Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This, on the other hand, is dead wrong. By his own design, Durandal was almost as little known in the world as the leader of Scandinavia until after his plan fell apart (after the failed invasion of Orb). Durandal was only known for two major announcements: the fact that PLANT was giving out aid after the "Break the World" incident, and his denunciation of LOGOS. While both moves have their populist elements, neither are the kind of event that would do much for his personal popularity. Bear in mind that Durandl's biggest struggle with popularity had always been in PLANT, and there's no evidence that he was ever held in high regards there. If you can point to actual examples of anyone outside of his little group who had much positive to say about him, then you'd have a point. Without those examples, this is a very weak claim.

Considering at the end of episode 33, the victims all over Central Eurasia were chanting Dullendal's name, i think he had popularity over there as their "Messiah". At the Beginning of 34 he also had the Agreement of the Supreme Council, and their praise, calling him brave and courageous.

Dullendal definitely had charisma though. He managed to convince Rey, Athrun, Shinn, and almost all the world into revolting against LOGOS and the AF as seen in the protests and the mob attacks in 35. I don't know about PLANT but there was definitely no struggle in ZAFT apart from maybe Yzak. I think it's safe to say he was, or at least his cause was popular up until he hit the destiny plan. From there it almost exclusively shows almost Kira, Lacus, and Dullendal. There really isn't much of the show showing the public, and when it is, (before the DS) It is almost always shown in support of Dullendal or his cause.

Anyway both sides need to cool it down, only maybe 1/8 of all those giant wall posts have anything to do with the topic.

[wingdarkness]

Wow, what bada$$ery for you 4tran, I'm shocked ...

Prepare for too many cpu-robot references ...

Originally Posted by 4tran

Hah! I've always figured that math wasn't your strong point, so thanks for confirming that ! And you think that reputation points prove that your posts are actually good? Really? Heck, that's right up there with thinking that internet polls are worth a damn .

This proves your worth right here...Where do you think we are?? Are you cosplaying today?? You think this is the Princeton law Review board we're debating in front of? The jury pool for this conversation exist somewhere between some big-boned otaku dressed in a Zaku outfit named Lou, and some homo-erotic Lacus lover who spray-paints his eyebrows pink ...I, for some reason unexplainable^^, logon to entertain these people (along with the casuals) with decent to incredible anecdotals while still putting together credible arguments that make fairly good sense...I don't know about elsewhere, but you damn right internet polls here are worth a damn sometimes to me...And the members who give me rep-points for scorching your a$$ are the people who consume this stuff, not some debate team professor...

I sure do care about many members' opinions, because this is a very niche community, a community that i have come to love over the years...And as much as I shake my head at you and your calculator for a heart, I thank you too...You're probably personally responsible for a full dot...Ya think I'm bull$hitting? You got mod powers, go back and track my points if you've got the stomach for it...I'll ask you to stay away from the PM's though, not even I am cruel enuff to post all what people have said about you there over the years...

So you should feel kinda good, you do evoke something in people, which makes you either super relevant or easy to hate...LOL, I know i'm easy...

This doesn't even begin to address Neku's point. That point was that Durandal used REQUIEM as a threat and your counterclaim that Durandal is written poorly is utterly irrelevant to that. While using someone's point as a jump-off for your own arguments is okay, ignoring the original point altogether is that oh-so-familiar red herring fallacy, and it's a sign of poor debating.

You human glitch-filled Vista program, I don't give a flip whether you think it was a "threat" or a "resort"...If you were pro-Dullindal it can certainly be construed as a "resort" (If you deem his plan of peace over whomever has to be killed to make that reality), if you're pro-Kiracus it can certainly be seen as a "threat", so rather than get hung on semantics let me refine my bottomline here, which is misinterpreted by Neku's interest in the wordplay over the real point i was trying to convey...That's why i tend to move past points like this because i expect you to be smarter than this (To be staunch on the wordplay here) but you're aren't I guess...

Why would it be necessary to concede to non-content posts? Simply claiming that a statement is about symbolism and expressionism doesn't mean that it's free from the requirements of logical reasoning.

Aaaaah, Community college laffs at you...Puhleeeze..You have no concept of gray...Everything with you and your circuit board sensibility is black and white...That's why you don't get Dean the Young's point about Dully being shadowy, but not ruthless yet...

Your lack of understanding creativity in these areas even leaks into how you mod this forum...Look at all the little precise headings and titles of every topic...The boring naming for everything that keeps every thread concise and neat...This forum used to be jumping with creative threads on a bevy of Gundam-related subjects...Mr. Paper must be rolling around in his grave at what this forum has become..This used to be the coolest sub-forum on this site, if not all of Gundam...Now it's just a reflection of your personality...Bland...

Again, these are unsubstantiated claims, and aren't worth addressing directly.

Is that located on the receipt that prints from your mouth?

And ditto; with the highlighted portion being little more than a case of goalpost moving. What's especially amusing about this is that wingdarkness still hasn't provided an episode number and timestamp, even if he was referring to the people who supported Durandal in general as opposed to the Destiny Plan in general.

You think I still have this $hit on my computer?? LMAO....I'm sure with this being your 1st or 2nd rated Gundam series of alltime (Not making this ludicrous $hit up casual readers he really feels this way), I'm sure you have these imaginary Lacus chessgame eps on your mobile phone, I don't...So no timestamps, just credible explanations and perspectives...

If you agree that Durandal was no longer popular in the rest of the world, then why do you keep claiming that he was popular? And that red herring I highlighted doesn't do you any favors.

WTF? The only thing RED is the Low-battery warning beeping on your chest...I can hardly understand this or why you seem to be so proud of what you think you've gotten me on...Honestly is English your primary language?? I know I influx so many cool and flavorful colloquialisms in my posts so i do apologize if you can't interpret them all, but (If I can figure out what you are saying) the only thing I was talking about was him snapping at the point inwhich he turned his laser on Orb, then his own men...That event alone was enuff to ruin his credibility and ultimately his popularity...While team Lacus would be his foil all series to varying degrees, I meant him REALLY SNAPPING here once Shinn and Rey are defeated and realizing an idiot-savannt (Lacus Clyne), and her bum-kissers (Kira and Athrun) had finally defeated him...

This, on the other hand, is dead wrong. By his own design, Durandal was almost as little known in the world as the leader of Scandinavia...

Scandinavia is NOT SHOWN, none of their leaders are SHOWN, no human-face, no perspective to judge or articulate it's clear relevance in a literary story sense...There is a reason for that genius...Just like you derive all of this off-screen nothingness to prove to people Lacus Clyne is this chessplaying genius of legend dashing Dullindal at every stop, you use the same methodology here...Dully was almost as little known?? Then why are his exploits documented and evolving, and progressing the whole time genius?!? He has been presented as such so that you can follow his exploits and his rise to fame as the principal player here...Jesus, you don't even know how to watch TV man...I can only imagine how much intellectual fanfiction is going thru your mind from offscreen $hit instead of following basic literary techniques such as the one used in GSD that documents Dullindal's rise...

"FORUM...Who the hell thinks that Gilbert Dullindal was as little known with as little influence as the leaders of Scandinavia as it relates to Gundam Seed Destiny?"


Context has never been your best subject...

wingdarkness, you've got squat so far. If you think otherwise, I welcome your attempts to show us what you've got.

Squat huh? Did you say that with a "Bring it On" curled-lip? You're funny...You're almost pulling a wingdarkness here, too bad you don't have the cred to pull it off...You're Superman Brandon Routh being bada$$ man...Give it up...Like I'll ever bat an eye to your claims of no content...As always I'll let the readers judge if I've provided nothing (since this NEEDS to be my final say on this subject)...You just worry about recharging that Double-AA, K?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Neku

Nuh uh. My point was that he waged war as soon as he realized opposition exists - it wasn't a desperate action - it was a threat.

Arguably, there was more than a small measure of desperation involved in Durandal's latter actions - his original plan had gone down the drain, so he felt that he had to do something. Still, he was hardly hesitant to use force beforehand, so it's a bit of a wash.

Originally Posted by dramatis

To be honest, you don't have well-argued points either. Your 'evidence' consists of self-interpretations and those interpretations cater to your own biases of the characters. Of course, the same applies to the opposing side, but for you to pretend you stand on some high ground over wingdarkness?

From where else is evidence supposed to originate other than through interpretation? Sure, some shows will simply explain everything to the audience, but that's hardly what we're talking about here. Moreover, I think that you have no clue as to what "evidence" entails. Evidence works much the same way as it does in real life - they are drawn from observations and they are analyzed in various ways to derive meaning. What that usually means for analyzing shows is to take examples from said show to use as pieces of supporting information for whatever arguments that one has. While I don't necessarily claim to be a great debater, I can objectively say that I use more evidence and rely more on the rules and structures of logical reasoning than wingdarkness does. And as always, if anyone disagrees with any arguments I make, I welcome their rebuttals, and I'll provide evidence for my points as needed.

Originally Posted by dramatis

Laughable. In the Lacus assassination thread, you use circumstantial evidence to 'prove' Durandal as the 'obvious' mastermind, but here you oppose the circumstantial evidence provided proving Durandal as a popular political figure. Here, you use that assassination attempt, which has no decisive evidence implicating Durandal, as evidence for Durandal's ruthlessness.

Nonsense. Read my points again, and if there are any that you want to challenge, then go ahead and do so. However, I expect you to bring up specific points and be willing to use evidence to back them up.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Considering at the end of episode 33, the victims all over Central Eurasia were chanting Dullendal's name, i think he had popularity over there as their "Messiah". At the Beginning of 34 he also had the Agreement of the Supreme Council, and their praise, calling him brave and courageous.

Hmm... so they did. Very well, I'll concede the point about Durandal enjoying some popularity within the broader population. However, this kind of popularity doesn't really stick for long, especially not on a personal level. Moreover, it plays to the power of propaganda theme in Destiny.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Dullendal definitely had charisma though. He managed to convince Rey, Athrun, Shinn, and almost all the world into revolting against LOGOS and the AF as seen in the protests and the mob attacks in 35. I don't know about PLANT but there was definitely no struggle in ZAFT apart from maybe Yzak. I think it's safe to say he was, or at least his cause was popular up until he hit the destiny plan. From there it almost exclusively shows almost Kira, Lacus, and Dullendal. There really isn't much of the show showing the public, and when it is, (before the DS) It is almost always shown in support of Dullendal or his cause.

There is more than one kind of charisma, and it's something that Durandal was aware of. Durandal's version was the kind that worked very well on the personal level - he knew when to say a kind word, and when to give a proper reward, and it allowed him to gain trust among those that knew him. However, it didn't seem to give him the kind of group popularity that allows certain leaders to move nations.

LOGOS is a good example of this. That people rebelled against them isn't really proof of Durandal's popularity; instead, the people were looking for someone to blame and LOGOS served as a convenient scapegoat. In this kind of situation, it's relatively easy to pin blame on a perceived enemy, and focus anger on that enemy. That LOGOS really was guilty of a great many things only served to legitimize that.

However, look at a real world example: I have it on fairly decent authority that George W. Bush was fairly well-liked on a personal level, and it's fairly well known that he was very popular as well when the United States was under attack, and in the aftermath of September 11. But this popularity was very ephemeral, and we all know how unpopular he came to be.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I can only imagine how much intellectual fanfiction is going thru your mind from offscreen $hit instead of following basic literary techniques such as the one used in GSD that documents Dullindal's rise...

"FORUM...Who the hell thinks that Gilbert Dullindal was as little known with as little influence as the leaders of Scandinavia as it relates to Gundam Seed Destiny?"

For crying out loud! You went on for a whole page, and this was the only thing that was worth addressing? As it stands, I'm withdrawing that argument, but I'm doing so because Foreshadow actually put in the effort to actually bring up a useful example. Your post, on the other hand, is just pure spam.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Arguably, there was more than a small measure of desperation involved in Durandal's latter actions - his original plan had gone down the drain, so he felt that he had to do something. Still, he was hardly hesitant to use force beforehand, so it's a bit of a wash.

What was his original plan?
What I mainly remember was - Durandal announced Destiny Plan; people, including ZAFT were rendered confused. What happened next was voices against it were heard, and Durandal casually ordered for the fire at Atlantic Federation without notice.

Also, I don't think Durandal was ever hesitant to use force (considering the double assassination attempts against Lacus), it's just that he uses his brains first.

[Aquaman OS]

Well his original plan was no doubt to be rid of Lacus and her supporters long before he actually started bringing up the Destiny Plan or even Logos. When the first asassination failed he didn't think much of it but when he started the later phases with the Logos hunt he needed to take out at least Freedom (Lacus's main asset) immediately hence the sudden change of plans to take out AA then (which Athrun said seemed awfully strange to paint Logos as the enemy and then target AA instead, but Talia stuck to orders, Rey was already in league with Gil and Shinn wanted Freedom destroyed anyway so nobody agreed with him) I think the first hint of Durandal losing his cool over the plan is when Athrun runs off. Durandal at the point is oddly harsh and overly insistant that Athrun be killed instead of ordering a capture which Destiny and Legend could have easily pulled off. You'd think he'd want him alive for questioning but Durandal suddenly saw that if Athrun could escape in any fashion he could replace Kira as Lacus's Ace pilot and ruin everything so he wanted Athrun's ass dead to keep that from happening.

Of course after both Kira and Athrun turned up alive and Lacus revealed her true military might Durandal started to freak and captured Requiem. As clearly despite attempting several time to prevent their interferance it couldn't be done.

No doubt Durandal's initial would have had Kira and Lacus dead early on with no one the wiser and Durandal and Zaft looking like heroes to all the world throughout the war since without Lacus to point out his deception and fight against him nobody would have any reason to suspect anything he did.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Well his original plan was no doubt to be rid of Lacus and her supporters long before he actually started bringing up the Destiny Plan or even Logos. When the first asassination failed he didn't think much of it but when he started the later phases with the Logos hunt he needed to take out at least Freedom (Lacus's main asset) immediately hence the sudden change of plans to take out AA then (which Athrun said seemed awfully strange to paint Logos as the enemy and then target AA instead, but Talia stuck to orders, Rey was already in league with Gil and Shinn wanted Freedom destroyed anyway so nobody agreed with him) I think the first hint of Durandal losing his cool over the plan is when Athrun runs off. Durandal at the point is oddly harsh and overly insistant that Athrun be killed instead of ordering a capture which Destiny and Legend could have easily pulled off. You'd think he'd want him alive for questioning but Durandal suddenly saw that if Athrun could escape in any fashion he could replace Kira as Lacus's Ace pilot and ruin everything so he wanted Athrun's ass dead to keep that from happening.

Of course after both Kira and Athrun turned up alive and Lacus revealed her true military might Durandal started to freak and captured Requiem. As clearly despite attempting several time to prevent their interferance it couldn't be done.

No doubt Durandal's initial would have had Kira and Lacus dead early on with no one the wiser and Durandal and Zaft looking like heroes to all the world throughout the war since without Lacus to point out his deception and fight against him nobody would have any reason to suspect anything he did.

Aquaman OS... Durandal was hurt by Athrun's betrayal (as Durandal saw it). Durandal was about to make Athrun one of his top two soldiers - him and Shinn were going to be his two elite men. Through out the first half of GSD, one of the key plot developments was the growing relationship between Durandal and Athrun - Durandal clearly thought highly of Athrun and wanted him to be part of his inner circle.


Interesting that Durandal would want Athrun to be part of his inner circle given Athrun's known connections to Lacus; awfully risky and dumb move if - and I stress IF, my "he's-guilty-until-proven-innocent" friends - Durandal planned to assassinate Lacus. So risky and dumb, in fact, that it's entirely out of character for pre-snapping Durandal. What does that possibly portend concerning his guilt or innocence pertaining to the assassination attempts on Lacus, I wonder? Hhhmmm....

Actually, and as an aside, one theory I have for why Durandal tried hard to bring Athrun into his inner circle was to ensure that Meer's takeover of the Lacus Clyne role would go smoothly; perhaps Durandal even hoped that Athrun would manage to persuade the real Lacus Clyne to tolerate the facade. However, back to the main discussion...


Durandal was simply enraged by Athrun's betrayal - it sincerely hurt Durandal to have somebody that he had placed such a high degree of confidence and trust in to turn against him. And, perhaps here we see the beginning of Durandal's psychological descent, as Athrun's betrayal (as Durandal saw it) began to eat away at him. In his moment of slighted anger, Durandal put aside more logical concerns like interrogation and wanted revenge on Athrun.


The way that some on this thread have utterly dehumanized Durandal is terrible to read. Your approach to him is nothing short of Snidely Whiplash-esque. It's an approach that completely fails to appreciate how complex and unique a character that Durandal is. No wonder wingdarkness responds to it the way that he does...

[Aquaman OS]

What the heck are you talking about? Durandal set Athrun up. During the whole conversation with Rey especially in the Special Edition they basically go "Well I was hoping Athrun would just listen to me, but he's clearly still attached to Kira and Lacus and won't forsake them so lets use these pictures of him meeting with Kira (even though I have a record of their conversation and know he was telling them to stop messing with me and was on my side there) to set him up for betraying us since we don't need him anymore since Shinn is good enough."

Durandal didn't have a close relationship with Athrun at all. Athrun convieniently fell into his lap (maybe, or maybe he arranged things to happen) and he played on his feelings to get him to join.

He even basically asked Athrun to join to keep Durandal in line and to confront him if he ever did anything that Athrun believed was out of line, he didn't have Athrun rejoin as a rank and file soldier to carry out orders (though Durandal was hoping Athrun would) When Athrun does exactly what he asked him todo Durandal responds blowing him off and then trying to get rid of him. To me that pretty much proves that Durandal wasn't being truthful to Athrun at all when he asked him to rejoin and was just telling Athrun what he wanted to hear to agree to rejoin.

That's basically Durandal's MO. Tell people what they want to hear. Why do you think he kept praising Shinn like he did despite Shinn clearly going out of line several times by telling off the head of another nation and the whole Stella debacle? Because Shinn was useful to him. I don't think he was honestly truely sympathetic about Shinn past and family at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Running away out of the blue without any warning isn't standing up and correcting someone.

It was clear that Durandal gave Athrun the Faith autonomy so that Athrun wouldn't feel compelled to toe any line. Even at the most sinister of motivations of tricking Athrun into joining, it gave Athrun every right and reason to voice his views to Durandal openly. The fact that they had to ret-con insinuations of sinister manipulation into the story doesn't change that that was why Athrun joined it.

But Athrun didn't do that. He went behind Durandal's back when meeting with Kira and Lacus in secret, he never really talked to Durandal, and didn't do anything about correcting Durandal. He mostly kept it bottled up and let Durandal go ahead, and then fled after Durandal gave him an even greater opportunity. He never stood up to speak out and correct Durandal outright, and providing free and open contradiction was the entire point of him joining.

Stealing a mobile suit and fleeing in secret in the middle of the night was not what meant or intended by either side of that agreement.

[Aquaman OS]

He voiced his doubt in the hanger when Legend was assigned to him. In response Durandal set him up with the pictures and sent in the guards. Running away might have been reckless but by then they've realized not to take Durandal lightly. Athrun didn't just run off for no reason.

He also went behind nobodys back. He told Talia he was going to make contact with AA and he told her that he did just that when he returned. It wasn't supposed to be secret at all.

[wingdarkness]

I think the point here (and the point I originally made however many years ago when the ep first aired) was that IMO, this was the episode that broke the camel’s back in-terms of Dullindal’s character….It was the first time he was shown as a villain in a heavy-handed way…A way he had never been shown up to that point in the series…A smirk here, a wry smile there (in episodes prior to this) doesn’t mean $hit really in comparison, but in this episode he was over personified as if “Ooh $hit the series is almost over we need to defcon Duly now!” and for a logical progression it just didn’t feel right at all…Felt super-$hitty really...Then later we have him telling Shinn, Rey, and Talia that Athrun and Meyrin (Meyrin!!!) were working for Blue Cosmos…Jesus they totally betrayed his character right there…I don’t care how dumb you think Shinn was, no one should have believed that ridiculous lie, and Dullindal who has been supreme in his craftiness and verbal elegance all series would have never come up with a lie so trite and sweeping...He was a victim of (like dramatis said) the schizophrenia associated with the plot, these characters, and these themes…That’s why GSD is one of those rare asterisk deserving shows in which arguments can be made outside the anime-world to discuss many in-anime problems (Not to blame every problem, but as a matter of credible discussion)…I believe Dully was definitely a victim of this, culminating in ep 39…

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

What the heck are you talking about?

You yourself very clearly put forward what I am talking about.

Durandal didn't have a close relationship with Athrun at all.

Durandal clearly wanted a close relationship with Athrun as per...

He even basically asked Athrun to join to keep Durandal in line and to confront him if he ever did anything that Athrun believed was out of line, he didn't have Athrun rejoin as a rank and file soldier to carry out orders (though Durandal was hoping Athrun would).

Precisely. Durandal gave a very special role and status to Athrun. He had heart to heart conversations with Athrun.

Look, some of you guys believe that every signal thing that Durandal did was part of some malicious machiavellian plot, and that there was no honest sentiments beyond that. I simply do not agree with that Snidely Whiplash take on Durandal - I particularly think that his comments to Shinn were largely/entirely sincere. I also think that Durandal was mostly sincere to Athrun. Like Wingdarkness said, for the bulk of the anime, Durandal was presented in a predominantly sympathetic light.

In the latter stages of GSD, we had simply reached a point of no return, and Athrun had to choose to either side with Durandal, or go back to the Kira/Lacus side.

That's basically Durandal's MO. Tell people what they want to hear. Why do you think he kept praising Shinn like he did despite Shinn clearly going out of line several times by telling off the head of another nation and the whole Stella debacle?

I doubt that Durandal was all that fond of Cagali to begin with - Shinn telling her off may have even been amusing to him (there, that even fits in with your moustache-twirling villain conception of Durandal).

I think that Durandal was pissed over the Stella debacle, but your ace pilot is still your ace pilot... and Shinn's desire for peace through power (in essence) reflects Durandal's own.

Both Durandal and Shinn dislike uncertain diplomacy and wild cards like a neutral Orb. Both prefer a clear-cut situation of order and peace with out wild cards. The two share some of the same viewpoints - Durandal's is simply at a far higher level than Shinn's due to the considerable difference in intellect between the two men.

Because Shinn was useful to him. I don't think he was honestly truely sympathetic about Shinn past and family at all.

And that's where we disagree the most. I think that you have totally dehumanized Durandal and are trying to make him out to be a completely heartless monster when that is not what he is at all.

[Aquaman OS]

Not exactly. I don't believe he was a monster persay. I just believe he had zero faith in humanity and no respect for the individual and their own wishes and dreams.
Durandal saw all of humanity as numbers and statistics. So long as he could keep say 80 percent of humanity alive without war that's what was going to do and was justified in all of that because of the means to ends and all that.

But I believe there were very few people he actually respected on a personal level and wished for a world where basically everybody did as they were told and didn't put much thought into why or what they were doing.

And yes I think he was just trying to get Athrun on his side. If he really meant the stuff he said he wouldn't have ignored Athrun when he confronted him in the hanger and he wouldn't have said how he respected Lacus Clyne as a person and then think to himself about what a troublesome person she is and how she corrupts people like Kira and Athrun by trying to make them independent instead of having them just follow their superiors instructions. He might not have had any issues with Athrun personally but he just saw him as a very good soldier and wanted him to use his power as Durandal instructed. And of course he was disapointed when he found Athrun still possessed too much of the independent Clyne Faction mindset to be of much use.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Neku

What was his original plan?

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Well his original plan was no doubt to be rid of Lacus and her supporters long before he actually started bringing up the Destiny Plan or even Logos.

I don't that this is the case. The key to understanding how Durandal works is to first look at the state of PLANT in the interwar period:

- Zala supporters: this faction had squandered all of its political support at the end of the Cosmic Era 71 war, and they were mostly interested in revenge against the EA. Open supporters had probably been drummed out of ZAFT, and build their power outside of PLANT; but there are probably secret supporters as well.
- Clyne supporters: this faction had seized control of the PLANT government. It has assets in many key places in ZAFT and the government, but their leader, Lacus, wasn't there to guide them. During the interwar period. This group is probably the most powerful by far since it's held in fairly high esteem by the main PLANT populace. The more militant elements are mostly deactivated.
- Durandal supporters: this is a dedicated group, but it's probably very small as well since Durandal hasn't had much time to build a power base. Moreover, pretty much all members who know anything of his plans have to be fanatics. Note that even people like Talia aren't in this group.
- The main PLANT population: they are most likely to go with whichever group is currently most in vogue, and exhibit few ideas of their own.

From this, it looks like Durandal wouldn't have much of an opportunity as his powerbase is probably smaller than the Zala supporters. What he needed in order to gain power was the support of the strongest power bloc: the Clyne supporters. And it would make a lot of sense for them to support him since he says much the same kind of thing that Sigel Clyne used to say. On top of that, this would put him ideologically opposed to the Zala supporters.

So what Durandal really needed was to keep the Clyne supporters happy with his speeches and policies - he wasn't interested in destroying them per se, his interest was in subverting them to his own purposes. Athrun's value to Durandal lies entirely in his name: it's something to throw to the Zala supporters so that their opposition to him would lessen. The main obstacle to all of this is Lacus as she was uniquely position to foil whatever he wanted to do. For that matter, he always saw people in one of two ways: either as political figures, or as useful pawns. The only exception to this was Kira, and that was only because Kira played to Durandal's obsession/occupation with genetics.

As to his original plan, it would have gone about the same as Destiny up until the invasion of Orb. His primary goals were to win the war, paint LOGOS as the villains, and to ready humanity to accept the principles of the Destiny Plan. Trying to implement the Plan at once would have been a failure, so he would ease it into place, maybe activating a few of the less intrusive policies, and continue doing so until the whole thing was in place. On top of that, he would use Meer to assauge everyone that this was all either harmless or beneficial.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

When the first asassination failed he didn't think much of it but when he started the later phases with the Logos hunt he needed to take out at least Freedom (Lacus's main asset) immediately hence the sudden change of plans to take out AA then (which Athrun said seemed awfully strange to paint Logos as the enemy and then target AA instead, but Talia stuck to orders, Rey was already in league with Gil and Shinn wanted Freedom destroyed anyway so nobody agreed with him)

I think that even though the assassination attempt was a stab in the dark, its failure did throw Durandal for a loop. However, there wasn't much that he could do about it since he didn't know of Lacus' whereabouts until episode 26, and there wasn't any way for him to delay Meer's debut. It was obvious at that point that Archangel was a natural ally of Lacus, so he took the first opportunity that came to hand to destroy it - in Operation Angel Down, when he could finally pin down its location.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I think the first hint of Durandal losing his cool over the plan is when Athrun runs off. Durandal at the point is oddly harsh and overly insistant that Athrun be killed instead of ordering a capture which Destiny and Legend could have easily pulled off. You'd think he'd want him alive for questioning but Durandal suddenly saw that if Athrun could escape in any fashion he could replace Kira as Lacus's Ace pilot and ruin everything so he wanted Athrun's ass dead to keep that from happening.

I think that it more that a non-compliant Athrun was useless to him.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Interesting that Durandal would want Athrun to be part of his inner circle given Athrun's known connections to Lacus; awfully risky and dumb move if - and I stress IF, my "he's-guilty-until-proven-innocent" friends - Durandal planned to assassinate Lacus. So risky and dumb, in fact, that it's entirely out of character for pre-snapping Durandal. What does that possibly portend concerning his guilt or innocence pertaining to the assassination attempts on Lacus, I wonder? Hhhmmm....

There's nothing dumb about this move at all. Durandal already had to rely on all sorts of people who were sympathetic to Lacus, and Athrun's main value was as political figurehead. What's the worst that could happen? If Athrun was going to stab Durandal in the back because of the threat to Lacus, then so could any number of Lacus supporters. There wasn't any way for Durandal to know who any of them were. At Athrun could be observed and eliminated if need be.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Actually, and as an aside, one theory I have for why Durandal tried hard to bring Athrun into his inner circle was to ensure that Meer's takeover of the Lacus Clyne role would go smoothly; perhaps Durandal even hoped that Athrun would manage to persuade the real Lacus Clyne to tolerate the facade. However, back to the main discussion...

That shouldn't be necessary since, as Meer pointed out, nobody really knew anything concrete about Lacus.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The way that some on this thread have utterly dehumanized Durandal is terrible to read. Your approach to him is nothing short of Snidely Whiplash-esque. It's an approach that completely fails to appreciate how complex and unique a character that Durandal is. No wonder wingdarkness responds to it the way that he does...

I find this to be a very strange remark. Indeed, I'd say that Durandal is an extremely human character, and that a lot can be said about him because of his depth. That seems to be the very opposite of a Snidely Whiplash caricature.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It was clear that Durandal gave Athrun the Faith autonomy so that Athrun wouldn't feel compelled to toe any line. Even at the most sinister of motivations of tricking Athrun into joining, it gave Athrun every right and reason to voice his views to Durandal openly. The fact that they had to ret-con insinuations of sinister manipulation into the story doesn't change that that was why Athrun joined it.

There isn't any ret-con of Durandal's character going on. Durandal's reason for giving Athrun the FAITH badge was to buy him by giving him something that he had gone without for the last two years. It's not entirely manipulation since Athrun was an active participant in this, but it's not exactly an act of generosity either.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He voiced his doubt in the hanger when Legend was assigned to him. In response Durandal set him up with the pictures and sent in the guards. Running away might have been reckless but by then they've realized not to take Durandal lightly. Athrun didn't just run off for no reason.

He also went behind nobodys back. He told Talia he was going to make contact with AA and he told her that he did just that when he returned. It wasn't supposed to be secret at all.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Durandal clearly wanted a close relationship with Athrun as per...

Actually, Durandal never had any inclination of allowing Athrun to keep him in line, which is precisely what led to their falling out.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Not exactly. I don't believe he was a monster persay. I just believe he had zero faith in humanity and no respect for the individual and their own wishes and dreams.
Durandal saw all of humanity as numbers and statistics. So long as he could keep say 80 percent of humanity alive without war that's what was going to do and was justified in all of that because of the means to ends and all that.

But I believe there were very few people he actually respected on a personal level and wished for a world where basically everybody did as they were told and didn't put much thought into why or what they were doing.

This list is a total of Rau and Rey; he acknowledged Lacus and Kira, but I don't know how much he actually respected them for who they were. Durandal never respected Talia enough to let her in on his plans, and this even though he loved her through all those years.

[Rickketik]

wow...just wow.
It has been like what 4 years since Destiny ended? And you guys are still discussing about it?
I guess this proves how popular and successful it was and still kind of is.

It did however fail to meet my expectations (bad story telling, crappy characters, stock animation) didn't live up to seed at all.

[Dark Shikra]

Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream

It is a book by Machiavelli during the Middle Ages and it shows what the ruler must do in order to maintain his power (or something along that line as I never read the book but learned about it in history class).

Oh... I thought it is some character I missed out in the anime. Anyway, I think ruling people with fear will only result in the beginning of hatred and desire to overthrow. So it's better to rule ppl that trust and love you, and not fear and hate you. PLUS who says if you rule with love (gosh so corny) you cannot rule with power at the same time.

ANyways this is my reply to the topic question.

If gsd fail, it's all because of how they build up the main character. All problems lies with Shinn. Shinn doesn't have one very very very important thing a main character should have, and that is LIKEABLE.

He is just a generic Kira wannabe that is arrogant but dumb and pitiful but pathetic. I know that he has a very sad past - lost his parents and his sister he has a crazy complex for. But HELLO? Who doesn't lose things in life and in war?? While it is sad that Orb is supposed to be a peaceful country, but the story makes it as though Shinn is the only most pitiful victim from war. Come on now! There are people who have faced worst.

I admit it is not Shinn's fault. Blame it on scriptwriter. But that does not make him any bit more likeable. It is possible to like an arrogant cocky character. But he has to be smart and calm.. not stupid and hot-tempered like Shinn. See Lelouch? He is arrogant and cocky but he's smart and calm. A likeable character.

But what make Shinn totally unlikeable is because he hurt Athrun's girl Cagalli. Athrun and Cagalli already has a fanbase, and this new guy comes out and scold her?? It is actually okay if you make a generic Kira wannabe but this guy scolding top favourite characters from previous instalments????? That already pisses a portion of fans off.

Next Shinn becomes more unlikeable when he go on crazy SEED mode and kills the commander who took care of him and kind of saved him from war. That gives him another negative trait - heartless. Maybe he doesn't know who the commander is, but WE the audience know. The fans know, and we are the ones who determine the outcome of the anime because see here? Why did they have to bring Kira and Lacus back? Because this main character is soooo screwed. Most characters who screw around like that (like scolding Cagalli) are side characters which will later grow to understand characters like Cagalli. thye really made Shinn look like a side character. Plus he didn't at all redeem himself throughout the anime. He just got more and more pathetic. I'm sure many fans are happy when Athrun punched him hard. ohhh and when I say many fans, I mean the ones who make Shinn step aside and ones who make the developers bring Kira back.

gsd should have made Rey the main character. One who is harbouring hatred and plotting revenge against the ultimate coordinator. Rey and Durandal pair up? it is going to be so epic especially if Rey, influenced by the main villain has the power of main character. they could make the ending the same as in destiny - Rey understood Kira and died with Durandal (or better yet dont make him die). maybe it would be a similar storyline but with much much better content. Then maybe Shinn will be more likeable too if he's just a character in the sidelines that has a really sad past.

Anyways ya I am saying that Shinn (or the creator of Shinn: Morosawa I assume???) caused gsd to fail.

But if you ask me whether gsd fail or not I say no.
Maybe it fails as a really really good anime on par with SEED but it definitely didn't fail in terms of commercialism.

[yezhanquan]

Those who rule with "love" must be willing to make tough decisions if the situation calls for it. That's what Machiavelli meant. To follow a path of ruling through "love" alone is a recipe for disaster.

Shinn's script was really badly written. Again, I'm reminded of the rumours that Morosawa didn't particularly like SuzuKen.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

If gsd fail, it's all because of how they build up the main character. All problems lies with Shinn. Shinn doesn't have one very very very important thing a main character should have, and that is LIKEABLE.

He is just a generic Kira wannabe that is arrogant but dumb and pitiful but pathetic. I know that he has a very sad past - lost his parents and his sister he has a crazy complex for. But HELLO? Who doesn't lose things in life and in war?? While it is sad that Orb is supposed to be a peaceful country, but the story makes it as though Shinn is the only most pitiful victim from war. Come on now! There are people who have faced worst.

I admit it is not Shinn's fault. Blame it on scriptwriter. But that does not make him any bit more likeable. It is possible to like an arrogant cocky character. But he has to be smart and calm.. not stupid and hot-tempered like Shinn. See Lelouch? He is arrogant and cocky but he's smart and calm. A likeable character.

While I sort of agree with the likeability factor initially, it's readily apparent that the creators were trying to do something rather interesting with Shinn's character. Their goal was to set him up as someone who was trying to do the right thing, but to act against his own interest because of buying into propaganda Moreover, he had been intended to lose from the very beginning, which strongly colors the way he's presented. It's a set of writing that's hard to pull off at the best of times, and while the creators gave a good go of it, I don't think that it worked completely. This is another of Destiny's traits that'd I'd qualify as a daring idea with a flawed execution.

I started out disliking him on the basis that the creators were going to try to vindicate his less appealing qualities. On seeing how they intended the whole show, I find Shinn to be a much more sympathetic character.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

gsd should have made Rey the main character. One who is harbouring hatred and plotting revenge against the ultimate coordinator. Rey and Durandal pair up? it is going to be so epic especially if Rey, influenced by the main villain has the power of main character. they could make the ending the same as in destiny - Rey understood Kira and died with Durandal (or better yet dont make him die). maybe it would be a similar storyline but with much much better content. Then maybe Shinn will be more likeable too if he's just a character in the sidelines that has a really sad past.

Rey is one of the two characters that had to be fleshed out more if Destiny was to be completely successful. It's quite obvious to see where the lack of attention to him hurt the show.

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Shinn's script was really badly written. Again, I'm reminded of the rumours that Morosawa didn't particularly like SuzuKen.

The writing for Shinn isn't so much bad as it was incomplete and structurally unsound. The latter problem seems to be a case of creative differences among the staff. I haven't seen any substance to the rumors about Morosawa though, and I don't see any truth to them.

[Dark Shikra]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Those who rule with "love" must be willing to make tough decisions if the situation calls for it. That's what Machiavelli meant. To follow a path of ruling through "love" alone is a recipe for disaster.

Shinn's script was really badly written. Again, I'm reminded of the rumours that Morosawa didn't particularly like SuzuKen.

Did you read my post? Did you really?
You rule with love doesn't mean you cannot make tough decisions. You don't have to be ruthless to be making tough decisions.

I started out disliking him on the basis that the creators were going to try to vindicate his less appealing qualities. On seeing how they intended the whole show, I find Shinn to be a much more sympathetic character.

You see what I mean??? You dislike him either way. It is ok to sympathize him, I agree he is a pitiful character. But the idea would be better if they make Shinn more likeable. Cuz just because you want the main character to lose everything doesnt mean he shouldnt be rendered unlikeable. Shinn is so screwed up as a main character in terms of likeability. I feel sorry for him about that but I still dislike him for all the stupid things he said and done.

Rey is one of the two characters that had to be fleshed out more if Destiny was to be completely successful. It's quite obvious to see where the lack of attention to him hurt the show.

Definitely!! Rey has so much potential to be a good main character. They can actually apply Shinn's concept to him too about losing everything. Rey pretty much is more sympathetic than Shinn if you ask me. He's a clone. He lost Rau. He's gonna die. Too bad Kira was too popular and they created a generic him instead.

I'd rather have Rey come back as a second Rau that knows all of Rau's plans in SEED yet disagrees with Rau but is mad at Kira for killing him; it probably happened in Destiny but not enough. Next he realizes that Shinn loathes Kira too and uses Shinn to fight Kira since he has SEED mode. If Rey was the or one of the main characters gsd would be so much more epic that way. But this is all just speculation. Too late for any more major changes!

[yezhanquan]

More often than not, making tough decisions are ruthless acts. Those people who are hurt often can't/don't listen to "for the greater good" explanations.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

You see what I mean??? You dislike him either way. It is ok to sympathize him, I agree he is a pitiful character. But the idea would be better if they make Shinn more likeable. Cuz just because you want the main character to lose everything doesnt mean he shouldnt be rendered unlikeable. Shinn is so screwed up as a main character in terms of likeability. I feel sorry for him about that but I still dislike him for all the stupid things he said and done.

I do see where you're coming from, but I also recall that, when Destiny was airing, there were a large number of viewers who liked his character. Moreover, I've grown sympathetic enough to the way that he's presented, that I sort of like him as well.

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

More often than not, making tough decisions are ruthless acts. Those people who are hurt often can't/don't listen to "for the greater good" explanations.

There are enough differences between making tough decisions and being ruthless, that they can be considered two completely different concepts.