Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

then they would be able to say "we're not just doing it for money... we're doing it for a shitload of money"
which changes things somewhat

Awesome Spaceballs reference

Hmm, actually what they could do is, rather than just remaking R2 as they had originally planned into another 25 episode series, they could make an OVA or movie or something that would basically be a synopsis of their original idea.

[bladeofdarkness]

they could release another episode of the OVA every few months
like macross zero did
bleed out wallets dry more effectively

[roriconfan]

Hey, it worked for Advent children, it worked for Dragonball Kai, it will sell a shitload of money for a R2 remake too.... Actually it will sell no matter the amount of remakes... Fanfiction has so much to offer.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Hey, it worked for Advent children, it worked for Dragonball Kai, it will sell a shitload of money for a R2 remake too.... Actually it will sell no matter the amount of remakes... Fanfiction has so much to offer.

I don't know about Advent Children, but Dragonball Kai isn't really a remake. It's just a hi-def re-airing of Dragonball Z, minus the filler. There's nothing new to it. Actually, I think anything new and Code Geass-related would sell a shitload of money.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I don't know about Advent Children, but Dragonball Kai isn't really a remake. It's just a hi-def re-airing of Dragonball Z, minus the filler. There's nothing new to it.

Meh, some will argue saying that they have redrawn several scenes altogether.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Meh, some will argue saying that they have redrawn several scenes altogether.

Still, no new content.

[Xander]

I'm sure that the franchise will continue, but I'm merely very skeptical about a full length remake airing on TV again. New Code Geass animated productions are always possible though, but that says nothing about their content.

The original Gundam series was never really remade either, for example, it was just adapted into a set of compilation movies. Most of the Gundam franchise is made up of new and increasingly unrelated stories.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Remaking Code Geass R2 would be the equivalent of Taniguchi and Okouchi saying "We fucked up", they are not going to do that, Taniguchi and Okouchi are much to proud for that.

Depends. As much as I've already said what I think about the subject, now that you've mentioned this...technically speaking, any remake (or alternative version, or any otherwise unrelated Code Geass product) wouldn't necessarily require the same staff to come back. I'm assuming that Sunrise could essentially re-use the franchise name and its basic concepts in many different ways, like they've done with Gundam.

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Hey, it worked for Advent children, it worked for Dragonball Kai, it will sell a shitload of money for a R2 remake too.... Actually it will sell no matter the amount of remakes... Fanfiction has so much to offer.

Advent Children is a sequel, not a remake, since it takes place after all the events of the FFVII game. It's also not a very good movie, outside of the graphics and action sequences, but that's a different matter.

The point is that "making more money" doesn't equal "making a remake" or anything similar.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Xander

The point is that "making more money" doesn't equal "making a remake" or anything similar.

Yes it does.

[Aqua Knight]

7/10
Great animation, music etc.etc. but for me it's really kinda a DN rip.
I know you can prove me wrong but I really feel like that.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Yes it does.

Yes, that's why the Gundam franchise is made up of remakes instead of different stories.

In any event...I've already said enough.

[bladeofdarkness]

sorry about the text wall
but it cant be made shorter, and it is my take on improving the show

a while back someone (cant remember who) posted a question requesting that people explain to him what part of the last story arc was "poor writing"
while what they asked for originally was plot holes
i gave it some extra thought and came up with a better question
|assuming that the overall story has to remain the same, what would i do differently in the final arc that would make it more coherent and clear"
the answers were surprisingly simple once i gave it some thought

so without farther ado
here is some of what i would have done in way that would not change the overall story, but would make the overall final arc more clear and less wallbangery

1)suzaku's fight with the KoR
the first thing would be to remove Dorothea and replaced her with Nonette
yes, i know she's suppose to be popular from lost colors, and frankly i dont care
they created her to be in the anime, so put her in the fucking anime instead of creating a new character no one ever heard of to get offed for no real reason
and after suzaku finishs with the rest of the KoR and has to face bismark have him struggle for a while, and then do that whole "even if you can see my movement..." bit WITHOUT needing a live geass as a power up
it makes suzaku seem more badass if he beats a geass enabled bismark WITHOUT having to resort to an ass-pull super power for no reason (needless to say, all future apperance of the "live" geass as a power up is erased)
have suzaku just be super badass pilot with super badass reflexes and a super badass mecha
thats what he had been so far, why change it.

2)sayoko, gilford, and cornellia stay DEAD (i would have included nunnaly, but that would make it too much of a downer ending)
they serve no purpose and take away screen time that i would use for my more importent detail of #3
it also makes more sense, as shnizel not killing sayoko (lelouch's ninja who came to kidnap nunnaly) the moment he saw her makes no sense
nor does him treating cornellia and then leaving her on the OOBK's home base when he knows that she objects to his plans (and would be able to TELL THEM ABOUT IT)
gilford is self explanatory (it cancels out an awesome sacrifice)

3)use the two minutes of screen time you gain from #2 to make the OOBK's role in this battle more clear
after ep 19 most of them arent very likable, and having them join shnizel is not likely to improve this
so giving them scenes like "ougi and villeta's talk about her having a baby" or giving toudo the "i can still fight" scene is meaningless since we no longer care about them enough to care

use the time you gain from #2 to make it clear WHY they are joining shnizel
make it clear that they dont WANT to work with him, but are without choice as lelouch's army is much more powerful and they need the help
make it clear that they are opposing lelouch, not because he has a geass, but because he just launched an all out attack on them and conquered their country
make it clear that they are opposing him because he kidnapped their leaders and is trying to wipe them out and conquer the world (as far as they know)

and most importently
make it clear that they are NOT SHNIZEL'S ARMY
they are their OWN side in this conflict, and shnizel is and ALLY of necessity
make it clear that they are in fact, UNDER ATTACK from lelouch, and are acting in SELF DEFENSE
make it clear that if shnizel decided to sit this one out, they would STILL BE FIGHTING LELOUCH

as it stands, this is probably the biggest flaw in the story (not the biggest wallbanger, but the biggest flaw)
lelouch is acting like a villain by his own admission
thats the whole point
but since the people he is acting like a villain TOWARDS never get proper attention, you dont get that point across
there is an insane amount of people who dont get what actually happened in the final arc because they didnt give enough attention to it
who actually think that lelouch didnt do anything wrong, and that the OOBK should have SIDED WITH HIM, rather then shnizel
not because they just adore lelouch (though some do)
but because they dont get that the OOBK and the UFN are the people who lelouch is ATTACKING, and that they CANT side with him no matter what

making lelouch's actions CLEARER makes it possible to understand the point behind Z-R more easily
and would have more people understand why he chose to die in the end

use most of the 2 minutes on properly stressing this point before and during the fight by having ougi xing-ke and toudo (the "smart ones") explain that they are under attack from lelouch and oppsing him for it, and NOT fighting him "because shenizel said so"
give gino about 10 seconds to explain WHY he's actually fighting with the OOBK against britannia
and use 20 of the remaining secs to flashing out kallens motives more
give her 7 seconds of showing genuniely conflicting emotions before the fight
use 3 seconds to show her hesitating before crushing him in ep 24 (also easier to explain how C.C has time to interfere
and use the last 10 seconds by having her question suzaku a bit more before their fight and have him give her some line that she can later go "oh, thats what he ment" during lelouch's death scene

4)THE BIG ONE
shnizel's defeat
while there have been books written on just how lousy shnizel's defeat was
there are two basic wall bangers in it that stand above all else
1)shnizel comes off as an idiot
2)lelouch comes off as omniscient (all knowing
both can be solved easily enough

when shnizel gets to the shuttle
he kanon and diethard walk it, and instead of a video recording, lelouch is sitting in the chair himself
the geassed guards walk in and detain all three villains, and lelouch's says "checkmate" or something
shnizel sits down in one of the chairs face to face with lelouch, and they have their talk from the anime about human nature
when its over and shnizel choose to end the conversation, he basically admits defeat, and tells lelouch to just get it over with
lelouch says " you still have a role to play" takes off his contacts, and geasses shnizel, who does not object or try to fight against it

that way
you remove the absurd idea of the video take
and instead of making shnizel out to be a complete idiot, you turn him into a graceful loser (it also removes the moral issues of having suzaku using him as a puppet after lelouch's death, since he basically accepts it)

if you really want, you can even have him understand lelouch's Z-R plan during their talk, which is why he accepts being geassed (he knows he would play a part in making the world a peaceful place)

....................................

these are the four big things i would change
it keeps the story far clearer, while not changing it at all

[Nobodyman9]

Wow. Excellent analysis blade. I have to say I pretty much agree with all of it. If I think about I guess there could be a few other things I'd like to change about the final ZR arc, but most of those have to do with the absurdity and arrogance of Lelouch's final plan, but that's just Lelouch being Lelouch, so nevermind.

And yeah, I really don't understand what the point was of bringing so many characters "back from the dead." Considering how many characters they bring back you'd think they were planning a direct sequel to the series so they could use them.

[bladeofdarkness]

while were at it
i have another solution to the "arrogance" problem that would make Z-R's final goal all the clearer as well
rather then doing the "take the worlds hate" crap that is unrealistic
think more focused on stopping shnizel and having world peace be a secondery goal

the damocles is a weapon that defies conventional warfare
no matter how large an army it faces, it would be impossible for normal people to defeat it
the OOBK couldnt possibly do it
all shnizel would have to do was aim it in japan's general direction and they would surrender immediately without a fight
and no commander would send his army against it knowing that it can kill thousands of his soldiers with every shot

thus
in order to defeat such a foe
you would need to become a complete monster without any remorse at all
you need to be someone who could care less if your entire country would be reduced to ashes
someone who could care less about the lives of your soldiers
someone for whom the threat of collateral damage is none existent
someone who is a bigger monster then shnizel
thats the only kind of person who could possibly defeat something like that

lelouch becomes a monster in order to defeat shnizel
he takes over britannia to give shnizel a bigger target
creates an army of disposable soldiers who he can waste by the thousands and not care at all
he attacks the OOBK and the UFN to makes them potential allies for shnizel, and thus sparing them from the flejia
and he defeats all of them and takes over the world as a RESULT
not a GOAL

but once he has conquered the world he is left with a problem
he has saved the world by taking over it
but he has become a monster in the process
and a monster like him should not rule the world, nor does it have a place in it
he is now, no longer trying to make a better world, but rather the obstacle to it
and so he has the whole "Zero assassination" plot as a SOLUTION to a PROBLEM that he has created by taking over the world

thus making the whole thing more realistic
the world becomes a more peaceful place
but not because of the bullshit reason that the anime gives (hate never disappears)
but because he got rid of all the really big monsters in the world (himself included) and left good people in charge to lead the world into a better tomorrow

it also makes lelouch more likable and heroic because
1)he does what he does to actually SAVE the world rather then because its what he WANTS to do
2)it shows that he still knows that while he may do what he does for a good reason, he still needs to pay for it, and that the world has no place for monsters like what he had to become
3)it makes his and suzaku's atonement more logical (they are paying for the things they did DURING the last arc)

i would even go so far as to say that under those conditions
with lelouch doing what he does because he has no other choice
i would even be willing to accept the possibility of him being alive in the end without it being a derailment (assuming its not according to plan)

[Nobodyman9]

Again, another great idea. The way they presented Schneizel in the final arc, to me, seemed like he was just a nuisance (a big nuisance, mind you) that Lelouch had to overcome to reach his final goal. I agree, Schneizel really should have been presented as more of a villain then they made him out to be. And Lelouch, subsequently, more of a hero.

[bladeofdarkness]

my point exactly
once you make it clear that lelouch does what he does in the last arc out of actual necessity in order to protect the world and all those he loves in it, rather then pride and a desire to atone
you make him much more heroic for it
and it carries forward the "becoming evil to defeat a greater evil" angle much more clearly then the anime version does
its also a better message then the anime version
rather then saying that you can make the world a better place through lies deceit and mass murder
you say that lelouch can not make the world a better place himself using those methods
but he could clear the path for those who can

[Xander]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

have suzaku just be super badass pilot with super badass reflexes and a super badass mecha
thats what he had been so far, why change it.

Despite what happened, I don't even think they did. I agree with putting Nonette back in though.

it also makes more sense, as shnizel not killing sayoko (lelouch's ninja who came to kidnap nunnaly) the moment he saw her makes no sense

I was about to say that it would make less sense, since both she and Nunnally were on the same shuttle, but...if you put it this way, I think it's possible although not a real necessity.

The show doesn't spell it out, but it can be deduced that Sayoko was imprisoned and got hurt while escaping from Schneizel. I don't really have any problem with that, you could assume that she was being interrogated and would eventually be killed, but I definitely agree about Guilford and, to a lesser extent, Cornelia either actually dying or... simply not messing around with them.

there is an insane amount of people who dont get what actually happened in the final arc because they didnt give enough attention to it

Point. The series did try to explain it, but didn't give nearly enough time to the subject and thus it wasn't easy to digest what had happened so quickly. Still, I don't think removing Geass from the equation is required, although leaving it in would also demand a closer examination of the issue, either during the betrayal or afterwards.

As for the last one, I don't really have anything else to comment on beyond agreeing with that possible scenario (out of several alternatives).

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Xander

Point. The series did try to explain it, but didn't give nearly enough time to the subject and thus it wasn't easy to digest what had happened so quickly. Still, I don't think removing Geass from the equation is required, although leaving it in would also demand a closer examination of the issue, either during the betrayal or afterwards.

As for the last one, I don't really have anything else to comment on beyond agreeing with that possible scenario (out of several alternatives).

are you talking about suzaku's "live" geass ?
because the reason i pointed it out was that it was simply not needed
suzaku just got the albion, and is already shown to be insanely skilled as a pilot
adding super powers to the equation just seems pointless at that stage, since all he does is go up against pilots who have machines considerably weaker then the albion
and so he doesnt need super powers to beat them
and then goes up against kallen, and finds that his powers arent enough to help him win anyway (against the only enemy who he would logicly need a power up)
its just a pointless

if you are talking about something else please explain it

and i'm glad you feel my scenario works
its basiclly just about removing un-necessary elements and focusing better on the actual importent parts of the story

i'll give you another example
what was nunnaly's role in that final arc exactly ?
so what if she ends up giving lelouch his "what the hell hero" speech
wasnt having her under shnizel's hands suppose to be a plot point ?
wasnt it suppose to make life harder for lelouch beyond just making him feel bad for 2 minutes ?
as it stands, it didnt amount to anything at all
or at least not nearly what it could/should have been
they made the last arc too rushed, and at the same time, added useless elements to the story
better cut down on those un-needed parts and focus on the actual story

[Xander]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

if you are talking about something else please explain it

No, that was pretty much it. The fact is I don't think removing that would have freed up any significant screentime.

Roughly speaking, I'd guess you would only save five seconds or less since Lelouch would have still congratulated Suzaku for his skill/victory. It's not like there was an entire sequence explaining how that worked (in fact, this was probably more of a problem than the actual ability).

About Nunnally, we could probably debate that a lot, but to sum it up very quickly...her main role, by that point in the story, was to display Lelouch's ability to overcome one of his greatest psychological handicaps (yes, his sister complex, if you will) in order to succeed. Nunnally had, directly or indirectly, been an obstacle that jeopardized his actions for far too long. He faced up to her. Could that have been handled differently? Sure, but that's what it was.

[bladeofdarkness]

well...
its not like there was much to overcome in the actual anime
he tells her off within seconds of learning she's alive
and continues Z-R with very few actual hickups

the whole thing is just a part of a larger problem with the arc that could have been fixed by simplifying it just a bit
all they had to do was make shnizel the focus of lelouch's plan rather then just an obstacle
make lelouch do what he does in the last arc for the sole purpose of stopping shnizel

as it stands, rather then making him a tragic hero who must throw away his humanity because its the only way to save the world from annihilation, and who later makes up for his crimes and "clears the way" for those who would make the world a better place by having his best friend remove the last obstacle (himself) and letting the world take what course it will (given that he trusts that people would make it a better place on their own)

they instead made him an arrogant jerkass who thinks that he knows what's best for the world and who opposes shnizel as a consequence of them both trying to pull off their version of a master plan for world peace
and who later pulls off his own xanatos gambit and creates a peace based on hatred and lies

this is a case of making something too big, and screwing it up in the process
lelouch would have came off as undeniably heroic if stopping shnizel was the GOAL of Z-R rather then one of the prerequisites to it

[Xander]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

well...
its not like there was much to overcome in the actual anime
he tells her off within seconds of learning she's alive
and continues Z-R with very few actual hickups

There's a couple of related scenes later on that are also important though, honestly, but I'll give you that the whole arc was rushed...then again, we all know that.

I don't think that eliminates the point, it was just deal with quickly, but it's there for the purposes of analysis.

all they had to do was make shnizel the focus of lelouch's plan rather then just an obstacle
make lelouch do what he does in the last arc for the sole purpose of stopping shnizel

I'm not sure that would be a better alternative, to be quite honest it doesn't convince me...if anything, I think the next two paragraphs are still up to interpretation in the show as it is instead of forcing any scenario over the other.

In other words, the viewers can always reach either conclusion depending on what they pay attention to (or not, as the case might have it). Simplification (or extension) is something I'd apply to the entire show first, not just this arc, before trying to change that last part in any significant manner.