[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Oh, and about the wolves... Japanese wolves have been extinct for an excessively long time, and it's unlikely that any would be on the island

I refuse to think the wolves are native of the island, it's impossible. The family has been living on Rokkenjima for 30 years and no wolf has ever been found. Kinzo himself stopped telling to Rudolf that there were wolves in the island after a while.

The wolf theory can only have a small degree of probability if you imagine that they were deported there very recently.

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

Oh yeah, I wanted to bring up something I thought of earlier about Kyrie.
In episode 4, her telephone conversation with Battler. During the entire thing, she's being shot at by Yonichimaru, and the golden arrows are missing her on purpose, some grazing her.
Let's take a step back and look at this logically.
A woman is sitting on the floor, on the phone.
Someone is shooting at her with a gun
The shots miss around her head, but graze her
She relays that she is being shot at to the person on the phone
The person on the other end of the phone cannot hear these shots
Upon finding the body there is a hole in the head, with a stake in it
There are bullet holes next to the body
The door is locked but if the shooter had a master key, they could go into the room and shoot at her

So, doesn't something strike you? For someone to be shooting at Kyrie as she said the shooter would have to be standing in the room with her, calmly letting her talk while taking potshots. But, then there's the problem Battler never hearing the shots. We could claim that there is a silencer on the gun, but from earlier statements, the gun is likely a magnum or a Winchester, neither of which can be silenced. Also, while this could just be a slip on the story's part, Battler never comments on Kyrie's graze. So:
A: The shooter was in the room shooting at Kyrie (contradicts what she's saying to Battler, and the auditory evidence)
B: The bullet holes were shot into the wall after death (contradicts what she's saying)
C: The bullet holes were there before death (contradicts what she's saying)
D: The shooting and the murder happened at a different time other than the call
E: The call never took place

You are forgetting another possibility. Kyrie was sniped. However this is problematic. Battler didn't notice any window broken. Kyrie had no reason to lie. Kyrie could have found a way to cover from the fire.

Originally Posted by Nadeor

On a side question here

Has anyone heard of the "Blair Witch Project" ?
I heard it's somewhat similar to Umineko and has given Ryukishi ideas for the story

I'm sure Ryukishi said in an old interview that he got the idea about Higurashi after seeing the "Blair witch project".
The connection is with Higurashi not Umineko.

Ah here is where I heard it: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1262

[Klashikari]

Speaking of window, there is no actual guarantee the culprit didn't replace windows during their deeds.
In fact, in episode 3, I suspected something of that kind: sure enough, the windows and doors were locked, but there was no guarantee that any of these were definitely intact.

Replacing a glass wouldn't be that hard, the only problem is the size of the glass and the time require to replace it without it being noticeable.

[MeoTwister5]

Umm... can someone give me their POV on the whole "Rosa rips Sakutaro in half and Maria asks Beato for powers to kill Rosa" scene? It just felt so... out of place, like it was there to win sympathy votes for Maria's situation.

I mean, is it part of her diary or something? A child can't easily let go of such an event and the emotions attached to it, and yet on the events of October the relationship between mother and daughter seems so typical of their already bad relationship, there's little trace of Maria's supposedly vengeful intentions.

[Klashikari]

Although Maria never was shown with a definite persona for "vengeance", the whole setup made it completely logical: Sakutarou was portrayed as her only friend and emotional support.
To see her own beloved mother ripping off in a tantrum is enough to rend most child heart in a single blow.
And since Maria is quite a sensible girl to begin with, it isn't even surprising that she goes berserk. That said, it is alo possible the events didn't happen exactly like this considering the narration, but it IS within the scope of her character.


That also explain why she is so detached when people tell her that Rosa died. Yes, a part of it is probably that she strongly believe everyone will be resurrected at the Golden Land, but that alone dosn't suffice.

[MeoTwister5]

Or, in a simplistic POV, it's an in-your-face indication of motive.

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm wait wait... I'm confused now, I think I don't remember well the first twilight...

According to the antimystery perspective:

Genji, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Rosa ... they all got shot in the head.

Then Gaap appeared and used her powers to throw in Jail: Nanjo, Kyrie, Shannon, Kanon, Krauss.

Kumasawa and Gohda escaped.

So uhm Rosa was revived to let Maria have her personal vengeance? I didn't think about it until now...

nyway, does anyone remember what the victory conditions are in Umineko besides finding the gold?

I have missed this. There are two different games in the game.
-According to the Beatrice that wrote the letters: the winning condition is solving the riddle and finding the gold. If even a single person does that, the witch's ritual will end.
-According to the battle in the meta-world: the winning condition happens when the witch's side is unable to counter all the "human culprit theories" to explain the various murders. It is not necessary to find the truth, and because of that twisted logic and twisted arguments can be used effectively. However as long as there is even a single murder that can't be explained with a human culprit, the witch's side won't lose. And as long as Battler doesn't fully accept the witch's existence the human side won't lose. No wonder Lambdadelta is so sure no one will win.

[Kitsu]

As far as I understood, Maria imagined to kill Rosa to calm her raging heart. She often imagines to kill other people...everytime she starts to laugh that creepy love. And everytime she wants everyone to be happy she makes "uu". That's what I got out of Episode 4

Oh and...
Did anyone notice. The witch side uses the red truth and everyone of the humans using magic in the games are using "red" for example Kanons sword thingy is red, the barriers are red.
Isn't it strange that Battler who uses the "blue truth" uses a color only used by witches and so? The stakes sword thingy is blue(ish), Ronoves barrier is blueish and so on

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

As far as I understood, Maria imagined to kill Rosa to calm her raging heart. She often imagines to kill other people...everytime she starts to laugh that creepy love. And everytime she wants everyone to be happy she makes "uu". That's what I got out of Episode 4

Quite not. Her kihihihi is just her creepy behaviour regarding witch etc. She never had any blood lust over any character except Rosa (and to very lessen extent, Ange).
Aside of ep4 regarding Rosa, she never imagine people killed by her, but she was indeed gloating when people die while the survivors are in jeopardy.

Oh and...
Did anyone notice. The witch side uses the red truth and everyone of the humans using magic in the games are using "red" for example Kanons sword thingy is red, the barriers are red.
Isn't it strange that Battler who uses the "blue truth" uses a color only used by witches and so? The stakes sword thingy is blue(ish), Ronoves barrier is blueish and so on

They use purp, not blue.

[Kitsu]

For me it looked blue o.O
Gosh I need to see a doc. Well the red thing is still true. But bet Ryuukishi just thought red looks cooler.


About Maria hm I came to that conclusion because after she was awoken from her oh so bloody dream she laughed that creepy laugh looking at Battler. Saying she would forgive him(for being made fun of). And in her dream everytime she made or laughed "hi" Rosa was salughtered once again and she wanted or killed Rosa so long until she could forgive her for ripping Sakutaro

[Jan-Poo]

Gosh I need to see a doc.

Or adjust your monitor gamma XD
I also see it as purple °°; and Battler uses "light blue".

[NorthernFallout]

Wow, I also thought it was the same color. Clears that up.
Damn me and my colorblindness *shakes fist*

[theacefrehley]

Don't know if it's the right thread, but, does anyone have any news on EP5?
Will it be at middle August Comiket, as usual?
What a pain if it is...

[Klashikari]

There is still no fresh news on Ryukishi's diary, though at least he isn't crippled by a fever (unlike for episode 4) or totally depressed (before episode 2 completion). So far, it is very likely it will be released for this summer Comiket, yes.

[Hareoic]

Spoiler for Crazier than Battler's theories:

If you don't consider them people, you could say a robot killed Battler at the end of episode four. Of course, this would be a very disappointing explanation, but still, it doesn't seem like anything's been said against it.

[actawesome]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There is still no fresh news on Ryukishi's diary, though at least he isn't crippled by a fever (unlike for episode 4) or totally depressed (before episode 2 completion). So far, it is very likely it will be released for this summer Comiket, yes.

Wow, that sounds interesting. I cannot read Japanese whatsoever, but this still interests me.


Can you tell me how Ryukishi was depressed? Or what he was like when he had the fever? (I'm not asking for translations, too much work, just a little summary.)

Thanks~

[actawesome]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Spoiler for Crazier than Battler's theories:

If you don't consider them people, you could say a robot killed Battler at the end of episode four. Of course, this would be a very disappointing explanation, but still, it doesn't seem like anything's been said against it.

What if it was the typhoon? Has anyone said this before?

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by actawesome

What if it was the typhoon? Has anyone said this before?

Yeah, some people have speculated that it's a named typhoon that just so happens to be called Beatrice. Check a few pages back.

[Squirrellord]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uhm wait wait... I'm confused now, I think I don't remember well the first twilight...

According to the antimystery perspective:

Genji, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Rosa ... they all got shot in the head.

Then Gaap appeared and used her powers to throw in Jail: Nanjo, Kyrie, Shannon, Kanon, Krauss.

Kumasawa and Gohda escaped.

So uhm Rosa was revived to let Maria have her personal vengeance? I didn't think about it until now...

Of course, you can't say that any of that happened for sure. If we want to say that Battler is a reliable narrator (which, I think that just in 4 he is not), then we can conclude that anything he hasn't seen didn't happen, and that he didn't see Beatrice either, since that happened on the 10th Night.
We can get a large amount of theories and conspiracies if we decide that there were no magic arrows, that nobody was captured, there was no jail break, etc etc. The only things we have to support those claims are Gohda and Kumasawa's testimonies (which may be partly true, the shootings may have happened and they escaped), and the phone calls, which could be faked some way, some how (Mysterious Voice Faker Device X). This would explain the corpses all being centered around the main house, and no where near Kuwadorian.

Oh, and earlier, about Kyrie being sniped...
There was another possibility, which I'm stupid for not seeing. The shooter was on the other side of the wall and shooting in. If we disregard Kyrie talking about the keyhole (obviously magic), then we can assume that the bullets weren't coming at her from the front.
We hear a door open and close, and we assume somebody has left... but we always have to remember that somebody could have come in just as easily (this isn't anything to do with Umineko)

[Shinndou]

It's been a while since I played EP4 but last night I've been casually thinking about it so I wanted to be sure of something first. Could anyone remind me how many people received that letter with the bank account number, besides Nanjo's son and Kumasawa's son?

One thing I remember from episode 3 is that the number is painted with blood on a door, and the TIPS suggest that it's referred as a door towards a small Golden Land. Now, the number uses Battler's birthday as the first part (07151129), however we don't know what the other numbers mean. I know people have been speculating that it's a time, but what if it's an other date?

For that reason, there's one thing I keep thinking of. We know from this episode that Battler, the one we know, is not Asumu's son. However, Asumu had a child. What happened to this child? What if he/she purposely decided to take some sort of revenge on the whole Ushiromiya family, and have Battler suffer the most out of it always by keeping him for the last "twilight" murder? An other thing: have we been told that there are 17 living human beings on the island, or is that there are 17 "living identities" on the island? I'm asking this because as a matter of fact if Asumu's "child" is on the island he/she might be using the same identity as Battler, both going by the same name. Two different beings sharing the same name. That would also explain how it's possible for Battler to "die" at the end of EP4. Is it suicide? It can't be. Homicide? Ushiromiya Battler kills Ushiromiya Battler. However, that would still leave one living "Battler" on the island, but we could say that this Battler could throw that identity and embrace a new one, therefore definitivelt killing "Ushiromiya Battler". Tricky. I can't recall during Episode 4 if it was asked whether there were any leaving beings left after "Ushiromiya Battler"'s death or not. That would be helpful to understand if I'm on the right track or if I'm completely off.

Anyway, that's why I think that 1129 could be a date. It could either be the birthday of Asumu's Battler, or it could be the day of Asumu's death.

It's clear that the person who wrote that number is familiar with Battler's personal details, and the fact that specific number combination is used means that the perpetrator wants Battler to recognize it.
As for the question regarding how many people have received that letter containing that number, it makes me think that originally the perpetrator was probably and originally planning to split the Ushiromiya's fortune between the people who served Kinzo (rather than handing it to the Ushiromiya family members), but then something happened and the plans changed.

EP3 Tips on Nanjo somehow made me speculate that, when it says: "Just a little longer and he probably would have been able to return alive. However, in the very end, the witch did not permit that."

This kind of makes me think there was some sort of agreement between some of the people to split Ushiromiya's fortune, but eventually things changed and the plan got altered.

[Hareoic]

The only hole I can think of right now for that theory is that Battler stopped attending the conferences six years ago, so 11/29 or November 29th would have been after the conference. And if I remember correctly, he stopped after Rudolf remarried, which happened after Asumu's death.