[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Its pretty clear what RK07 wanted to do with Genji. The "traditional" servant role as explained by Carr. The problem is that he goes around and makes Genji a needed accomplice in just about every story. I guess his justification for that would be that he's a robot so he does whatever he's told to do. RK07 just forgot that people like this aren't interesting accomplices or culprits.

The other problem is that him being a robotic accomplice is never explained. Okay, so he owes Kinzo his life, more or less. We could've guessed as much. But why would that loyalty transfer (1) to Kinzo's heir, to whom Genji owes no particular debt beyond perhaps helping to raise them, and (2) why would it extend to things as unsavory as helping someone commit murder? Assuming Genji even knows about it - which, I'd hope he does not, but I can't say for sure based on Our Confessions and the like - to actually agree with the plan requires a hell of a lot more motive than we're getting.

Genji's 50 year gap is like Yasu's 2 year gap in terms of establishing motive. Yeah, perhaps they could have become people who are cool with murder in all that time, but I didn't actually see it, so I have no reason to believe they are.

This is much easier, of course, if neither of them ever planned to murder anyone, as it deftly makes both Yasu and Genji's motives irrelevant (since they had none).

Originally Posted by Misuzu

Kanon honestly felt like a waste of a character at the end, even though I loved the "zero in your roulette wheel" scene.

When I try to look it up, I see that the age to work in Japan is 15, but I don't know if that was true in the 80's. I also think it's possible that the Ushiromiyas could've found a way around it, seeing as they were wealthy and influential. Since it was done through the orphanage, they could've treated it like an education program or something? It's hard to theorize much without a better understanding of laws at that time.

I'm not even 100% sure Fukuin isn't a female-only orphanage. If it is, you'd think somebody would've said something about it though.

But yeah, I agree with the sentiment. Kanon was wasted (but still more interesting than a lot of of the younger cast, including and especially Shannon and Jessica), and the kids aren't anywhere near as interesting as the parents. The difference between the parents and the servants is the parents got some real development. I wanted a lot more about Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa. A whole hell of a lot more.

[Oroboro]

Genji comes from a long family line of legendary butlers! He even has a cousin named Alfred! His years being a rapscallion in Taiwan were just him trying to find his true calling in life, and live up to his genetic destiny!

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Toku

According to his confession in EP6, George really was attracted to Shannon when he was 17.

In his defense, Shannon was actually 13 at the time, not 10.

Not that age makes any difference in this case, outside of social standards. Shannon's body was incapable of love back then as well. Therefore, it would have been a platonic relationship regardless.

Are you allowed to have a platonic relationship with someone 4 years younger than you? Uhh... I see absolutely no reason why not.

George doesn't know any of this, though, so from his perspective it was a sexual and romantic attraction to a 10 year old.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Toku

According to his confession in EP6, George really was attracted to Shannon when he was 17.

Okay, I checked so:

In EP 6 George said about Shannon:

"I just assumed that you liked me, and even had some childish fantasy that we might end up dating. I one-sidedly felt as though my girlfriend had been stolen from me and let myself feel hurt."

so he might have noticed her already... however he also said:

"Back then, my conceit was at its peak. ......So, when everyone gathered at the family conference, I believed that I was the most attractive, and that all the servant girls who played with us loved having me there. .........On that day, I finally realized how pathetic I was."

So he thought to be the centre of each girl's attention.

From the way I see it, it's possible he was having fantasies on each of those girls, though none of them was that serious. However once he noticed the way Shannon looked at Battler and solely at him not only he realized that wasn't the case but he also figured out how he wanted to be looked.

George didn't try immediately to get Shannon's attention but at first he merely tried to change himself by copying Battler until he said he realized his own cowardice and decided to overcome that flaw.

"It was miserable... I wish I could forget that time for the rest of my life. In any event, I quickly realized that I would never gain any true charm by imitating them like that."
The reason I had no charm was because of my cowardice. ......Under the pretense of respecting people and acting to fit in with the general atmosphere, ......I was always running away.
I resolved myself to overcome that flaw and be reborn.
......I finally understood the shell I was in, and I swore to break out of it.
Every time my resilience began to waver, ......I would remember that day. ......That day I saw you two forget about me entirely and play around happily. And the fact that those eyes of yours, which I always assumed were attracted to me, never noticed me at all.
.........I made an oath. This time, I would really make you take notice of me, and I would be reflected in your eyes. ......Actually, that's the first thing I felt when I fell in love with you.

".........Sounds pretty...complicated."

"On that day, my desire for revenge against the two of you who ignored me and played together, ......no, against you alone...suddenly transformed into true love. ......However, I swear this to God. Even though that was the reason I first started to take you seriously, ......there are no lies in the way I feel about you now. ......I swear to love you for all my life. I will not lie about that for anyone or anything. And I am prepared to take you as my wife, even if it means having the entire world as my enemy."

"......George...san......"

"That is the confession I wanted to make to you beforehand. ......Before now, I've called you my first love, love at first sight. ......That was a lie. ...It was only my selfish, twisted-"

So I think his true feelings for Shannon had birth later, when he realized all that.

By then Shannon might have been older. At least that's how I read that scene. I might be wrong thought.

Originally Posted by Toku

In his defense, Shannon was actually 13 at the time, not 10.

Not that age makes any difference in this case, outside of social standards. Shannon's body was incapable of love back then as well. Therefore, it would have been a platonic relationship regardless.

Are you allowed to have a platonic relationship with someone 4 years younger than you? Uhh... I see absolutely no reason why not.

The problem is George doesn't know all this. As far as he knew Shannon was 10 and therefore way too young to be his partner.

Of course if in the beginning his feelings were merely 'everyone must like me, you too' and he was irritated when this wasn't true and developed later in 'I want you and only you to be my girfriend' Shannon might have been slightly older.

Though I personally think George chose Shannon out of poor motivations.
He was jealous of her relation with Battler and she was an easy target as she was a maid and therefore was supposed to be polite with him and was also pretty young and unexperienced.


While his feelings might have grown into true love later... well I don't really like his motivations for courting her, especially when it's said he knew Battler liked her as well.
It might be just me thought.

Originally Posted by Renall

The other problem is that him being a robotic accomplice is never explained.

Well, it's possible to assume he was loyal to Kinzo due to thankfullness, friendship and sense of duty, while it's possible he was loyal to Yasuda due to pity, guilt, regret and maybe a certain fondness (he didn't protect her mother, he sent her in an orphanage and then had her becoming a servant, hiding from her the truth about her family while he couldn't be sure Kinzo would do the same mistake).

Genji really seems the model servant.

Though I agree, it's never clearly stated what was going into Genji's head.
Personally I think that for being a work that talks so much about figuring out the motive Umineko seriously lack in describing the feelings of certain characters asking us to merely assume them.

For example, prior to 'Our confession' all we knew about Yasuda's feelings for the servants was she was fond of them. It was possible to assume this had changed once she had discovered the truth but... well it wasn't clearly stated.

If I'm left to assume things I might say that... Genji was so disgusted by Kinzo's relation with Beato II he wanted him and all his relatives dead so he agreed with Yasuda's plan wholeheartedly.

Which is probably not the motive behind his actions but can fit as he disapproved what Kinzo did to Beato and probably didn't like how Krauss was handling things.

Originally Posted by Renall

I wanted a lot more about Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa. A whole hell of a lot more.

I think one of the weak sides of Umineko is the huge cast with the big amount of things that are left unexplained.
True, they could be meaningless for the plot in the end, but exactly because they aren't explained, not only I can't dismiss them but I might mistakenly use them in making a theory.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

This is much easier, of course, if neither of them ever planned to murder anyone, as it deftly makes both Yasu and Genji's motives irrelevant (since they had none).

Yeah, I'm thinking that's probably the solution at the moment. Yasu was just writing a story based on her favourite mystery novel and thought that throwing it into the sea in message bottles would be cool and mysterious. The fact that a completely accidental bomb blast blew up the family conference in the same year was a coincidence, but if there's one thing Higurashi taught us it's that Ryukishi's fine with having a plot driven by coincidence.

[Wanderer]

I don't think the fictions even have a motive for Yasu, because there is no Yasu in the fictions (only Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon). The real questions are: Why did Yasu write the original two fictions at all? Why did she distribute them the way she did? And what can this tell us about Prime?

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

When I try to look it up, I see that the age to work in Japan is 15, but I don't know if that was true in the 80's. I also think it's possible that the Ushiromiyas could've found a way around it, seeing as they were wealthy and influential. Since it was done through the orphanage, they could've treated it like an education program or something? It's hard to theorize much without a better understanding of laws at that time.

Both the Shkannon relationships felt pretty flat to me, but Ryukishi wrote some Eva/Hideyoshi and Natsuhi/Krauss moments that I thought were absolutely terrific. I wish we'd gotten more of it and a lot less of the younger characters, even though I thought Jessica was kind of underdeveloped when all was said and done.

I absolutely loved those tiny bits of Eva/Hideyoshi in EP3, or that short moment when Krauss asked after his wife's headache in EP5. Those bits won over lengthy description of Shkanon's love in EP2 and EP6.

The problem with Jessica, is that even though she gots a lot of screentimes, they're more or less depicted her in very similar light. She's static, from beginning through the end, even more than Geogre. And it isn't that she has no potential. She was at least Yasu's friends since childhood, the girl should know more than that.

About the servant problem..well, it is not just the law (even though it is also makes me wondering), but how useful could a 10-12 years old servant could be?

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Though I personally think George chose Shannon out of poor motivations.
He was jealous of her relation with Battler and she was an easy target as she was a maid and therefore was supposed to be polite with him and was also pretty young and unexperienced.

I think it's also one aspect that makes Shanon-Geogre relationship creepy, or unhealthy. He more or less looked for somebody who would obey him all along...Well, Shanon is also all smilling and shining. It is funny if all the time we feel their relationship "flat", it is implied to be "not so true" in the beginning.

Comes to think of it...They went to see the aquarium without no thing happened...But Geogre is so much of a gentleman that he never hugs her? Never sat close to her? He never discovers that her boobs are/might be fake? Or is that man just that inexperience with woman?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

About the servant problem..well, it is not just the law (even though it is also makes me wondering), but how useful could a 10-12 years old servant could be?

It does make you wonder how idiotic the family would have to be to not notice the suspicious nature of such a thing.

"Hmmm, Genji's brought in a ten-year-old servant girl. Well, I'm sure he has a perfectly good reason for this and it has no suspicious ulterior motives like this person being a secret bastard child of the family or something, no sir. Maybe we'll ask this ten year old girl to make the beds and serve tea and it won't feel the least bit exploitative and creepy."

Unless Fukuin servants regularly come in at that age, in which case you question Kinzo's motives.

[AuraTwilight]

Comes to think of it...They went to see the aquarium without no thing happened...But Geogre is so much of a gentleman that he never hugs her? Never sat close to her? He never discovers that her boobs are/might be fake? Or is that man just that inexperience with woman?

I don't know how they do things in your country, but in Japan, you generally don't touch your date beyond handholding or kissing, ever, when in public. Hugs generally aren't socially acceptable except between family members.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

Unless Fukuin servants regularly come in at that age, in which case you question Kinzo's motives.

I think they do; the other servant girls all seemed very young too.

And I don't think there's so much wrong with it. Even if you disagree with how he went about it, at least Kinzo himself probably thought he was doing these kids a service; these are orphans we're talking about.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I think it's also one aspect that makes Shanon-Geogre relationship creepy, or unhealthy. He more or less looked for somebody who would obey him all along...

Exactly. In a fashion I understand he mistakenly might have thought that Shannon and servant-Shannon were one and the same so Shannon actually liked to do what she was doing due to her job and would have done it even if she wasn't paid... when he was young.

Though 6 year before he was already 6 and should have known that people on work are often forced to put up a mask... and for example Shannon should have smiled to Natsuhi, Eva or Rosa even if she couldn't stand them and couldn't tell him something rude without risking his workplace.

Apart from Shannon insisting on the magic matter we never see the two discussing about something. The fact she's so compliant... well, contrast sharply with all the love stories of the adults.

Males and females had their bad points and their disagreements which causes the moments in which they are close to stand out beautifully.

With George and Shannon there's no such thing.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Well, Shanon is also all smilling and shining. It is funny if all the time we feel their relationship "flat", it is implied to be "not so true" in the beginning.

I don't know if it was done on purpose but when I saw their love scene in EP 6 when George confesses his past of jealousy in the manga it somehow felt totally flat from Shannon's part at least.
Maybe it's the author's fault but somehow Shannon seemed to lack of the proper emotive reaction.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Comes to think of it...They went to see the aquarium without no thing happened...But Geogre is so much of a gentleman that he never hugs her? Never sat close to her? He never discovers that her boobs are/might be fake? Or is that man just that inexperience with woman?

According to Shannon he hugged her... and she refused to say Jessica if he had also kissed her.

Originally Posted by Renall

It does make you wonder how idiotic the family would have to be to not notice the suspicious nature of such a thing.

"Hmmm, Genji's brought in a ten-year-old servant girl. Well, I'm sure he has a perfectly good reason for this and it has no suspicious ulterior motives like this person being a secret bastard child of the family or something, no sir. Maybe we'll ask this ten year old girl to make the beds and serve tea and it won't feel the least bit exploitative and creepy."

Unless Fukuin servants regularly come in at that age, in which case you question Kinzo's motives.

Well, Natsuhi and Krauss found it weird and tried to question people about it, like the Fukuin director but the guy told them to ask Genji, Genji told them to ask Kinzo and the weird thing is that Kinzo didn't find it weird at all so either he knew/hoped Shannon was Lion and that was why Genji hired her or... well, I don't know.

I've always found pretty weird how Kinzo said nothing about it when Natsuhi and Krauss pointed it out.

Though Natsuhi and Krauss assumed Yasuda had been hired to keep company to Jessica so, although displeased Kinzo didn't ask for their opinion, they accepted the thing.

Kinzo might have been told by Genji something else though, for example that Genji was Shannon's secret father. Considering he too had an illegittimate child he might have understood.

Still I think this is one of the weakest plot points in Umineko.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I don't know if it was done on purpose but when I saw their love scene in EP 6 when George confesses his past of jealousy in the manga it somehow felt totally flat from Shannon's part at least..

Yes, Geogre and Shanon's love scene was always like this. AT LEAST, Kanon is implied to have his own motive, even though it mostly revolved around his furniture complex. All their conversation seemed to me like Geogre saying whatever the hell he wants, and Shanon just goes along with a smile.

Before ep 7 I will put it as bad writing, but after ep 7 I think it might be intentional all along, to show how fake the relationship is when Yasu refuses to show her own feeling and just act according to what people expects from her.

I remembered somebody in this discussion already said one of my fav remark: "She wants to be loved, but the the tragedy is, she refused to let anybody know her true self."

I believe it is intentional, as Ryukishi could and did write convincing relationship, e.g, the adult. (It's funny how Jessica claimed that Kyrie's feeling is not love...considering she is just a teenager with quite a shallow teenager crush...)

Still I think this is one of the weakest plot points in Umineko.

The whole existence of Yasu is the weakest point in Umineko I think...

In theme of thematic, it's still fine I guess, but if you really think about it logically, nothing actually makes sense.

I don't know how they do things in your country, but in Japan, you generally don't touch your date beyond handholding or kissing, ever, when in public. Hugs generally aren't socially acceptable except between family members.

I guess I will re-read EP2 to clarify it, thanks for your point. I just feel weird if you go out with her for so long and never discovers...In the manga or anime, her boobs clearly touches Geogre's body for a few times...

But maybe it's just for fanservice.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Yes, Geogre and Shanon's love scene was always like this. AT LEAST, Kanon is implied to have his own motive, even though it mostly revolved around his furniture complex. All their conversation seemed to me like Geogre saying whatever the hell he wants, and Shanon just goes along with a smile.

Exactly. Shannon just seemed to say what was expected of her.
In one of the last Higurashi's episodes one of the girls tries basically doing everything she could to please her loved one instead than herself, so maybe after her first love went bad she might have tried to become like this in order to make things work. ChickBeato is also pretty compliant, though she also does things on her own... all considered ChickBeato seems more active than Shannon in her love story, even if her goal is to please Battler.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I remembered somebody in this discussion already said one of my fav remark: "She wants to be loved, but the the tragedy is, she refused to let anybody know her true self."

Yes, it fits Shannon pretty well.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

The whole existence of Yasu is the weakest point in Umineko I think...

If I've to be honest I think the 3 Beatos are Umineko's weakest points.
Starting from 'oh, the Italians thought to hide so much gold in Japan' and moving to 'KuwadorianBeato doesn't seem to be aware she had a baby' to go with the whole amount of crazy things that are connected with Yasuda and that don't really make sense in real life or seem highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I guess I will re-read EP2 to clarify it, thanks for your point. I just feel weird if you go out with her for so long and never discovers...In the manga or anime, her boobs clearly touches Geogre's body for a few times...

But maybe it's just for fanservice.

George is no breast somelier though. He might not know the difference between real and fake. Or maybe he figured Shannon might wear a padded bra but not how much padding there's in that bra.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think they do; the other servant girls all seemed very young too.

And I don't think there's so much wrong with it. Even if you disagree with how he went about it, at least Kinzo himself probably thought he was doing these kids a service; these are orphans we're talking about.

What I mean is, ten year old kids are not very useful as domestic servants. It's also, well, creepy. Not in a sexual way, but in an exploitative child labor way. "Having kids work to get work experience and earn a job recommendation" is something you expect of teenagers who will, in 2-4 years, be emancipated legally and going off into the world to work. It's not really something you expect out of people who will just be entering high school at that time.

Basically, Shannon and Kanon's stated ages in the stories make more sense as the age you'd expect people to start working there, not when they're 6-10 years old.

[UsagiTenpura]

The story does mention that the other servants thought Yasu (10 years old) was useless and that Krauss/Natsuhi thought her main role was to be Jessica's friend.
Even if they had doubts about her being a secret child or something, (... especially Natsuhi...) not much would come out of it because of everything that gets shoved under "wouldn't put it past Kinzo".

So the one question is how Genji managed to convince Kinzo.
Considering that arc 2 (I think it was?) had a scene showing Kinzo acting very kindly to Kanon and telling him he also needs to try to solve the epitaph or else the magic won't be complete, it seems likely to me he knew all along.

Changing the age thing and the overall secretiveness of the whole thing was probably more related to Natsuhi then to Kinzo.


But here's another idea : Yasu is not Lion, but a servant raised to be the next Beatrice/heir eventually (isn't there like thousands of references to the epitaph not having to be solved by someone of the Ushiromiya blood? cause Lion's an Ushiromiya).
Yasu's age is really 16, she's a 16 years old girl. Eventually Kinzo/Genji told her the story about Lion's fate in order to make it more easy for her to accept her intended role as a new Beatrice/heir. With that came Kanon, Yasu's attempt at being "Lion".
Could also say that Kanon might not be real, but through the stories portrays the inner dilemma that Yasu has toward the female servant vs male heir roles thing.

Oh and the fake breast thing was George's idea (why not? so much is blamed on him already anyway).

[Renall]

Well, I've always teased the notion myself that Yasu has no evidence that she is, in fact, the person she's been told that she is. She can't know it; there is no evidence before her which proves it independent of the claims of others like Genji and Nanjo. While you'd argue that they have no reason to lie to her, on the other hand we have no idea why they have any reason to tell the truth either, or when they would tell her, or why.

So really, how can we know that Yasu and Lion are one and the same person? How do we know there ever actually was a Lion? What if Rosa's story about Beatrice actually contradicts the notion that she could have had a child of that age?

But in essence, it doesn't matter, as long as it's what Yasu actually believes is true. And if Kinzo believes it, if that was Genji's intention in creating such a deception. If he has any other motive, we don't know what it possibly could have been.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, I've always teased the notion myself that Yasu has no evidence that she is, in fact, the person she's been told that she is. She can't know it; there is no evidence before her which proves it independent of the claims of others like Genji and Nanjo. While you'd argue that they have no reason to lie to her, on the other hand we have no idea why they have any reason to tell the truth either, or when they would tell her, or why.

So really, how can we know that Yasu and Lion are one and the same person? How do we know there ever actually was a Lion? What if Rosa's story about Beatrice actually contradicts the notion that she could have had a child of that age?

But in essence, it doesn't matter, as long as it's what Yasu actually believes is true. And if Kinzo believes it, if that was Genji's intention in creating such a deception. If he has any other motive, we don't know what it possibly could have been.

I also sometimes think it could be that way, Genji could just want to give Kinzo some relief.

But still isn't it cheaper to hire a kid and told her to wear the dress and goes along with his lies for a few moment than messing around with her whole life? And it would be more morally acceptable?

It also didn't explain Genji's overal loyalty to Yasu.

How about the scene that Bern pulled out of Clair's guts? Basically I guess somebody (Genji or Nanjo) has told her that he/she lost some of his sexual attributes due to the fall. It would be very bad for her if they're lying.

I like the ideas myself, though.



Comes to think of it...I remember Rosa's testimony also described second Beatrice as blonde.
If she's Kinzo's child, she could not possibly has golden hair.
So...the first Beatrice is pregnant with somebody not Kinzo. Probably not a Japanese too.
That makes the second Beatrice around 22 years old.

[LyricalAura]

I've been kicking around a forgery idea partially based around this.

Genji was the one got Beatrice-2 pregnant, but he managed to hide that fact for years by convincing Kinzo that he'd done it in an alcohol-induced fugue. His continued loyalty to Kinzo and Yasu is a result of the crushing guilt he feels about how much pain he's caused both of them.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, I've always teased the notion myself that Yasu has no evidence that she is, in fact, the person she's been told that she is. She can't know it; there is no evidence before her which proves it independent of the claims of others like Genji and Nanjo. While you'd argue that they have no reason to lie to her, on the other hand we have no idea why they have any reason to tell the truth either, or when they would tell her, or why.

So really, how can we know that Yasu and Lion are one and the same person? How do we know there ever actually was a Lion? What if Rosa's story about Beatrice actually contradicts the notion that she could have had a child of that age?

But in essence, it doesn't matter, as long as it's what Yasu actually believes is true. And if Kinzo believes it, if that was Genji's intention in creating such a deception. If he has any other motive, we don't know what it possibly could have been.

I've been toying with the idea Yasuda might not be Lion as well. The whole thing might have been her own fantasy, born by her wish to have a family and be accepted and by the disliking she might have felt for Natsuhi.

She, well, Shannon, tells her she's 'special'. While it can work as a way to cheer her up it can also be the wish to be more than what she's supposed to be which is completely understandable considering her condition.

So due to her love for mystery books and the environment in which she lives this girl that, when she was 6 was carried on Rokkenjima merely to play with Jessica but was rejected by Natsuhi, made up such a story.

Meanwhile Kinzo is about to die and wishes to apologize to Beatrice so Genji had Yasuda pose as Beato to merely let Kinzo die in peace.

However in her mind this takes a completely different twist so she sees it as a confirmation she's Lion.

This however generates two possibilities: either this was a fantasy of piece-Yasuda who's also capable of murdering people due to Battler not remembering a promise or Prime-Yasuda was severely disconnected from reality.

Though I fear that's another of those mysteries we weren't supposed to wonder about... -_-
*sigh* Sometimes I think that, if I can't have all the answer I would at least have all the questions at which I was supposed to find an answer...

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Comes to think of it...I remember Rosa's testimony also described second Beatrice as blonde.
If she's Kinzo's child, she could not possibly has golden hair.
So...the first Beatrice is pregnant with somebody not Kinzo. Probably not a Japanese too.
That makes the second Beatrice around 22 years old.

Unless Kinzo wanted her to dyie her hair. He already gave Beato her mother's name and he's trying to force her into becoming the first BEato. What would stop him from pretending she dyed her hair blonde?

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Renall

"Hmmm, Genji's brought in a ten-year-old servant girl. Well, I'm sure he has a perfectly good reason for this and it has no suspicious ulterior motives like this person being a secret bastard child of the family or something, no sir. Maybe we'll ask this ten year old girl to make the beds and serve tea and it won't feel the least bit exploitative and creepy."

Unless Fukuin servants regularly come in at that age, in which case you question Kinzo's motives.

"Krauss, Genji's brought in a SIX year old servant girl."
"Well, that's halfway to being an EVA pilot. Might as well suit her up."

Also, I'm almost certain we're told that the Fukuin servants come in as teenagers after having both an exceptional behavioral and academic record. Most of the girls work for one or two years, wherein we're told they're actually paid an absurd amount of money (part of why it's such a big thing in the orphanage to be chosen, I guess), and then leave to start their adult lives with a decent bank account and a nice letter of recommendation from a prominent family.

Spoiler for Space:

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I absolutely loved those tiny bits of Eva/Hideyoshi in EP3, or that short moment when Krauss asked after his wife's headache in EP5. Those bits won over lengthy description of Shkanon's love in EP2 and EP6.

The problem with Jessica, is that even though she gots a lot of screentimes, they're more or less depicted her in very similar light. She's static, from beginning through the end, even more than Geogre. And it isn't that she has no potential. She was at least Yasu's friends since childhood, the girl should know more than that.

I think it's also one aspect that makes Shanon-Geogre relationship creepy, or unhealthy. He more or less looked for somebody who would obey him all along...Well, Shanon is also all smilling and shining. It is funny if all the time we feel their relationship "flat", it is implied to be "not so true" in the beginning.

Comes to think of it...They went to see the aquarium without no thing happened...But Geogre is so much of a gentleman that he never hugs her? Never sat close to her? He never discovers that her boobs are/might be fake? Or is that man just that inexperience with woman?

1. I agree - the adult relationships were often much more tender.

2. Also agree - part of the problem I have with Jessica / George is that they're never allowed to engage in anything OTHER than their respective romances. Jessica, for example, has shown more than once that she's willing to argue with Eva as an equal, she has an interesting love/disdain sisterly relationship with Maria, and despite claiming to not respect her parents, she actually seems more proud of them than not. AND YET, I'M PRETTY SURE KRAUSS AND JESSICA ONLY SHARE, MAYBE, THREE CONVERSATIONS OVER THE COURSE OF THE SERIES.

3. Well, we do have R07 saying in a rather early interview that George and Shannon's love was both genuine and mutual, or something like that. Of course, coming from him, take that as you will.

4. It's not so odd - of all the Shkanon silliness, one thing I will believe without question is that noone noticed Shannon's fake boobs. And then the anime had to go and give her those GIANT, HEAVING, ROCKIN' KNOCKERS. O_o

Originally Posted by Wanderer

And I don't think there's so much wrong with it. Even if you disagree with how he went about it, at least Kinzo himself probably thought he was doing these kids a service; these are orphans we're talking about.

Yeah.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Comes to think of it...I remember Rosa's testimony also described second Beatrice as blonde.
If she's Kinzo's child, she could not possibly has golden hair.
So...the first Beatrice is pregnant with somebody not Kinzo. Probably not a Japanese too.

Not necessarily. Yes, asians generally have dark hair, but sometimes genetics, to be frank, will do what-the-hell-ever they want to, and give you some weird things. If Beato-2 came to resemble her mother far more despite also being Kinzo's child, it really would only strengthen his notion that she was Nazitrice reborn.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Genji was the one got Beatrice-2 pregnant, but he managed to hide that fact for years by convincing Kinzo that he'd done it in an alcohol-induced fugue. His continued loyalty to Kinzo and Yasu is a result of the crushing guilt he feels about how much pain he's caused both of them.

Oh god, make it, MAKE IT NOW.