[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

If you're going that route: What was it that Kinzo believed even though everyone said he was wrong, and how did he "abandon that belief?"

There are certainly some things that one could say Kinzo believed that others did not, but when did he abandon those beliefs, especially in light of ep7 suggesting he was vindicated in his belief in the end?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Renall

If you're going that route: What was it that Kinzo believed even though everyone said he was wrong, and how did he "abandon that belief?"

There are certainly some things that one could say Kinzo believed that others did not, but when did he abandon those beliefs, especially in light of ep7 suggesting he was vindicated in his belief in the end?

2 possibilities:

1. His love for Beatrice
2. As a very pessimistic example: His view that his life is empty and worthless and he should just be left to die.

[fg204]

The problem I have with Kinzo is that Beato here seems to be showing the kind of sympathy she only shows to people she really cares about, and I just can't imagine her having anything other than antipathy toward Kinzo considering all the things he did to her, both directly and indirectly. To be fair, this is PieceBeato we're talking about here (possibly being controlled by the GM Lambda), so who knows what she's referring to.

Speaking of possible antipathy toward Kinzo, here's an interesting little tidbit between Kanon/Shannon just before their duel in EP6.

Spoiler:

Even though it's been shown many times in previous episodes that Kanon/Shannon consider each other as siblings, this is actually the first time they ever speak of a common "Father" from whom they are "born". You can definitely feel their self-hatred (eg. "it would have been better if we had died right after being born") and antipathy (eg. "So he can just die. Let them all die.") seething through in this conversation. Given all of this, who do you think this "Father" is referring to? At first, it sure seemed to suggest that they were talking about Battler considering the way the RevivedBeato initially called him "father" and the way that this "sin" is brought up (reminiscent of EP4). However, in contrast to the other scene talking about the "strength of the man who believed even though everyone said he was wrong", the pure hatred and antipathy shown toward this "Father" here leads me to believe that it must have been referring to Kinzo, since I just can't believe that they have it in them to hate Battler like this.

Overall, it just seems like these magic and/or meta scenes are just full of interesting moments like this after going back and rereading them. What does everyone else think?

[GreyZone]

I think I was misunderstood. I was merely trying to say that an interpretation using Kinzo for that "man" is at least possible. I also think that it seems very unlikely that he was ment by it. I actually think that the Kinzo interpretation is trap. Maybe R07 wanted to create a red herring to make people believe that Beatrice was talking about Kinzo. After all the duel scene in EP6 was not known to the viewers at that time, same with EP7. At that moment Kinzo was still a complete mystery.

[Drifloon]

The problem I have with Kinzo is that Beato here seems to be showing the kind of sympathy she only shows to people she really cares about, and I just can't imagine her having anything other than antipathy toward Kinzo considering all the things he did to her, both directly and indirectly. To be fair, this is PieceBeato we're talking about here (possibly being controlled by the GM Lambda), so who knows what she's referring to.

Beatrice does actually talk about Kinzo in an affectionate manner a lot, which makes sense really; part of the "thousand-year old witch" persona she's adopting involves taking on the other two Beatrices' stories as her own, so it's a natural part of the roleplay. That said, I really don't think she is referring to Kinzo there. I really think it would make more sense if she was talking about herself, but it seems odd for her to use male pronouns in that context. I'd be interested to know whether a specific gender was implied in the original Japanese.

As for the part about their "father", I always wondered whether that was referring to Yasu, given that s/he is the one that created both Shannon and Kanon. Assuming that Shannon and Kanon represent Yasu's love for George and Jessica (as they generally seem to during EP6), it makes sense that they might think that Yasu should have destroyed those feelings within herself before allowing them to go anywhere, thus "dying right after being born". In that case, their father's "sin" is the same sin that's brought up throughout the episode, of trying to achieve love despite being furniture which is unworthy of love.

I'd have problems interpreting their "father" as Kinzo there because it isn't actually Kinzo's fault that Yasu didn't die; he didn't know anything about it. If this scene was really meant to be talking about Yasu's regret that she didn't die after falling off the cliff, Genji and Nanjo are the ones she should be blaming, and calling them "father" is a real stretch.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Genji and Nanjo are the ones she should be blaming, and calling them "father" is a real stretch.

On the other hand, in EP6 when going to save Battler Kanon mentions that if there is one person he could call father, it'd be Genji.

I also think this could be consciously left vague, as the concept of parents and children, creations and creators, offspring and origin are key concepts to Umineko and it leaves a lot of room to think who that "father" who made them live actually is.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

As for the part about their "father", I always wondered whether that was referring to Yasu, given that s/he is the one that created both Shannon and Kanon. Assuming that Shannon and Kanon represent Yasu's love for George and Jessica (as they generally seem to during EP6), it makes sense that they might think that Yasu should have destroyed those feelings within herself before allowing them to go anywhere, thus "dying right after being born". In that case, their father's "sin" is the same sin that's brought up throughout the episode, of trying to achieve love despite being furniture which is unworthy of love.

Honestly, this is kind of the most sensible explanation, but I'm also not 100% sure it's actually the one that was intended. Nobody truly brought "Shannon" and "Kanon" as we knew them into existence except Yasu, and this is especially true for Kanon, who seems to have much less of an external stimulus than Shannon (who could be explained as emerging from necessity).

Now on the one hand I suppose you could argue that it's Battler because, had he not left, Shannon and Kanon as the figures they are would have no cause to exist. On the other hand, if Yasu were to truly believe himself/herself "unworthy of love," blaming Battler for that would be both incredibly non-self-reflective and hypocritical of Shannon and Kanon. If you can't be loved, it follows that the first person who couldn't love you is no more responsible than the other two people who supposedly can't.

And if there's no one else to blame, Yasu would have to blame himself/herself for having the "audacity" to try to love as furniture. And Yasu self-blaming is very much in-character, so Yasu-blaming-Yasu makes the most sense of the "Father" interpretation... but I also have a hunch that wasn't Ryukishi's intention, despite working so well.

[Drifloon]

I know what you mean; I'm not sure whether it's what Ryukishi intended either. But at the same time I have a hard time seeing how anything else could fit.

Now on the one hand I suppose you could argue that it's Battler because, had he not left, Shannon and Kanon as the figures they are would have no cause to exist. On the other hand, if Yasu were to truly believe himself/herself "unworthy of love," blaming Battler for that would be both incredibly non-self-reflective and hypocritical of Shannon and Kanon. If you can't be loved, it follows that the first person who couldn't love you is no more responsible than the other two people who supposedly can't.

While this is completely true, it's also extremely clear that Yasu did regard what Battler did as a "sin", so I don't think this is a valid argument for the "father" not being Battler. What bugs me more about that interpretation is the "we should have died right after being born" part. Surely they shouldn't have been born at all if Battler had remembered? But I can't be sure that Ryukishi is thinking the same way on that.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

While this is completely true, it's also extremely clear that Yasu did regard what Battler did as a "sin", so I don't think this is a valid argument for the "father" not being Battler. What bugs me more about that interpretation is the "we should have died right after being born" part. Surely they shouldn't have been born at all if Battler had remembered? But I can't be sure that Ryukishi is thinking the same way on that.

The only thing I can think for this, other than just perhaps a mistranslation, is that they mean "we exist as basically the idea of a future with these people; Yasu should've discarded us as soon as she thought about them, because it's impossible, and by entertaining the idea seriously for any amount of time she's just causing all of us heartbreak."

[Drifloon]

Well, yeah. That's more or less the exact interpretation I was proposing:

Assuming that Shannon and Kanon represent Yasu's love for George and Jessica (as they generally seem to during EP6), it makes sense that they might think that Yasu should have destroyed those feelings within herself before allowing them to go anywhere, thus "dying right after being born". In that case, their father's "sin" is the same sin that's brought up throughout the episode, of trying to achieve love despite being furniture which is unworthy of love.

That later comment about the 'died right after being born' line was regarding the possibility of Battler being the "Father". Obviously I agree that the line makes sense with Yasu as the "Father".

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by fg204

Here's an interesting tidbit from the trial in EP5:
I never noticed until I reread this episode with the recently released tweak patch a few weeks ago that this was the first time that Beato herself openly refers to the "promise" Battler made (presumably 6 years ago) that he forgot. In EP4, she referred to it as a "sin" that Battler committed 6 years ago that he was unable to remember as well, which then seemed to crush her spirits at least as much as this moment. It's also interesting how Beatrice's response at this particular moment seems to imply that she was the direct recipient of Battler's promise, whereas in EP4 she goes out of her way to deny it. It's just so sad that by the time Battler finally remembers everything (in the EP5 tea parties) meta-Beatrice had completely given up and ceased to exist.

In the manga the scene is even more devasting. Beato is completely crushed she looks like she's going insane.
As for why Beato in Ep 4 denied being connected to the promise... well that could have been some sort of word trick as Battler didn't directly made the promise to Beato but... as Beato is Yasu/inherited the love from Yasu at the same time he did.

Another possibility is that MetaBeato is actually something different from PieceBeato. For example, in a game made by MetaBattler PieceBattler might not know who's the culprit but MetaBattler should. So the promise wasnt made to MetaBeato because she's actually a Meta representation of something that exists only in Battler/Toya's mind, but it was made to PieceBeato as she's nothing else but Yasu.

Also: Ryukishi messed up.

Originally Posted by fg204

Also, here's another moment in the EP5 trial that I was wondering what other people's interpretations might have been.

Spoiler:

Gaap:

I was wondering who Beatrice might have been referring to as the "man who believed even though everyone said he was wrong" and "was forced to abandon that belief". In retrospect, my initial thought was that she was referring to "herself" in the past, except as a "man" (having obvious gender identity issues), having her heart broken when Battler forgot his "promise", but now I'm wondering if she might have been referring to someone else like the Battler of Rokkenjima prime, especially if we consider this episode as having been written by Hachijo. Either way, it's definitely an intriguing moment in this episode that lends itself to a variety of interpretations, although it would just be absolutely HILARIOUS if she was actually referring to the bumbling Krauss and his numerous poor investment decisions.

I thought it referred to Battler and to the fact he tried so hard to deny that one of the guys he loved could be the culprit and in the end he was forced to accept there was no 19 person.

Originally Posted by fg204

The problem I have with Kinzo is that Beato here seems to be showing the kind of sympathy she only shows to people she really cares about, and I just can't imagine her having anything other than antipathy toward Kinzo considering all the things he did to her, both directly and indirectly. To be fair, this is PieceBeato we're talking about here (possibly being controlled by the GM Lambda), so who knows what she's referring to.

Speaking of possible antipathy toward Kinzo, here's an interesting little tidbit between Kanon/Shannon just before their duel in EP6.

Spoiler:

Even though it's been shown many times in previous episodes that Kanon/Shannon consider each other as siblings, this is actually the first time they ever speak of a common "Father" from whom they are "born". You can definitely feel their self-hatred (eg. "it would have been better if we had died right after being born") and antipathy (eg. "So he can just die. Let them all die.") seething through in this conversation. Given all of this, who do you think this "Father" is referring to? At first, it sure seemed to suggest that they were talking about Battler considering the way the RevivedBeato initially called him "father" and the way that this "sin" is brought up (reminiscent of EP4). However, in contrast to the other scene talking about the "strength of the man who believed even though everyone said he was wrong", the pure hatred and antipathy shown toward this "Father" here leads me to believe that it must have been referring to Kinzo, since I just can't believe that they have it in them to hate Battler like this.

Overall, it just seems like these magic and/or meta scenes are just full of interesting moments like this after going back and rereading them. What does everyone else think?

I think they refer to... many things actually. Father must be Kinzo, who created the mess of their identity (Yasu's born by an incestuous relation, her mother trapped in a cage by Kinzo escaped and died, Yasu was carelessly handed to Natsuhi who hated him and caused her fall with the assorted gender identity problems and the miserable life that pushed Yasu to create Kanon and Shannon and never forget Kinzo didn't recognize Yasu until short before he died, never giving her a father or the chance to be officially acknowledged as a member of the family).
Letting him die might refer to stopping supporting the mummery in which Kinzo is alive.
If this is a metaphorical representation of what would have happened had Battler never returned and Yasu made a decision 'letting them all die' might mean changing her relations with the others. If she marries George Natsuhi as her master 'dies' and is 'reborn' as the mother of her husband's cousin.
Of course it can also refer to other things, for example to the fact that the tale is about to end, everyone will die but they will meet again in another tale.
However as they're having a fight about who gets to live I'd like to think it's just a metaphor for what had happened in Prime.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

As for the part about their "father", I always wondered whether that was referring to Yasu, given that s/he is the one that created both Shannon and Kanon. Assuming that Shannon and Kanon represent Yasu's love for George and Jessica (as they generally seem to during EP6), it makes sense that they might think that Yasu should have destroyed those feelings within herself before allowing them to go anywhere, thus "dying right after being born". In that case, their father's "sin" is the same sin that's brought up throughout the episode, of trying to achieve love despite being furniture which is unworthy of love.

It's an interesting representation and I like it... though I find weird they would refer to Yasu as father. Even if Yasu was technically a male Yasu always seems to consider herself female and even Beato calls her mother.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Forgery of the Purple Logic's last chapter was scanned some time ago...the culprit was...

Spoiler:

Wish someone would translate it. It seemed like a fun story.

[AuraTwilight]

I knew it. I knew it ever since Kinjo did it as a joke.

[Renall]

The greatest mystery is who stole Erika's eyes.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Forgery of the Purple Logic's last chapter was scanned some time ago...the culprit was...

Spoiler:

Wish someone would translate it. It seemed like a fun story.

If it was in japanese I'd be happy to translate, .

[Dormin]

I like how there are certain persons who were basically never expected to be the culprit. Even though Nanjo as doctor gets suspected of being accomplice, people like he and Gohda are not considered main culprits very often, at least in many theories, and I haven't heard any person playing the game actually suspecting them to be the main culprit. I have seen pictures of Nanjo wearing Beatrice's dress and the image kind of made me think how he was always treated lightly and even the theories about him killing anyone are mostly considered bad jokes.

On the other hand, persons on the island that don't seemingly have any motive got suspected relatively easily. Maybe the structure of Ryu heavily indicating need for money as a partial motive actually guided the suspicion away from the "obvious" culprits. So in this way, I feel like writing the story in a way that the final revelation about the culprit (at least board) would anticlimactically have been "the murderer was krauss, he totally needed the money" would actually been kind of a successful mindgame.

[Drifloon]

A random thing I felt the need to share - I don't really know much about the Enneagram of Personality, but I happened to stumble upon this and was really struck by how strongly the description resembles Yasu/Beatrice. Does anyone else see what I mean?

EDIT: I find these parts particularly insightful:

While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The “romantics” of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world. If, over time, such validation remains out of reach, Fours begin to build their identity around how unlike everyone else they are.

Fours typically have problems with a negative self-image and chronically low self-esteem. They attempt to compensate for this by cultivating a Fantasy Self—an idealized self-image which is built up primarily in their imaginations.

In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions.

One of the biggest challenges Fours face is learning to let go of feelings from the past; they tend to nurse wounds and hold onto negative feelings about those who have hurt them. Indeed, Fours can become so attached to longing and disappointment that they are unable to recognize the many treasures in their lives.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

A random thing I felt the need to share - I don't really know much about the Enneagram of Personality, but I happened to stumble upon this and was really struck by how strongly the description resembles Yasu/Beatrice. Does anyone else see what I mean?

EDIT: I find these parts particularly insightful:

Well, it's pretty fitting.

[gdmcrjunkie]

Hi, I hope this is the right place for VN questions. I've been rereading Chiru and came across a part in Dawn that confused me. When Kyrie is talking about the hell she was in after Asumu stole Rudolf away, she says it lasted 18 years. Why? Shouldn't it be 12, until Asumu died and Rudolf and Kyrie married?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie

Hi, I hope this is the right place for VN questions. I've been rereading Chiru and came across a part in Dawn that confused me. When Kyrie is talking about the hell she was in after Asumu stole Rudolf away, she says it lasted 18 years. Why? Shouldn't it be 12, until Asumu died and Rudolf and Kyrie married?

But Asumu "left something behind" after her death that made Kyrie remember her: Battler... Oh the irony