2011-01-18, 15:54 | Link #7341 |
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Nice that we're talking about Shirley in the Lelouch thread. As for me, I think there'd never be any grave rolling from Euphie or Shirley (at least in terms of Zero: Requiem). For those two people, Lelouch was far more important than any hatred or fixed moral viewpoint. Euphemia forgave Lelouch's murder of her brother and countless other people in a bid to restore his and his sister's past happiness, even sacrificing her royal name to do so. Shirley on the other hand looked past the loss of her own father and, as a normal schoolgirl, a much more fundamental/instinctual rejection of death, terrorism against her own country, and destruction to instead devote her heart to saving Lelouch from a world of lies and loneliness. What Euphie and Shirley had, far above any moral certanties, was simply compassion for Lelouch's struggle and suffering. Their goal was to show him that the world wasn't so evil or lonely as he thought it was, and that there really was a place where he could reach and attain happiness.
And in the end, despite however much suffering (both his own and that of other people's) Lelouch had to swallow, that was ultimately what Lelouch passed the world with Zero Re:quiem as well. He made terrible sacrifices, yes, but from his heart Lelouch was passing on a message Shirley and Euphie had left to him: throw away your hatred, live for happiness tomorrow, the world is a better place than you thought it was. Shirley and Euphie were trying to teach Lelouch that hope exists, and that was precisely the essence of Zero Re:quiem's intention. It might be sad that it is not Lelouch receiving this message; it might be sad that Lelouch chose to give his own life up just to pass it to others--However I think ultimately, despite everything, Shirley and Euphie would have simply welcomed Lelouch with gentleness and happiness. Lelouch chose his path out of genuine hope and altruism. Whatever the outcome, he has also already paid in pain for it. Given these two things, from Shirley and Euphie's perspective, I think there really wouldn't be anything to do except to simply forgive him for it. If an omni-present perspective after death could give people anything, after all, that thing must certainly be compassion. 'Tadaima. You've worked hard. Now you can rest.' That's how I see it happening. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-01-18 at 16:09. |
2011-01-18, 18:01 | Link #7342 | |
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Then again, if Euphemia and/or Shirley were involved, it's rather likely that the plot would have ended up going in a significantly or moderately different direction to begin with. It would be a lot closer to a straightforward tale of personal redemption and forgiveness instead of a tale where the message of hope is born out of destruction and self-damnation (which makes it ring hollow for critics and cynics even if romantics and idealists tend to appreciate it). |
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2011-01-18, 23:51 | Link #7343 | |
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what about those who shared Suzaku's views? he apparently had a lot of support hence why Deithard wanted Kallen to assassinate him. Those people just don't have a say? Starting a fight that will cost them their lives, a fight they didn't want midn you, is somehow righteous?
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2011-01-19, 00:13 | Link #7344 | |
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*agrees with Sol Falling*
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Zero had just as many supporters as Euphie's Knight did, but the difference is that Suzaku was merely lucky. Without the Lancelot, even without Euphie, no one would ever have believed in his methods - heck, he'd have died long ago -, and even then, his chances weren't all that great. No one has the "right" to drag people into something life-threatening, but no one has the "right" to support a cruel tyranny at their expense, either. You should think the Shinjuku massacre and Cornelia's attempt to repeat it can speak for themselves where the Empire's opinion of "Numbers" is concerned. Suzaku only worried about methods, Schneizel only cared about results. Lelouch claimed to only care about results, but actually was fairly conscious of the means he used to achieve them, and in theory, I think that's a good idea. Edit: Forgot some words. xD
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2011-01-19, 01:54 | Link #7345 | ||
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Remove every personal aspect from Lelouch's revolution, and I'm not sure if even Lelouch himself would believe it was right to have started it. edit: lol, Nogitsune, sorry for disagreeing with you right after you back me up on the Shirley issue. I think the important point of Suzaku's righteousness, is that the result he is looking at is actually Japan's happiness. For Lelouch, meanwhile, his desired result was actually Britannia's destruction, with Japan's happiness coming about as an after-effect. Or if we put it this way: for Lelouch, the result of Japan's happiness was also less important than the means of Britannia's destruction, just like Suzaku's result was secondary to his means of reforms internally. The difference is, one path embraced needless death and destruction for personal reasons, whereas the other one tried its best to prevent loss on either side, no matter the victim. Lelouch and Suzaku's characters both change throughout the series eventually--Lelouch slowly accepting more and more heroism as his responsibility (although still driven by revenge first and foremost I think), Suzaku meanwhile growing more and more uninhibited in his pursuit of power (again still for Japan; a fascinating contrast morally)--but at least at the start of the series, I think there is absolutely no question who is the more righteous one. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-01-19 at 02:42. |
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2011-01-19, 09:40 | Link #7346 | ||||||
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2011-01-19, 20:28 | Link #7347 | |
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One thing about Suzaku was that he wanted death more than he wanted to achieve his goal. Perhaps his main thought was to be killed instead of changing Britania from within, which makes him a giga hypocrite. |
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2011-01-21, 10:22 | Link #7348 |
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If all Suzaku cared about was dying to atone for killing his father, he would've committed suicide. He wanted, above all else, for his death to at least have some meaning. That's why when Jeremiah and Villetta frame him for Clovis' murder, he is fine with being executed for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, he is getting his punishment of killing his father, but he is also taking responsibility to save all the other Honarary Britannians from suffering. This is why he doesn't escape/join the resistance. He even says it on screen, "if I go, they'll go after all the honorary Britannians". Besides, Suzaku didn't lose faith in the system like Lelouch and Kallen...
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2011-01-21, 13:23 | Link #7349 | ||
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2011-01-21, 14:31 | Link #7350 |
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Lelouch only cared about people other than himself, Nunnaly and Suzaku, when they were of some use to him in his crusade against daddy.
He hijacked the resistance movement in Japan because he needed an army to accomplish his goals. Liberating Japan and handing out their own form of justice was just how he manipulated them. Lelouch was a genius, and he had lived in Japan for a long time, he understood the Japanese mindset and knew exactly what buttons to push. He never gave a crap about the cause, and it became pretty obvious in episode 25, when he leaves Tokyo and cuts off all communications with the BKs. Now, as for the righteousness part, at least in the first Season, Suzaku has no innocent blood in his hands. He goes by the book, even when he is falsely accused of murder, and is facing a rigged trial and execution, he stands by his beliefs. He says that courtrooms is where the truth comes out, and if he is found guilty because the trial is a farce like Lelouch says it is, then he doesn't want to live in such a world. I think that is pretty righteous of him...standing by what is right...Not like Lelouch and Kallen who like to lash out at the world. Suzaku doesn't even go for kills, except post-Euphie's death. Kallen and Lelouch, well, narita ring a bell? What about the JLF Tanker? At least Kallen has the excuse of following orders, but Lelouch? HE was the one giving the frakkin orders! What's his excuse? Oh and with Katase in the tanker he didn't even bother to bring Kallen in on plan, he did it on his own, but not before mind-raping a vulnerable, easy to manipulate Kallen with some bullshit about shedding more blood because if they don't kill more people those who are dead would've died in vain....
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2011-01-21, 15:38 | Link #7351 | |
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2011-01-21, 16:01 | Link #7352 | ||||||||
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He also only got his Geass because he was the only one who could be bothered to help the victims of a car accident. The same can't be said for, oh, I don't know, Rivalz and about a hundred other people? In episode 5, Lelouch talked to C.C. about the suffering he had witnessed as a child and about how he wanted to end it. He and Suzaku were saying the exact same things until they arrived at how they were going to go about it. Just because Suzaku has no idea what he is doing, doesn't mean he's a better person. Lelouch didn't intentionally kill innocents until fairly late in the series. Even Narita was a miscalculation - yeah, he got ahead of himself, but he never resolved to kill civilians (most of whom had probably been evacuated already, anyway). He was surprised by the extend of the damage done to the mountain side. Quote:
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Suzaku sticks to the rules because he's afraid of doing anything else - because the last time he didn't, he kiled his own father and watched his people suffer the consequences. One could argue that he's not being righteous in the slightes, but a coward. It'd be slightly over the top in my opinion, but it seems more valid to me than the claim that Lelouch didn't give a damn when he explicitly stated otherwise even when it didn't benefit him. Quote:
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2011-01-21, 16:09 | Link #7353 |
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It can be believed that Lelouch intended to have the innocents gathered to migrate to the new Japan that Euphemia created killed in order to heighten his own crusade. It's my opinion that Lelouch was more than willing to kill anyone (other than Nunally) to reach his goals. His geass command on Euphemia may have seemed accidental but likely was the result of his own hidden desires and motivations.
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2011-01-21, 16:09 | Link #7354 | |
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He knew Zero geassed Euphie into massacring the Elevens at the Special Zone.
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2011-01-21, 16:14 | Link #7355 | |||
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2011-01-21, 16:17 | Link #7356 |
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Because geass is an extension of the user's will. As Lelouch himself says near the end of R2, "It's like a wish, don't you think?" Therefore, it may not have been a conscious desire but it was still present (and strong enough to manifest itself).
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2011-01-21, 16:34 | Link #7357 | |
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If I remember correctly, C.C. herself says that as Geass grows more powerful, the bearer loses control over it, and that it merely depends on how much he uses it. Also, didn't she react to the change in Lelouch's Geass before he gave his order? He could have said, "Clean the toilets!" and it would have had taken effect all the same, but that wouldn't mean Lelouch secretly wanted Euphie to clean the toilets. There's no reason for Lelouch to have wanted a massacre. Just killing a few Japanese would have had pretty much the same effect (with less psychological demage for him, I'd say), and just having Euphie shoot him would have served his purposes well enough. Though if Lelouch was actively surpressing his secret desire to pull a Vampire of Britannia all this time, that's actually quite admirable! ;P
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2011-01-21, 16:51 | Link #7358 | |||||||
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If they won't bow down, they need to be put down. Quote:
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2011-01-21, 17:03 | Link #7360 | |||||||
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Saying Britannia is all right and Lelouch is evil is something I can't even fathom. Quote:
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