2010-08-29, 15:39 | Link #16781 |
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I have a completely different idea on the matter.
Meta-Battler can't be the detective, only Battler can. The detective cannot use supernatural agencies as a way of investigation, therefore having a metaworld POV and a metaworld knowledge is a blatant infringement of that rule. Plus the detective must be a character inside a story not a metaentity that looks over it from a different plane of existence. Finally Meta-Battler sees fake scenes all the time. The only one that never sees fake scenes is Battler not Meta-Battler. Sure Meta-Battler is the one that has more chances to find a solution, but he's on the same level of a reader. To say that Meta-Battler is the real detective is the same as to say that the real detective of a mystery novel is the one who reads it.
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2010-08-29, 15:48 | Link #16782 | |
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I don't think seeing fake scenes is any big deal, as that's a deception played on the eyes of the detective. The red etc. are arguably not supernatural investigative methods, but rules firmly established and thus "natural" for the investigative portion of the narrative. It's a bit out there, and I don't think that he's going with that (because if he did, for instance, Battler could be helping a culprit or somesuch), but I think he could. It's not hard to read Knox and Dine in a fashion which makes the meta-detective entirely permissible, and in fact, it makes his information-gathering easier for the reader to grasp. Battler-the-piece can't be the detective if all episodes in aggregate constitute "the mystery." It may be arguable to make him the detective for prior episodes, but I think it would make more sense that the one persistent intellect acting on the role of the human side player - BATTLER - is the detective for ep1-4.
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2010-08-29, 16:03 | Link #16783 |
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I'm wondering if the initial letters asking for the group to solve the epitaph might actually be written by Natsuhi as part of her attempt to prevent the problems caused by Kinzo's death and Krauss's embezzlement. After all:
-We know from episode five that Natsuhi refers to Beatrice as an "alchemy counselor" for the Ushiromiya family or Kinzo. No one else has been seen referring to Beatrice and alchemy. The initial letter in episodes one and two refer to Beatrice as an "alchemist" for the family. -The letters are sealed with Kinzo's seal. While it's possible that it could be forged, the siblings seem immediately convinced that it's real. Someone living in the main house could easily take possession of Kinzo's ring for the sake of a letter. -The initial letters do not refer to murder. The siblings interpret them as being a threat to the inheritance immediately. What if this is exactly how they're supposed to think about it? -Krauss brings up the possibility of money from solving the epitaph in the family conference. The other siblings think that he's joking about it. However, if the gold WAS found, his deal benefits him very nicely, doesn't it? And it's good for him if they agree to how it'd be split beforehand, and when the other siblings don't even believe the gold exists, isn't it? This would mean that Natsuhi and Krauss have a plot about the epitaph running, someone else (I suspect Kyrie) has a fake murder plot running, and a third party knows about both (Nanjo is in a good position for this, given he knows Kinzo is dead but lies about it at the conference anyway and also is needed for the fake murder plot to go off), hijacks them, and uses them as noise to prevent discovery. |
2010-08-29, 18:20 | Link #16785 | ||
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I'd say 'accept everything as truth until it's contradicted', but well, pretty much everything ends up contradicted. Maybe, if we could pinpoint a specific writer for every episode, we could tell what are they inclined to lie about... Quote:
It is likewise reasonable that Natsuhi in particular might be responsible for firing that plan off since she can't conceal Kinzo's death any longer.
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2010-08-29, 18:52 | Link #16786 |
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Personally, I think it is rather clear the detective is Piece Battler and not Meta Battler.
Meta Battler's case about him not being the detective in EP5 was that Piece Battler had seen things that were not supposed to be there. Meta Battler has been seeing supernatural things from day 1, yet it isn't until Piece Battler starts seeing them that he's no longer the detective.
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2010-08-29, 18:56 | Link #16787 | |
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Also... If Shkanon, then Piece-Battler is seeing supernaturally effective disguise.
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2010-08-29, 19:28 | Link #16789 | ||
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Piece-Battler is the detective in each of the first four Beatrice's games, considering each game as a detective novel per se. As for the biggest story, the one we are reading, it isn't even a murder mystery novel.
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2010-08-29, 19:28 | Link #16790 | |
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While I can't offer any particular argument against your last point, in Japanese, anyone writing about Kinzo in a formal manner would use "-sama." It would be even more formal to use Ushiromiya-sama I suppose, but that would lose a lot of clarity as to who's being talked about. Looking through the TIPS for episodes one and two, however, it seems pretty evident that the later letters are written in a slightly different style and a tone than the first. The second letter-writer in episode one seems to be trying to mimic the style of the initial letter most of the time. The second letter-writer in episode two... doesn't seem to be trying at all. I'm not sure if it indicates different people or simply different circumstances, but to me it's very evident, thinking about it, that the purpose of the initial letter is completely different from the others. On another note: I seem to remember that the initial letter in episode four was supposed to have been given to Maria by Kinzo. Is that right? (I recently had to move to a different computer, so I can't readily go through episode four.) If so, did they mention who exactly the letter was supposed to be from? |
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2010-08-29, 19:32 | Link #16791 |
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In episode 4 it is said that Maria admitted that Kinzo gave her the letter. However this is very doubtful. And I mean it's doubtful that Maria admitted that, because as for her having received the letter from Kinzo it's impossible.
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2010-08-29, 19:56 | Link #16792 | ||
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It is even said by Beatrice in Episode 2, that it's a surprise that it's Rosa who would meet her in the garden, but in the end it wouldn't matter who would be the one to deliver her letter. And while Virgilia is implied to be the former Beatrice, she cannot have had this role anywhere on the island. That is unless you assume that the prankster Gaap we witness in EP7 is actually Kumasawa and she was only changed later into Virgilia. Quote:
Let's resume what Battler actually did and did not see in each of the first 4 Episodes. I'm not talking about BATTLER who is like us, getting the story read out to him, but piece Battler in each individual story. Episode 1: In this one Battler is not present in any scene where supposedly magical things happen. He also never meets both Shannon and Kanon at the same time. He meets Kanon out in the rose garden, then Shannon in the guesthouse, then I think Kanon brings them to the mansion, then Shannon serves tea and brings them back to the mansion. After that Shannon is unaccounted for and Battler never sees her corpse and he also does not see Kanon actually die. Also, during the final confrontation in front of the portrait nothing at all magical happens. They are in panic, Maria runs over to a person he cannot see properly due to the shadows and then it's game over. Episode 2: Again Battler does not witness any magic involved in the killings, he did not even once see that mysterious guest who is supposed to reside in the honoured guestroom. And again he never witnessed both Kanon and Shannon at the same time, on day 1 because of practically the same events as Episode 1 and on day 2 because Kanon and Jessica immediatly ran off after the discovery of the 1st twilight and Kanon was never seen again by him. While everyone was dying around him, he was tailing Rosa because she seemed to be the most suspicious to him. When he gave up he began drinking, which could account for some of the rather impressive sights he has at the end of the game. But what did he actually witness?! Genji invited him up to the study on an order from お館様 (the master of this mansion) and in the study he met a woman who introduced herself as Beatrice and a Kinzo who was astonishingly silent. Remember that Kinzo has not been burnt that Episode and we have to assume that the culprit knows about the whereabouts of his corpse, so placing him in a chair is no big problem. Everything that happened during the ceremony of the opening to the Golden Land can be madness accounted to whatever that Beatrice told him. Battler, Kinzo and Genji being 'torn apart by the demons, when the door to the Golden Land opened at the strike of midnight' is even a nice representation of them being torn apart by the explosion. Episode 3: Battler is in the guesthouse most of the time. Kanon and Shannon again fail to appear before him as a duo during day 1 and after the 1st twilight he never goes to check upon Kanon's corpse in the chapel, yet we can assume that he actually saw Shannon's corpse/body in the parlour. The first time on the 2nd day when he leaves the parlour is, I think I remember correctly, when they go to the mansion to check up on Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi missing. Only later when only Nanjo, Jessica, Eva and he himself are left does he leave the guesthouse again. The only thing he witnesses are Natsuhi and Krauss strangled in the rosegarden, probably George and Shannon in the parlour and Jessica getting shot in the eye during her struggle with Eva. From then on until the end he is with Eva up to the point when she (out of random change of heart as it seems then) shoots him. Episode 4: Battler is again in the guesthouse, this time it seems he never even went to the mansion for dinner, because Kinzo appeared during dinner. Kanon and Shannon are never even once at their place from that point on (as we see them both being trapped in the dungeons), everything he knows about the events at the mansion he knows from Kumasawa and Gohda. He has contact with people over the phone who tell him there are demons and witches, but he never witnesses them. And around midnight of the first day he and Maria receive a call from a woman who calls herself Beatrice and who says she is with Kinzo. He goes to the mansion and meets a woman on top of the balcony of the study, who treats him to a little mindgame and when he refuses goes back inside and leaves him to his fate. When he does his round the next day, he finds every person he knew on the island dead, the only corpse he cannot find (following Kyrie's description) is Kanon's corpse, because the way seems to be sealed shut. At the end of the 2nd day, being totally devestated, he goes to the rosegarden, where he is completely alone and yet will be killed by Beatrice. Now where exactly did Battler ever encounter any magical phenomena?!
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Last edited by chounokoe; 2010-08-29 at 20:06. |
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2010-08-29, 20:04 | Link #16793 | |||
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We've been through that before. Supernatural -- or reader blindness -- is better for Shkanon in the long run.
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I also suspect that the letter that says "Praise my name" is part of the First Letter plan, and the "discord" magic circle is really an extra epitaph hint, to be used if everyone's particularly stuck -- it is just misunderstood like the first one.
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2010-08-29, 20:21 | Link #16794 | ||
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You're better off saying that he drank himself to sleep earlier and Genji never actually came for him in this particular case. Supernaturally effective Shannon/Kanon dichotomy. He observes them very close up and never even suspects anything could possibly be wrong.
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2010-08-29, 20:50 | Link #16795 | ||||
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I do think that if Natsuhi was going to write a letter like this, she'd want Kumasawa's help writing it, if she thought that she could trust her. Quote:
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2010-08-29, 21:00 | Link #16796 | |
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The only case you could make about Piece-Battler seeing supernatural things (in EPs 1-4, of course) would be the end of EP2. But by that point Meta-Battler had already given up, and Piece-Battler was drunk. Yeah, I've also said that Shkanon is just too convenient of a device. However, you do not really need supernatural abilities for that.
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2010-08-29, 21:26 | Link #16798 | ||
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And I would argue that while every episode is solvable independently, if there is indeed only one solution it cannot be found by looking at any single episode in the first four games. If it could be, then the game wouldn't have been declared solvable only at ep4.
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2010-08-29, 22:02 | Link #16799 | ||||
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She is everything you can see in a teacher or mentor, thus she was later constructed (with Maria's help) as the former Beatrice, because in Yasu's concept only a witch could teach another witch. We can also see the duel as Kumasawa trying to talk sense into Yasu and stopping her from whatever she is doing. But Yasu has by now lost all respect towards her and kills her despite everything. Quote:
Actually, wouldn't it be a much better reason to burn Kinzo if his corpse had been tampered with, than if it was just left to rot?! Quote:
My best friend is about 3inch taller than me, has much smaller shoulders, a different facial construct alltogether, yet even people in the university, who see us almost on a daily basis, manage to confuse us on every occasion and some even forget that there are two of us altogether. Once I spend almost an entire semester, convincing a professor of my existence. Believe me, it is entirely possible to pose as two people without much difficulty if one wants to. Quote:
Every Episode is a mystery on it's own, but the overarching truth only becomes solvable with at least 1-4. It's like a key to test of your reasoning is actually correct, as long as it withstands the events presented by another Episode. Battler is the detective figure of each independent Episode and BATTLER is an overarching detective figure looking for the truth beyond a momentary solution. I don't know why both can't exist at the same time for you.
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