[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I have asked you a simple question which you prove unable to answer so let me make this even easier for you : give me a single name which fit the points I mentioned.

Sarutobi Hiruzen


There, I just gave you a single name out of a sea of names of people who know or once knew Kakashi, and that's just the list of people whom we KNOW knows Kakashi. I'm not even sure what the point is you're trying to make with this.


Besides, for all we know it's someone who has been observing Konoha from the shadows, and thus knows stuff about everyone. Really I don't see why a personal connection is even necessary here.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that is clearly not what he is saying. you're just dodging since you can't offer another suggestion aside from perhaps rin which is problematic on many other levels

I really am amazed by how much you know about the way I think or why I do things. I take my hat off for you. You must be some kind of master psychoanalyst or something.

[GrahamAker]

Kindly add kagami and izuna to poll options.

[Artimus_Prime]

Kagami is at the very least possible. if for no other reason than we know nothing about him. then kishi could just have a background story prepared that explains who he is and the motivation for his actions. but this is the same for any other character that we nothing about, which makes it not very likely IMO. i tend to agree with other posters that kagamis role was to highlight the uchiha as part of the leadership of the village. Hiruzen himself mentions this (during the flashback where danzo talks to itachi about sasuke) that the uchiha were comrades. kagamis place on danzos team is evidence of that.…But for kagami to be tobi at this point in the story would be a very painful way to go but i will not deny that the avenue is still not yet closed.

as for izuna, i really like the idea. some tend to feel that izunas mention by madara to the kages closes the case and that he is peacefully in the grave, but i would like the situation where he didn't die. he certainly would be as knowledgable at tobi is. he doesn't have eyes, so i see why he would collect them. technically nagatos rinnegan is his. but it is probably more likely that his purpose was to be the container that eventually powers up madara, and gives some cause to the "hate" madara has that he mentions to the kages…avenue not yet closed tho

as for obitio, i could make a list. i won't tho…tobi has his eye, he is using his power. he got a gaiden devoted to him. you could say those are all red herrings, but by definition you'd be admitting that the author is at least leading us down that path, and has been since the end of part 1. even it is not wholly obito (which i don't think it is), there have been a number of details to suggest its him and this last chapter has been the most "neon lights" of them all…avenue definitely not closed

for fun, i'll throw in the elder son…i mean if you plan to rule the world by force, how else to do it than an ultimate genjutsu…

whoever tobi is, i don't think he is the final villain…not when sasuke, edo madara, and the juubi are still on the battlefield


all that said, I'm hopeful for a twist. i kinda want it to be two faces under the mask...

[prakash123]

put it simply..tobi is just mindfucking kakashi to catch him offguard or depress him(in hopes that kakashi actually thinks its obito and gets caught in diversity) thats when toni makes his move.because tobi very well knows that kakashi is the only person who can interupt him(in what sense).both their sharingans share the same dimension so when tobi gos in kakashi can send stuff in there to hit him.the only time they were able to hit tobi was when kakshi used kamui.tobi knew before hand that their MS dimensions were connected and when kakshi entered the battlefield things were gonna heat up so he had to do something to disrupt kakashi.thats what hes doing by acting like obito...or it could just be obito..

[Black0raz0r]

its Izuna in Obitos Body because why would he need Nagato to use the "Gedo Rinne Tensei no Jutsu" for himself "Madara" when he is "alife"? because he wants his brother Madara back....
or something like that

but lets see
3 days to go and Kishi is trolling us "haha I got you!! its Rin! :P "

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Sarutobi Hiruzen

There, I just gave you a single name out of a sea of names of people who know or once knew Kakashi, and that's just the list of people whom we KNOW knows Kakashi. I'm not even sure what the point is you're trying to make with this.

I really am amazed by how much you know about the way I think or why I do things. I take my hat off for you. You must be some kind of master psychoanalyst or something.

given that you cited sarutobi as an example, i guess it is true that i have no idea what you ware thinking. one of the prerequisites for your answer should have been that the character must possibly be tobi. hiruzen is not possibly tobi and therefore completely irrelevant to this discussion

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

Kagami is at the very least possible. if for no other reason than we know nothing about him. then kishi could just have a background story prepared that explains who he is and the motivation for his actions. but this is the same for any other character that we nothing about, which makes it not very likely IMO.

exactly. kagami is the same as a new character for all intents and purposes. i'd much rather have a new character since kagami already has 1 strike against him in my book. just look at his one line in the entire manga. not exactly major player stuff. more like normal uchiha stuff

whoever tobi is, i don't think he is the final villain…not when sasuke, edo madara, and the juubi are still on the battlefield

dont forget my favorite villain of all who was recently resurrected

Originally Posted by prakash123

because tobi very well knows that kakashi is the only person who can interupt him(in what sense). ... tobi knew before hand that their MS dimensions were connected and when kakshi entered the battlefield things were gonna heat up so he had to do something to disrupt kakashi.thats what hes doing by acting like obito...or it could just be obito..

i dont see it that way. tobi has taken these people very lightly and has been pretty much insulted by the fact that they seem to think they can fight on his level. if tobi thought kakashi was some kind of threat to him he would have taken care of him a long time ago. clearly kakashi is a threat, but tobi has not thought that, so why go to the lengths of concocting this supposed diabolical plan to break kakashi's mental state when he doesn't even view him as a problem in the first place?

[Mateus]

Originally Posted by Black0raz0r

but lets see
3 days to go and Kishi is trolling us "haha I got you!! its Rin! :P "

No...just no.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

given that you cited sarutobi as an example, i guess it is true that i have no idea what you ware thinking. one of the prerequisites for your answer should have been that the character must possibly be tobi. hiruzen is not possibly tobi and therefore completely irrelevant to this discussion

Nah I was actually trying to drive the point that he could literally be anyone. I know it's unlikely, I'm just trying to say it's not impossible. I will also admit I chose Hiruzen to be a troll and answer your question literally. Although technically, if he can be Madara, why can't he be Hiruzen? Both are confirmed to be dead. That's not to say I think it's Hiruzen, but he might be. My point exist that it could be anyone. And who's to say he's been specifically stalking Kakashi? What if he's been stalking all of the significant characters?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I will also admit I chose Hiruzen to be a troll and answer your question literally.

And sadly you only showed that the question flew completely above your head. The question was about which character would care so much about Kakashi's failure to save Rin that he would rant and mention it as a reason for putting the entire world under a never ending Genjutsu. "Somewhat knowing Kakashi" isn't an equivalent to this, not by a long shot and so Sarutobi fits none of the traits I mentioned.
So yes as I said you have no answer to this because the very idea that Tobi is Obito is so offensive to you that you seem to refuse to even aknowledge its mere possibility without even speaking of its likeliness at this point.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Personally I have no idea who Tobi can be. All I am saying is as I said in my post above. That Tobi is maybe simple using his knowledge. Which he can express trough anger just to mess with Kakashi up. He has shown to be very manipulating and deceptive.

That could be true if the story had focused on that, showing Kakashi unable to use Kamui because he couldn't bear the idea to strike at someone who might be Obito or things like that but it didn't happen. We had a single panel of Gai telling Kakashi to get his shit together and that's that. This manga isn't what you would call subtle, I have nothing against the idea of Tobi messing with their heads but if it was the case we would have had much more of it.

At this point there is only two venues for Tobi being another character :

• First the Nagato way, a lenghty flashback introducing the character. After so long it wasn't very likely but the Sasuke substory with "those who know everything" could have leaded to such flashback. It should have happened before things got serious with Tobi's battle though, now that his mask is broken it's very unlikely.
• Secondly the plotholes way, the last two chapters made Obito the painfully obvious answer but older ones made Obito near impossible (like the Kyubi recognizing him or Tobi saying to Kushina he had waited for this a very long time) so one of those has to give.

But truly the most likely at this point is Obito with a twist. A twist probably the size of Zetsu which seem an essential part of the Tobi mystery and is just as much an enigma when all is said and done.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

dont forget my favorite villain of all who was recently resurrected

ha! how could i forget Mr. "please don't hide your fledgeling uchiha"

Originally Posted by Hunter

And sadly you only showed that the question flew completely above your head. The question was about which character would care so much about Kakashi's failure to save Rin that he would rant and mention it as a reason for putting the entire world under a never ending Genjutsu. "Somewhat knowing Kakashi" isn't an equivalent to this, not by a long shot and so Sarutobi fits none of the traits I mentioned.
So yes as I said you have no answer to this because the very idea that Tobi is Obito is so offensive to you that you seem to refuse to even aknowledge its mere possibility without even speaking of its likeliness at this point.

this is funny

Originally Posted by Hunter

At this point there is only two venues for Tobi being another character :

• Secondly the plotholes way, the last two chapters made Obito the painfully obvious answer but older ones made Obito near impossible (like the Kyubi recognizing him or Tobi saying to Kushina he had waited for this a very long time) so one of those has to give.

story may very well reveal that there have been at least two masked characters

Originally Posted by Hunter

But truly the most likely at this point is Obito with a twist. A twist probably the size of Zetsu which seem an essential part of the Tobi mystery and is just as much an enigma when all is said and done.

two faces under the mask??!? what at a twist!!

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

story may very well reveal that there have been at least two masked characters

If this Tobi is Obito it's close to certain that the long haired Tobi was someone else but it's the short haired S/T jutsu user I was referring to.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

So yes as I said you have no answer to this because the very idea that Tobi is Obito is so offensive to you that you seem to refuse to even aknowledge its mere possibility without even speaking of its likeliness at this point.

You know it's terribly hard to argue with people who keep thinking that they know what I think. I mean I can say the same to you, "The idea that Tobi isn't Obito is so offensive to you that you seem to refuse or even acknowledge its mere possibility without even speaking of its unlikeliness at this points.".

First of all I'm not offended by the notion, it just wouldn't make sense to me and no matter how you sugarcoat the plotholes, a plot hole is a plot hole. It needs some ridiculously good writing to take care of them all.

[yakumo-chan]

Originally Posted by Dengar

First of all I'm not offended by the notion, it just wouldn't make sense to me and no matter how you sugarcoat the plotholes, a plot hole is a plot hole. It needs some ridiculously good writing to take care of them all.

actually its not a "PLOT HOLE" yet... there things that can still be explained why tobi is Obito in the future. If there are things that cant be explained after the series has ended then yes, it is a plothole

[Dengar]

My point about it requiring some ridiculously good writing still stands. No one likes an ass pull.

[itachi-san314]

^it's going to need good writing regardless of the outcome. every theory has possible and likely flaws in it except for a new character which is in itself an asspull (and actually does have at least one flaw: tobi telling konan he's madara with no reason to lie after divulging other secrets)

[Hiking_Bear]

It would be more of an 'ass pull' if Tobi turned out to be someone other than Obito, like some never-before-seen character. All the clues point to Obito, so for Tobi to be someone else would require the revelation of a massive amount of backstory to fill in the complete gap in character development - typically, such a backstory would come 'out of one's ass'. Obito, on the other hand, has a backstory - there is no ass pull needed in this case.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You know it's terribly hard to argue with people who keep thinking that they know what I think.

Oh I don't, I actually find your thought process to be, well, let's understate it as unclear at best. I don't claim to understand what can possibly happen in your brain, I simply describe your incapacity to answer to anything brought to your attention when Obito is the subject at hand. And that, believe me, make things considerably more difficult to argue.

I mean I can say the same to you, "The idea that Tobi isn't Obito is so offensive to you that you seem to refuse or even acknowledge its mere possibility without even speaking of its unlikeliness at this points.".

Which considering how much I dislike the whole Tobito debacle and how often I brought up others theories in hope that it wouldn't came to be just proves yet again your tenuous grasp on the discussion.

It's not like I'm making a complicated argument, I've simply pointed out that no matter how much I don't like the idea of Tobi being Obito I can't help but notice that there is no other character in the story who has any reason to make an angry rant against Kakashi for his failure to keep his promise. I'd like nothing more than another answer to this question but I've asked you 5 times now and you didn't come up with anything, in fact it looks like you hardly even understood the question.

[Dengar]

To be fair, I have a lot of trouble expressing what I think sometimes. I can also add that English actually isn't my native language, but even without that I still would have trouble probably. Basically, what it comes down to, is that the entire way I view this "epic" hinges on how well (or how badly) Tobi's reveal is going to be handled. A lot of the theories I've heard in this thread are full of holes and would be terrible writing if it turned out to be exactly like that. That's not saying my theories are the best ever, but at least I'm attempting to append any possible plotholes with a possible explanation, at least to the best of my ability.

As for not understanding the question. Maybe I actually don't understand it. Is it THAT unthinkable that if you are fighting a person, and you know stuff about that person, for example by having spied on his home town for decades, that you're going to attempt to use that information to get him off guard. Also, hypothetically, if he isn't Obito, Kakashi still has Obito's other eye. Isn't that reason enough for wanting to keep an eye on the guy who has the other eye with inbuilt freaky space/time powers?

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

It would be more of an 'ass pull' if Tobi turned out to be someone other than Obito, like some never-before-seen character. All the clues point to Obito, so for Tobi to be someone else would require the revelation of a massive amount of backstory to fill in the complete gap in character development - typically, such a backstory would come 'out of one's ass'. Obito, on the other hand, has a backstory - there is no ass pull needed in this case.

Err let me clarify. The whole Obito = Tobi in and of itself wouldn't be the asspull. It's the circumstances around it. A sweet kid for whom friends are the most important thing in the world ever, suddenly wanting to end the world as we know it, just because he is 'tired of war', is the thing that would be the ass pull.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

It would be more of an 'ass pull' if Tobi turned out to be someone other than Obito, like some never-before-seen character. All the clues point to Obito, so for Tobi to be someone else would require the revelation of a massive amount of backstory to fill in the complete gap in character development - typically, such a backstory would come 'out of one's ass'. Obito, on the other hand, has a backstory - there is no ass pull needed in this case.

I remember how many people hoped that the akatsuki leader will be Minato, despite it made no sense
There are clues that point to Tobi being Obito, but there are even more clues that he is not Obito. It was not so long ago that we have seen Orochimaru rising from Anko's body and knowing everything about what happened with Sasuke. So someone knowing what happened with Obito and Kakashi doesn't sound so crazy any more.

The question is why would Obito suddenly become so important in the story. He was just one character in a side story about Kakashi. But then i realized that Obito's story was always part of the main story: in chapter 8 the ninja test of team 7, there Kakashi tells the team about Obito, and a few pages after that they pass while Kakashi tells them Obito's words exactly.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Err let me clarify. The whole Obito = Tobi in and of itself wouldn't be the asspull. It's the circumstances around it. A sweet kid for whom friends are the most important thing in the world ever, suddenly wanting to end the world as we know it, just because he is 'tired of war', is the thing that would be the ass pull.

sasuke was a sweet kid and was manipulated by evil forces like orochimaru and tobi. if tobi is obito then madara's and/or izuna's and/or RS's elder son's influence will surely come into play in a similar fashion. my money's still on madara, but we'll see

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I remember how many people hoped that the akatsuki leader will be Minato, despite it made no sense

and that is comparible to obito theory how? there is nothing that pointed to minato being pain, whereas there is plenty that points to obito being tobi. i thnk you're thinking of the kagami theory

The question is why would Obito suddenly become so important in the story. He was just one character in a side story about Kakashi. But then i realized that Obito's story was always part of the main story: in chapter 8 the ninja test of team 7, there Kakashi tells the team about Obito, and a few pages after that they pass while Kakashi tells them Obito's words exactly.

it all hinges on kakashi who is, believe it not, a main character in naruto. arguably #3 in importance and definitely top 5. tobi is important sure, but not as much as sasuke or orochimaru. and maybe not even madara.

i dont really see whats so hard to believe about tobi being important to kakashi's character. story wise, they are both on relatively equal importance on either side of good and bad in about the 3rd position from the top