2009-05-20, 14:17 | Link #1 | |||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Remembering Tiananmen, 20 years on
What was the Incident? Quote:
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2009-05-20, 15:38 | Link #2 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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The thing that really bothers me is when the Chinese government attempts to *suppress* grieving over controversial incidents - whether it be Tiananmen, the recent "poor construction" earthquake massacre of the young, or whatever. It shows a very deep lack of understanding of human emotions and motivations.
I can't think of anything more stupid to do than deny a parent the right to grieve over their one and only child being lost or to not *address* the situation and hold those accountable (corruption, greed). Otherwise, the PRC is creating a group of people who have nothing left to lose..... f*ing brilliant, dumbasses. People with nothing left to lose come after dumbasses in the night... I have great respect for a 5000+ year old culture... but as Zhao points out nicely, it doesn't mean that sometimes a cadre of cya-dumbasses doesn't make things worse with knee-jerk reactivity.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2009-05-20 at 18:55. |
2009-05-20, 17:25 | Link #3 | |
Good-Natured Asshole.
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 34
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It's not like they don't understand - I believe they're damn scared of the possibility. Of course, I'm also not averse to believing that government corruption forces all sympathy to a backseat where those who actually care have their political lifespans significantly reduced - because someone else gets less bribe money if they showed any signs of caring. ============================================== Meanwhile, I'll leave this here. The whole thing is in Chinese (with only the first part of 20 subbed), but some very rare and powerful images there. You can probably figure out that this is a Taiwanese production. It contains images of the events in detail over several months before the actual crackdown on June 4, including the extent of public participation and negotiations before the Politburo decided to use force. I find that one of the reasons the whole thing failed is that the university students involved didn't really think the whole thing through. Yes, they pressed for changes, not an outright revolution, but they were shown to not know exactly what happens after that. Besides the fact that hardliners won't trust them anyway, I think they plunged in not knowing completely what they're doing, and the government took that chance. A very diverse bunch of people were interviewed, including a teacher working at one of the participating universities (and supported the movement herself), a few regular workers, a writer (who was a child when Mao was in power and experienced his full cult personality), and a former government official who was sympathetic as she watched from the administration buildings. The entire playlist is here: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...38BF24000377A1 There's an English transcript here, but no guarantees on how you can exactly follow it along with the video. If you want people to translate a segment, I'm certain there are enough Chinese-speaking posters here who can help. http://www.tsquare.tv/film/transcript01.html |
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2009-05-20, 18:36 | Link #4 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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When the armed forces pledge their loyalties to the Party and not to the state, you already have a serious problem here. Still, the students back in 1989 misjudged the military. Unlike the Russian troops who refused to fire during the crisis which saw Gorbachev under house arrest in his dacha, the Chinese troops did fire, and how...
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2009-05-20, 19:05 | Link #5 | |
Good-Natured Asshole.
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 34
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If you look at the videos there were images of the Beijing-based soldiers who were initially deployed days before reluctantly accepting presents from insistent protesters. They were really having a hard time staying steeled and silent on their troop transports. The unit that killed the most protesters in Tiananmen was the "highly disciplined" 27th Group Army, which participated in the Korean War directly against the U.S. 1st Marine Division. The unit was stationed in the province surrounding Beijing but did not directly serve the city. |
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2009-05-20, 19:15 | Link #6 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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....which goes to show that they are at least human. No doubt, the soldiers would be prosecuted by the higher-ups if they knew about the gifts. This is also an example on how regionalism works in China. As long as they don't piss off any side too much, regional leaders rule like feudal lords.
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2009-05-20, 19:45 | Link #7 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
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I heard that a lot of the soldiers were brought up from Sechuan deliberately since they couldn't understand the Beijing dialect. I don't know if this has any truth, however.
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Sadly, with the new generation of Chinese replacing the previous one, this even (or the truth of it) is being removed from the collective knowledge of the Chinese nation. Anyone who took part in the protests is in their 40's now, and few of them are brave enough to bring it up to their children (or anyone, for that matter), and many have given up their youthful idealism and returned to the darkness. |
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2009-05-20, 19:54 | Link #8 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Well, I won't be surprised that the troops from Sichuan doesn't understand Mandarin, especially those who don't have formal education (Mandarin as we know it is the Beijing dialect and is the official standard).
Arguably, the biggest obstacle to China today is corruption. How best to tackle it is a debate for another day. However, the party must realise that centralisation is not the way to go.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-05-20 at 22:34. |
2009-05-22, 00:46 | Link #9 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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China defends Tiananmen crackdown
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2009-05-22, 00:47 | Link #10 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Tiananmen dissident calls for 'White China' day
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2009-05-22, 00:49 | Link #11 |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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Mr. Hu and his vile comrades might read this book called Atlas Shrugged. It may change their outlooks. China has become the shining beacon of collectivism it isn't even nice to look at. Whenever I see "great" marvels by them, it is unavoidable to think of the liberties trampled by the commies to make it so.
See the Olympics, that was fake as hell. No "genuine" spirit and all show. Those smiles are fake. I am almost sure of that. |
2009-05-22, 00:58 | Link #14 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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Well, the 20th threw out absolute monarchies in WWI, threw out European democracy in WWII, and experimented with communism. Hell yeah, the experiment is still on. In fact, it would probably never end.
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2009-05-22, 01:23 | Link #15 |
Takao Tsundere Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Classified
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This incident is China's greatest shame along with the Earthquake incident, the tainted Milk Scandal, the Tibet problem & the 2008 Olympics & the reason why many Chinese or those of Chinese descent cannot feel proud of their country of origin.
What worst is most of today's generation of Mainland Chineses don't know anything about this incident unless they travel abroad. And even if they did knew, they can never talk about it in public for fear of repercussion by the PRC. The PRC is giant totalitarian nation of lies. If claims to be a perfect nation for the world to follow when in reality it's run by corruption, dirty politics, greed, lies & powermongers.
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2009-05-22, 01:35 | Link #16 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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All of human history is about "government" and what kind works best for the most people. Most of it boils down to a small few attempting to dominate the many so they can pillage and loot whatever corresponds to the productive value from the many.
One can praise the rich deep lengthy culture of China (of which Chinese are very rightfully proud of) while still realizing its been mostly run by a few bullies be they "royal" (Imperial) or "commie" (PRC) or "autocratic" (Taiwan under the General). I have a lifelong suspicion of anyone who *wants* to be in charge of more than a handful of people
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2009-05-22, 01:35 | Link #17 | ||
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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The Party knows that it has serious internal problems, but I don't think the solutions it proposes would work. Quote:
“The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest possible amount of feathers with the smallest possible amount of hissing.” While Colbert used this to describe taxation, it could very well be used for government and business in general.
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2009-05-22, 01:53 | Link #18 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
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The difference between India and China though, is that China has the Party. The Party is what is responsible for June 4th, Tibet, the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward, the persecution of Falungong, among other various crimes. It is a sort of system that provides a great gathering spot for all the corrupt scum of society to run the country like a mafia. Everything the Party does is for its own survival; the condition of China itself couldn't matter less to them. I don't know all that much about India (I know it's corrupt as hell), but at least their government isn't such that it systematically terrorizes its populace or kills millions of people.
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I should probably add that its not just China that has lost much of its former essence, many nations have the same grave problem. |
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2009-05-22, 01:57 | Link #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
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It is a method of redistribution of wealth which drives economy. It's used to develop social infrastuctures that no single establishment will develop. For example the military has an welfare aspect which provide business training and employment. It also provides companies with jobs ordering multi-million dollar project but when it becomes over inflated like the US military then it becomes a problem both to maintain itself and keep companies specialized in military contracts alive. The abuse of power is the biggest problem in maintaining a government. Like the saying goes "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". The military industrial complex was one of the reasons that led Japan into the Pacific war. |
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2009-05-22, 01:58 | Link #20 |
Observer/Bookman wannabe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 38
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You're confusing the Party structure under Mao, and today. The great killer events can be put down to Mao. GLF is his idea, along with the CR. It was after those total disasters that the Party decided to enforce the "first among equals" rule more rigidly. Many people tend to forget that Mao was merely a "first among equals". However, his team made the mistake of entrusting in him too much power, people like Zhou Enlai, Liu Shaoqi and others.
Taxation has never been evil. It is excessive taxation that's the problem. Also, some of us do know what has been lost. That's why we look to Korea and Japan who (despite localisation) has preserved some of China's culture from ages past. While it is true that a lot can be undone in a short period of time, communism in China is far from 100 years old. Counting the rise of Mao, it's about 80 years, and changes have been around for the past few decades. Besides corruption, China also faces a graying population. It is very possible for the Party to completely mess this one up. Then, we have a problem.
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Last edited by yezhanquan; 2009-05-22 at 02:17. |
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