To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Character Discussion - Shirai "Jealousy" Kuroko

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

Given teleportation's most logical mechanism there is no warping of space-time involved. Teleportation is, by necessity, instantaneous or else it is just regular movement.

In TAMNI, there is warping as the teleporting object displaces what was previously occupying the space where it arrives. Otherwise I cannot see how the displacement could take place (other than moving whatever object was in the space to a different dimension)

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

ARE YOU SURE?

Frontal Lobe- associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, emotions, and problem solving.

And if you think you don't use math outside of the classroom...

Actually the angular gyrus is responsible for simple calculations, and more complex calculations are simply groups of simple calculations strung together. For most powers there would also be the whole spatial element which would involve the right parietal lobe.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Teleportation in this story is when they move objects through the 11th dimension to reach their destination.

That's such a vague and nebulous explanation. I don't think that there is another dimension that they're dealing with.
One version of string theory,M-Theory, has 11 dimensions and it is a unifying theory that deals with strings, but the implications of that are a little fuzzy.
Most likely teleportation has to do with quantum superpositioning.
To make it simple imagine you put schrodinger's cat in a box then put that box in a warehouse of other identical boxes. According to quantum superpositioning that cat would be in all of the boxes at once. Teleportation would allow one to exploit this by being able to actually make the cat move from one box to the other. Displacing would be automatic if this happened because this would mean that the teleported object replaced the original's place in existence.
It's the most rational explanation given what I know of ESPer powers (it fits very well with the idea of personal reality). As shown by the fact that it did not instantaneously materialize Awaki's power is not this, but Kuroko's still might be.

[leukrota]

Don't forget that it's only pseudoscience what is used in this fiction, it isn't exactly sci-fi.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

As shown by the fact that it did not instantaneously materialize Awaki's power is not this, but Kuroko's still might be.

That's because we haven't seen Kuroko teleport anything truly massive.

And because she can't.

Well, they call it the 'hypothetical 11th dimension' if it means anything to you.

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

That's because we haven't seen Kuroko teleport anything truly massive.

And because she can't.

Well, they call it the 'hypothetical 11th dimension' if it means anything to you.

But we do see that her teleportation is instantaneous. We also see that it redefines the object's current velocity, which is interesting in its own right.

[leukrota]

Don't mind me, I'm just randomly hitting the keyboard. Any resemblance with coherent speech is merely coincidental.

*Sits in a corner, grumbling*

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

But we do see that her teleportation is instantaneous. We also see that it redefines the object's current velocity, which is interesting in its own right.

For smaller objects sure, even Move Point was 'instantaneous'.

Originally Posted by leukrota

Don't mind me, I'm just randomly hitting the keyboard. Any resemblance with coherent speech is merely coincidental.

*Sits in a corner, grumbling*

*pat pat*

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Don't mind me, I'm just randomly hitting the keyboard. Any resemblance with coherent speech is merely coincidental.

*Sits in a corner, grumbling*

-pats leukrota's head- there there, I'm listening to you, it's just that in an argument about fictional physics bringing in the fact that it's fiction ruins the fun of it.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

For smaller objects sure, even Move Point was 'instantaneous'.

Yeah, that doesn't really make sense. Though I suppose you could use the concept of M-theory to explain it.

[leukrota]

Hmmm... ok, since you want to use real science, using the quantum superposition, why are objects displaced when Kuroko teleports something into them?

If I understand that theory correctly, the teleported object would need the (entangled) energy available at the spot where it is to appear in order to reconstruct itself.

BTW, an unfortunate consequence of her power being used under this theory would be that Kuroko kills herself (and anyone she carries) every time she teleports

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Hmmm... ok, since you want to use real science, using the quantum superposition, why are objects displaced when Kuroko teleports something into them?

If I understand that theory correctly, the teleported object would need the (entangled) energy available at the spot where it is to appear in order to reconstruct itself.

BTW, an unfortunate consequence of her power being used under this theory would be that Kuroko kills herself (and anyone she carries) every time she teleports

Well that's getting into the whole question of "Prestige", but technically QSP is the only method of teleportation where that doesn't happen.
Quantum super-positioning would mean that an object's existence would shift to another place on the argument that it was technically there to begin with due to electron clouds being technically unbounded. Anything that was there to begin with would be displaced because electrons repel each other. No additional energy is needed in this case because nothing is changed. the cat was simply in that other box all along, even if only technically.

[leukrota]

OK... let's see if I'm getting it... no wait, I'm more confused now.

Does this imply an initial composite of quantum states accounting for a virtual omnipresence, where Kuroko choses the outcome (the place to be) among infinite posibilities of existence?

Or does she create the desired quantum state on the fly and simply shifts between just two possibilities?

Also, about the displacement, wouldn't the electron repulsion explode the two superposed objects if one isn't moved beforehand?

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by leukrota

OK... let's see if I'm getting it... no wait, I'm more confused now.

Does this imply an initial composite of quantum states accounting for a virtual omnipresence, where Kuroko choses the outcome (the place to be) among infinite posibilities of existence?

Or does she create the desired quantum state on the fly and simply shifts between just two possibilities?

Also, about the displacement, wouldn't the electron repulsion explode the two superposed objects if one isn't moved beforehand?

The repulsion isn't that strong.
And it would be the former. That is the definition of super-positioning though technically the extent of it would simply be the later since she can only choose origin and target, but she can choose the target within a 2.5million cubic meter sphere so the possibilities of existence are hardly slight.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

The repulsion isn't that strong.

I'm not talking about atomic-strength explosion, but how the... vectors, would be all over the place if the teleported object appears in the same place as another.

... Or would the objects merge?... although that's not what happens here, there's a clear displacement.

Basically my concern is how can the teleported object remain unharmed in the event of physical superposition.

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by leukrota

I'm not talking about atomic-strength explosion, but how the... vectors, would be all over the place if the teleported object appears in the same place as another.

... Or would the objects merge?... although that's not what happens here, there's a clear displacement.

Basically my concern is how can the teleported object remain unharmed in the event of physical superposition.

it's simple electromagnetic repulsion, no nuclear explosions. The objects wouldn't merge but they would be as close as physically possible. The teleported object remains unharmed because there is nothing that would harm it and when there is, for example a large concrete pillar, the object is harmed.
There would be no vectors because there is no movement

[leukrota]

So at worst, Kuroko would be passing gas all the time, due to the absorption of the accumulated air from the places she teleports to.

Maybe that's the real reason Mikoto tries to avoid her all the time.

[tsunade666]

you guys are making it more complicated. teleport in tamni works the same as warp technology. the object is send through 11th dimension and squeeze back into this dimension.

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

you guys are making it more complicated. teleport in tamni works the same as warp technology. the object is send through 11th dimension and squeeze back into this dimension.

There is no proof that that is how all the teleporters teleport and it makes no sense in terms of personal reality. Quantum Super-positioning is perfect in that regards so it is way way more likely.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

you guys are making it more complicated. teleport in tamni works the same as warp technology. the object is send through 11th dimension and squeeze back into this dimension.

Well, I know, but it's still fun to play along a thought experiment.

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

There is no proof that that is how all the teleporters teleport and it makes no sense in terms of personal reality. Quantum Super-positioning is perfect in that regards so it is way way more likely.

At the least that's how Kuroko does it, according to her own statements.

...You may have the wrong impression of personal reality. ALL Espers have it, independently of what's their ability, and I can't see Quantum Mechanics explaining them all.

[Dyingbreath]

Originally Posted by leukrota

At the least that's how Kuroko does it, according to her own statements.

Where exactly does she say that.

Originally Posted by leukrota

...You may have the wrong impression of personal reality. ALL Espers have it, independently of what's their ability, and I can't see Quantum Mechanics explaining them all.

You can explain everything through quantum mechanics, that's the point of quantum mechanics. Quantum physics leads to regular physics which leads to everything else (except math but to hell with math).

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

Where exactly does she say that.

Hmm... I don't feel like searching the manga, but here's something from the novels

Spoiler for TAMNI Vol.8:

This is from the narrator:

Because of the noise disturbance, Shirai’s teleportation failed. When she used her teleportation, she had to define the three dimensions by using the theory of the eleventh dimension, and use the resulting values to recalculate and redefine them. The process was extremely complicated, and it sometimes failed due to sudden anxiety or surprise.

Here's something Uiharu told Kuroko about the search for Awaki:

“First, regarding the teleporter. Searching through the records, including you, there are 58 such espers in Academy City. As expected of an ability which requires the calculation and manipulation of the 11th dimension, there aren’t a lot of people who know how to use it.”

Which actually suggests that all AC teleporters do use the 11th dimension. Or at least that's what Uiharu thinks so.

There are further mentions of the 11th dimension in that volume. You can go see for yourself.

If you're still dissatisfied I can search the manga. I could swear Kuroko mentions it somewhere.

Originally Posted by Dyingbreath

You can explain everything through quantum mechanics, that's the point of quantum mechanics. Quantum physics leads to regular physics which leads to everything else (except math but to hell with math).

I can't say I'm an physics expert, but wasn't the whole problem with quantum mechanics that it could not explain everything?

Which is the reason of the constant search for a different theory that can, being the M-theory, strings and superstring attempts at doing just that.