[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[delita-umw-]

Fair enough. My criticisms rely on that scene and I assumed that those scenes were probably true, given the furniture scene was also shown with this, but I'll admit there's no way to show that they are.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by delita-umw-

Fair enough. My criticisms rely on that scene and I assumed that those scenes were probably true, given the furniture scene was also shown with this, but I'll admit there's no way to show that they are.

Your criticisms are relying on something incredibly ambiguous and out of context. As was already mentioned, there is more than one way to interpret that scene.

[Dr. Casey]

Indeed... but then, Umineko's writing is very layered. I honestly think there's multiple ways to interpret not just every scene, but every single line of dialogue in the series.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Is there anything that calls into question Kinzo's story besides the red guts scene, which is very questionable in it's trustworthiness?

I would say that scene calls into question Kinzo's motives, but may not actually call into question the mechanics of what happened on Rokkenjima during the war...

i.e. we now have a story where he was the dashing hero and honest man... and a hint that he may have been a master manipulator or something...

Originally Posted by delita-umw-

@Kylon
Is it true that during the Battler/Ange scene, Ange references someone talking about TV news claiming Kyrie had gangster relations? Cause if so, your thought process makes even more sense. Man, I feel like I should have dedicated more time to studying Japanese, so hard to keep up with you guys =P

[Responding from several pages back. Man you guys are going fast today. ]
No, it wasn't there. It's from Kyrie's TIPS, where it said, "She has served as Rudolf's right hand in several shady pieces of business, guiding them to success."

The original Japanese says: "留弗夫が手掛ける胡散臭い仕事の数々で右腕を務め、成功に導いてきた。"

Which could also meant that she did very shady things to make their business succeed. This TIPS for Kyrie has been there since EP1. No other sibling has something negative like this, except for Rosa who was said to have a company that wasn't doing very well.

So, it doesn't necessarily have any 'gang' connections per se; but I bet people in Rokkenjima Prime could've researched into what Kyrie did and found her suspicious. Whether that was actually true or not.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Is there anything that calls into question Kinzo's story besides the red guts scene, which is very questionable in it's trustworthiness?

Only one thing. And sadly I only know of this one line because I'm the George guy.

Episode 4: Gaap says "Goldsmith" chose the third choice in his trial.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Only one thing. And sadly I only know of this one line because I'm the George guy.

Episode 4: Gaap says "Goldsmith" chose the third choice in his trial.

Huh, that's true. But then again, I don't think that was referring to the garrison, but more like the actual setup of the dead man's switch. Sacrificing his family, and such.

[Mirrored]

Umineko 8 comes out in 3 days.

So, I'd like to say this.

Lay it out. Your answer, right now, to the best of your ability, to this story. What happened that October? Explain all the games as best as you can.

I laid out my answer:

The family has money problems and will kill each other when given the opportunity. Yasu and Jessica have arranged things so that a tragedy will occur and went through great effort to do so, they are the culprits. But, Episode 7 points out that it's not even necessary, this family would have done it even without that. So even without a single person or two people to blame, they would have killed anyways.

So, what's the truth you guys have found?

You won't ever get to do this again. No one after you will be able to do this again. We have the rare opportunity here to give our answer before we get one. So, I'd like to see what people come up with.

[Jan-Poo]

Well I believe I explained my theories many times in this forum but I guess it doesn't hurt to put them all together.
So here they are:

Spoiler for Huge block of theories:

First off definition of the cosmological rules:

-Beatrice's games are just games, in other words they are as true as any fiction and do not have any bearing in the real world.

-There is not a real "many world interpretation" in this story. The "fragments" are actually stories, the metaworld is a just a metaphor of something that happens in the real world and it's not something that exists by itself. Consequently Bern's power is only limited to browsing between many "stories", possibly even the unwritten ones. She can't really travel between many real worlds, because there's no such a thing as many real worlds. When you open the catbox only one possibility remains and that's the one and only reality, the rest is just speculation.



The Game:

-Even inside the fictions, no actual murder ever happens. This is a "game". When people "die" they die like "dying" in a game, and when they are killed they are killed like being "killed" inside a game. This is the very dirty trick that Ryuukishi used.

-The Game still has rules. The culprit needs to actually playact the murder actions, else this wouldn't be a fair murder mystery. So he actually needs to be there and "kill" the victim.

-Practically everyone knows the "game" and rolls with it. So more like being "accomplices" they simply know the rules and they'll say someone is dead even if they can clearly see he isn't. The GENSAWAJO was obviously informed beforehand. The adults gets informed almost invariably in every episode during the family conference.
Since Beatrice can take them by the balls, they have no choice but accept. The EP2 scene in the chapel was a huge hint.

-An option exists for the adults and anyone else to "win" without having to deal with Beatrice's crazy game. They just need to "solve" the epitaph. Beatrice doesn't have anything to gain if someone solves the epitaph. Of course not, that's her losing condition.
Who solves the epitaph gets the headship and the gold, leaving Beatrice without any way to control her pawns.

-The game is mainly a test to choose the new heir among the cousins. This has implications on Yasu's personal love interests choice. But she probably never told the adults about that... or maybe yes, I'm not sticking my head on this. Anyway who solves the mystery wins! Yasu secretly wishes that the one who will win will be Battler the same way Kinzo wished for Lion to solve the epitaph.

-The culprit is obviously Yasu herself or rather Beatrice, since this is how she calls herself at the time of the games.

-The bodies are either recreated via heavy make up or simply by using dummies. In at least a few cases dummies were certainly used.

-The line is cut by Genji himself in order to prevent clueless persons from alarming the police needlessly. The radio being broken is probably just a lie.

-Yasu arranged for a proper burial of Kinzo's corpse. That means Kinzo's body is always a dummy.

-The guns are loaded with blanks.

-The stakes are trick knives.

-Of course shkanontrice is true. I'm not sure if the adults are aware of this at any point.

-The one who meets Maria and gives her the umbrella is always shkanontrice. Kumasawa obviously covered Shannon's ass in Ep1


EP1 solution:

-First twilight. The six sacrifices are "killed" by Beatrice and taken out of the gameboard. They need to roll with it as per rules. Shannon's body is obviously a dummy. Hideyoshi needs to acknowledge it as a body as per rules.

-Second twilight. Beatrice "kills" both Hideyoshi and Eva. With the help of Genji as an accomplice she recreates the illusion of the impossible crime.

-fourth twilight. Obviously the dummy was placed inside the incenerator just before gathering people to the second twilight crime scene.

-fifth twilight. Kanon as a pawn is killed. Of course that means that Beatrice simply faked it all. with Nanjo covering his ass.

-the mysterious letter: It could have been anyone of the GENSAWAJO.

- Sixth, seventh, eight. Maria is made to turn around and sing a song so she wouldn't listen or see while the GENSAWAJO is "killed" either by wearing make up or by placing dummies. Beatrice then calls them by phone and place a letter for Natsuhi.

- Natsuhi faces Beatrice, either because so it's what Beatrice ordered her or because it's actually a way for her to "win". Either way she loses and must fake her death like the others. Battler can take her gun and fire at Beatrice he'd just be dumbfounded as to why Beatrice doesn't die. It doesn't matter. The time's up and everyone loses.


EP2 solution:

First twilight: The six sacrifices are "killed" by Beatrice just after they acknowledge that she's a witch. Rosa, the "survivor" must act according to the rules, so again she lie about the chapel being already locked with the help of the servants.

Second twilight: Jessica is tested and fails. She must then act according to the rules, she fakes her death. No need to explain how Kanon disappears. The door was locked with Genji's key.

seventh and eight twilight: Gohda is being victim of an incredibly elaborated magic trick performed by Beatrice and GENSAWAJO. Shannon exits the room with an excuse. She then returns dressed as Kanon, but then she removes her "make up" causing Gohda to say later "at first I was sure it was Kanon, but then it was someone else". Gohda also sees the hideous scar, causing him to say "what the hell was that?!".
Nanjo and Kumasawa are effectively "killed" inside the game, but it was in reality all staged. Their bodies appear later in the courtyard. They probably moved by their own.

fourth, fifth, sixth twilight: Gohda now is finally being told the truth and so is George after failing his test. They all get "killed" by Beatrice inside Natsuhi's room, with Gohda closing the door with the manual lock just a sec before collapsing, or at least this is what the "script" tells.


EP3 solution:

First twilight: the adults are informed as usual, and after a set time they go looking for the fake murder circle they already knew would happen, always as part of the game. So they know that the people are just faking their death, but they know the rules and play according with them.
What they do not know is the shkanon tricks. So Shannon simply dresses as Kanon moves to the chapel closes the door from inside and fakes her death again.

Now something very unusual happens: Eva solves the epitaph.
This should be game over for Beatrice, but the two strike a deal. Beatrice gives Eva the bank account card and she promises her she will give her the account number if she becomes the new "Beatrice" and continues the murder game. Eva accepts.

second twilight: Eva explains that she's now the new Beatrice and "kills" both Maria and Rosa.

fourth, fifth, sixth twilight: Kyrie probably suspected something and went to the Mansion to check what happened or to question Hideyoshi that covered Eva. Eva manages to "kill" all three of them always according to the rules of the game.

seventh eight twilight: Eva "kills" Natsuhi and Krauss luring them to the arbor with an excuse and informing them that she's the new culprit and they are "dead"!

Eva's job is complete, she can finally get her bank account number.

Jessica actually gets wounded by the discharge of the blanks. Eva didn't know that would happen. Kids remember! Even blanks can be dangerous!

Now here something odd happens. Beatrice "kills" Nanjo. Probably because the witch revived after the ritual being completed by Eva.

Battler finally understands that Eva is the culprit. Eva makes trollface and shoots Battler. But don't worry it was just a blank.


EP4 solution:

Well I don't really need to explain every single twilight here. it was all a huge lie. The bodies were probably all dummies, at least the ones with the heads half smashed were.
Of course George and Jessica were tested and failed. Jessica became the witch's piece and lied to Battler.
Everything was later set up to match with the lies being told to him.
In the end all the people were actually "killed" according to the rules of the game.


EP5 solution:

-Beatrice doesn't appear at all in this game. Yasu made another of her world changes and became Erika. The culprit became "the man from 19 years before" which is still Yasu/Lion or whatever you want to call him.
Technically "Erika" is not the culprit, even though she shares the body with him.

-Erika could easily solve the epitaph because she knew already how to do it.

-At the family conference someone (probably Genji) explains a lot of stuff. The situation here is a lot different than usual. This time they need to deal with "the man from 19 years before" that wants to exact her vengeance against Natsuhi. The culprit won't simply yield his righteous title just becase they solve the epitaph. Unless they play his game, as the one who solved the epitaph first he'll keep everything. So they have no choice and they all start playing that ridiculous detective game. Even so they all well know that the cousins didn't actually die (Rosa was the one who explained them everything).
Of course Hideyoshi just faked everything.

-The knock on the door either never exist or it was done by Erika on the front door.

-At any rate Shannon and Kanon didn't exist in the dining room.



What happened in the real world:

-Because of the news of Battler's return Yasu decided to create that crazy fake mass murder plan. She would have otherwise just married George. George would have become the new heir and Eva would have actually been happy about that.

-But wait, people would actually all die for real if something goes wrong because a volcano is about to burst!

-Yasu knows this but she doesn't say shit. After all there's a chance that nothing will happen. She just entrusts everything to fate. However as a failsafe she creates the bank accounts and writes the messages in the bottles.

-One of the many "games" that Yasu had in mind was performed.

-Something went wrong. Although it isn't necessary that someone actually was killed. I give up in explaining what exactly happened and how Eva ended up being the sole survivor.

-A phreatic eruption happens creating a 1 km wide crater which destroys half the island including Mansion, guesthouse, chapel, and harbor. I CALL IT!

-I give up in guessing if there are actually other survivors beside Eva and how many.



Random stuff:

- Battler is Kyrie's son.

-Yasu/Lion is 100% female.

-Yasu/Lion wound has nothing to do with her genitalia. She's just overreacting as usual. It's probably a huge scar in her chest.

-Bern was a cat in the original story she was created in. That means that there's absolutely no connection between Higurashi and Umineko.

-Shannon's boobs are fake.

-Amakusa won't kill Ange, and therefore Ange won't die.

-Okonogi's ass is going to be kicked very hard.

-The gold truth is merely a "truth" that you can claim after a well constructed lie. For example you perform a magic trick and claim it was magic. Or you get several people to all tell the same lie.

-The incidents involving Beatrice2's death and the fall of the Maid with Lion were both caused by Kinzo's wife. In the former case she just happened to see Rosa with that woman while she was looking for her, so she took that chance to kill her. In the latter case she understood the baby's origin and arranged its demise.
The motive is that she was jealous and she didn't want the child of another woman to usurp the title that was meant to one of her offsprings.


Shkanon explanation

I can't decide between two different theories. So if one of the two is correct I'll just get half point for it.


-Theory one: Kanon only exists inside yasu's mind as another of her imaginary friends, but Yasu does pose as Kanon as part of her fake murder master plan. This basically means that everyone lied about kanon being there for 3 years. This also means that the adults were informed about Beatrice's crazy plan in advance.
This theory doesn't deny the romance between Jessica and Kanon. Because Kanon actually "appeared" (As Yasu dressed as him) at least during the cultural festival.

-Theory two: Yasu is actually mad. She can wake up one day and think she is a completely different person. One day she woke up thinking she was Kanon. GENSAWAJO had to work hard to cover her ass.
Yasu would learn about this only after solving the epitaph.

[Judoh]

Will laid most of everything out for me. There are some twilights in episodes 3 and 4 that I could change. But otherwise most of what I thought about the murders was the same.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Mirrored

So, what's the truth you guys have found?

'Yasu is the culprit'.

Seriously though, I'm still pulling for George and Jessica as primary culprits, ruining Yasu's game, although they probably aren't working together.

Also, Ep8 will primarily be about Battler, and Asumu and Hachijou are the same person. Calling it.

[Judoh]

Asumu won't ever get her own sprite. calling it.

Will and Lion aren't done yet. calling it.

[Jan-Poo]

Well Will and Lion appear on the cover, that's quite a safe bet, I'll call that too.

[delita-umw-]

Pulling for evil fatman George to be the trigger, if not the real culprit, for everything going wrong on Rokkenjima.

[Judoh]

Of course I call that too. But I do beleive he intended to be such a trigger.

[Jan-Poo]

Ah then since everyone believe George is the culprit I'll call the "George is not the culprit". Of course by that I mean that he doesn't actually kill anyone, but it will still be revealed that he's an ass.

[delita-umw-]

I'll be ambiguous and also say...SMALL BOMBS CALLING IT!

[Sherringford]

This solution...I'll admit I'm being a bit biased here. But here it goes.

Spoiler for Golden Age:

Yasu's Heart

This is the most important part of the story. What is her motive for killing everyone? I'll answer it. She has none. She is the culprit in the stories, but not in the real world.

She wrote the stories as a way of reaching out to Battler, as he had forgotten about her.

Mystery novels are the best!

No one mentions how Jessica's hair is blond, yet they treat Beatrice as weird for having blond hair. Therefore, we know that the people in the visual novel aren't the actual people they are meant to resemble.

Aurora something, Ryuukishi's author avatar, the writer, is Yasu. Episodes 1-4 were her main series of works where she is trying to remind Battler of what happened.

She has no contact with Battler, so she is trying to contact him the only way she can, through the only bond they have.

Mystery novels.

Battler is an avid mystery reader, and Yasu knows that if she wrote famous mystery novels, it would get through to him. He always placed importance on the heart of the mystery, and so she tried to show him who she was through that mystery.

She was confident the message would get through to him.

Battler tells Kid!Ange at the end of episode 7 that there were no bad people in his family, and that was true. It was just a story that the kids in her class had read.

The world of 1998 never happened. It's all fiction. It's Yasu's way of showing Battler what would have happened if he had come back to the family.

What do I mean by that?

Battler never came back

Battler never came back. Not until he read the stories at least. Then there are two alternatives:

1)Beatrice's games are a long suicide letter, and Battler only found out who she was after she exploded the island for real(but killing no one but herself).

2)Battler did come back in the end, after reading the first four games.

What really happened then?

Nothing. No one died, and Lion became the head. However, Lion was still sad that Battler didn't come back, and wrote his series of novels to get him to understand his message.

Does Yasu need to be Lion for this theory to work?

Yes. Because Ange being bullied about her family being murderers is something that can only be done if the novels used their family's real name.

Normally, this would be something they would all protest against. So it can only be done by someone with enough money to buy their approval and influence for them to refuse to say no. The only person that holds that kind of control over the family is the head.

Kinzo wouldn't portray himself like a rapist, so he was way dead once this happened. The one who did it was Lion.

Assuming people were paid off so that they would consent to being represented in a book where they are murderers, they would have money and no reason to murder anyone.

Love Trials

Lion's lack of clear sex refers to him being unsure whether his true love is George or Jessica. Deciding destiny take its course, he provides Battler with his novels. If Battler can solve them, he will marry Battler. If not, then George or Jessica, whoever gets closer to understanding his heart.

Battler would normally be the winner by default, but he lost in episode 6 because he was absent. This refers to all the years Battler was gone from the island.

George's decisiveness is what allowed him to be the winner, as his romance with Jessica was unsure, something Lion definitely wanted to avoid, as he craved to be accepted and understood after his hard life.

Summary

Lion wrote the games assuming that Battler and him would once again communicate in the language they once spoke when young:

Mysteries.

Episode 5 implies he was too late, but I'll be optimistic and assume that this isn't necessarily true.

Meta World Characters:

Lambda:

She is a literary agent. Her making Beatrice a witch for two days refers to her getting Yasu a literary contract to publish her novels. Even if Yasu used the Ushiromiya fortune to make her own publisher, Battler would be unlikely to read it unless it came from a more or less famous mystery publisher.

Bern:

The villain of the series. She is Beatrice's editor, who wants a sad ending, because they sell better. Beatrice wants to fight against a depressing ending, as a depressing ending to her novel would be like sentencing herself not to love Battler.

Once Beatrice gives up writing novels around episode 4, she hires a new writer to continue the series as her fans want to see the conclusion, and she wants more money.

Lambda, her previous agent, is the one who writes episode 5. Battler solves it, but he's too late, as Beatrice already gave up on writing novels and disappeared off to somewhere.

He thinks that if he shows his understanding for her, she will come back. They switch positions, and he writes the sixth episode in hopes that she comes back to him. She does.

Battler and Beatrice's story ended during episode 6.

But her fans still wanted a conclusion to her series of novels. Bern then called the president of the Detection Club, Simon Brett to finish off the mystery side of the story for her.

Featherine is the owner of the mystery publisher, ranking even above Bern, the evil editor.

Simon Brett, I should note, has a style similar(despite very different thematic) to S.S Van Dine.

Simon Brett Became Willard H.Wright during the main story, much like Dlanor was made by Lambda in order to please the mystery crowd.

He solved everything and wrote a very compassionate ending to Beatrice, exposing only the bare minimum of her personal life and tried to end her story right there.

But Bern wouldn't have any of that. She wanted everything, no matter how embarrassing, to be revealed to the public.

He came back, and argued that her version of the story was not the mystery she wanted him to write. He was fired, and his arguments were rendered useless.

In episode 7, that's why his attacks were useless. Furniture cannot defeat a witch.

A writer can never defeat an editor.

I speak from experience.

She decided to keep playing with her gameboard, which is a metaphor for "milking the series as a cash cow and turn it into a franchise zombie."

Episode 8 will involve them stopping Bern from corrupting their story, and ending their contract.

[Vylen]

Kumasawa is clearly the culprit... you can't trust that crazy mackerel woman. And Yasu would totally take the blame for her murdering everyone. She's just a really good actress pretending to be shocked and scared!

[Arachanox]

Still pushing for George culprit, because it is so elegant in its inelegance.

(also we need justification for his numerous hypothetical death threats to his family and the world, should they get in his way of Shannon)

[MeoTwister5]

I've been leaning towards George ever since Ep5 started, though I've had my suspicions since Ep3. As of Ep7, I'm leaning towards at least two masterminds,and for me that would be Yasu+George.

I'm still however hanging on to the belief that the masterminds aren't necessarily the actual murderers, rather as masterminds control the situation in such a way that other people end up killing.

So with three days left, calling it now.