[Manga] Chapter 515 Discussion

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Wasn't offscreen. A whole chapter was dedicated to it.

What amuses me most is that you say that with a straight face. So basically the whole idea of the entire village gradually accepting and admiring Naruto can be crammed into one chapter. Huzzah.

And then you don't claim to be bigoted.

Hey, if Kishi and Naruto aren't expected to remember a little thing like a love confession, why should I?

Information gathering has been a ninja precept from the start.

So has been fighting and defeating enemies.

Establishing it as inconsequential is the last thing on the author's mind.

lulz. I'm sorry, I really can't do anything else but laugh at that.

[Rurik]

First off you should try to tone down your flaming a little bit.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

-
One Piece uses what I like to call "exaggerated physics." Oda takes certain laws of physics from the real world and, with some creative liberties, applies them to the fantasy world of One Piece. Though the Clima Tact would never work in real life, it does establish basis for how it works, which is somewhat familiar to our own universe.

You should take a deep breath and read again my 2 posts, I’m not saying that neither Manga are applying things than work in real life, I said that they use real life science to explain what is going on, the poster which I quoted was just saying that Naruto does this, whereas OP doesn’t.

That is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. When your tank is running on empty it doesn't just magically fill up with gas just because you want it to. A ninja using a high-level jutsu when they're low on chakra makes no sense and is a total contradiction to the rules.

Why use insults?

Either way, no is not a dumb thing, you don’t have a Bar of energy in a corner of the screen that tells you how much energy the character has left or what he can do with that so called energy Tank for that matter. So you can’t be on what exactly a character can pull off.

[Jehuty]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

flamebait

I'm with Frenchie and Rurik on this dude, settle the eff down. It says on your profile you're 22, right? You can prove your points without resorting to insults.

Proving Naruto as reliable is one thing. Putting the fate of the village in his hands is another. And it would be one thing if he was their last hope, but there were many other able-bodied fighters that Kishi decided were just too weak to handle it. Oh yeah, and letting Naruto handle partially just to spite the elders. Yeah, real mature Tsunade.

Naruto WAS their last hope. The other able-bodied fighters couldn't beat Pain, they tried. Chouji and his dad got owned, had it not been for Kakashi. The Hyuuga didn't stand a chance against Pein's Shinra Tensei, Ino and her dad could never hope to match Pein's mind techniques.

Everyone was having a hard enough time with just one path.

Naruto had both, the Kyuubi and Sannin mode to overcome Pein in sheer strenght alone. Look at what happened to the chakra absorbing path, it got turned into a frog.

Oh, and this brings up another point that Naruto had suddenly become totally adored by the entire village offscreen. So yeah, everything he ever hoped for just sorta happened...offscreen.

He was too busy defending the village / avenging Jiraiya. Everyone was being brought back to life, and you can bet all the shinobi that know about it, especially the ones that also want Naruto to be acknowledged, were telling the villager who their savior was. So much of a savior in fact, that somehow he managed to convince the bad guy to bring everyone back to life.

Also, Pain destroying the village was random and unnecessary, especially since, Hey! We were able to rebuild it all overnight without any death or long-term ramifications!

Pein, well.. Nagato, had more than enough reason to destroy the village. The ninja that killed his parents were from Konoha, the ones responsible for Yahiko's death were from Konoha (and admittedly, rain village, but Hanzo paid for it later on), the ones responsible for some of Akatsuki member's deaths were from Konoha.

If I had gone through all that crap and I had the power to, I probably would destroy the village for shits and giggles too.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Either way, no is not a dumb thing, you don’t have a Bar of energy in a corner of the screen that tells you how much energy the character has left or what he can do with that so called energy Tank for that matter. So you can’t be on what exactly a character can pull off.

Chakra works almost exactly like an energy bar. When entering a battle, a "ninja" has a finite amount of chakra, which decreases as they use jutsus. When they're running on low they shouldn't be able to just magically manifest a bunch of chakra for one final major attack.

Originally Posted by Jehuty

Naruto WAS their last hope. The other able-bodied fighters couldn't beat Pain, they tried. Chouji and his dad got owned, had it not been for Kakashi. The Hyuuga didn't stand a chance against Pein's Shinra Tensei, Ino and her dad could never hope to match Pein's mind techniques.

Everyone was having a hard enough time with just one path.

Because Kishi made it that way. Kishi made it so they were too weak to handle Pain. He could just as well have made a bunch of the Konoha rookies capable of taking down five of the Pains, but instead he had Naruto swoop in to save the day.

Naruto had both, the Kyuubi and Sannin mode to overcome Pein in sheer strenght alone. Look at what happened to the chakra absorbing path, it got turned into a frog.

Uh, yeah. Thanks.

He was too busy defending the village / avenging Jiraiya. Everyone was being brought back to life, and you can bet all the shinobi that know about it, especially the ones that also want Naruto to be acknowledged, were telling the villager who their savior was.

I'm talking about a slow gradual process of everyone in the village coming to like Naruto over a span of many story arcs. Not just, all the random fodder characters suddenly love him all in the span of one chapter.

So much of a savior in fact, that somehow he managed to convince the bad guy to bring everyone back to life.

That whole segment was asinine.

Pein, well.. Nagato, had more than enough reason to destroy the village. The ninja that killed his parents were from Konoha, the ones responsible for Yahiko's death were from Konoha (and admittedly, rain village, but Hanzo paid for it later on), the ones responsible for some of Akatsuki member's deaths were from Konoha.

If I had gone through all that crap and I had the power to, I probably would destroy the village for shits and giggles too.

Yeah, but he didn't have to. My original point was that Pain destroying the village was not a good excuse for the side characters to not do stuff, since it didn't need to happen in the first place and was a dumb choice by Kishi.

For a while, Pain was content with just invading and sabotaging the village the old-fashioned way, during which several of the Konoha rookies could've taken down 4 or 5 of his bodies. And as I said before, the destruction of the village had no long-term ramifications anyway.

[Jehuty]

[QUOTE=Nobodyman9;3338677]Because Kishi made it that way. Kishi made it so they were too weak to handle Pain. He could just as well have made a bunch of the Konoha rookies capable of taking down five of the Pains, but instead he had Naruto swoop in to save the day.[quote]

The bodies were all too far apart for the Konoha nins to realize what was going on and how they could go about defeating the paths. The Asura path -was- destroyed, at the cost of Kakashi's life. Konohamaru got a lucky strike against the Naraka path, but I also think it's the path with the least fighting capabilities (only used for instakill once it's got you, or to resurrect the other paths).

Team Guy was out too, though it would've been interesting to see what they would have done considering that's 3 heavy-hitters in the team.

Uh, yeah. Thanks.

My point with that was that had Naruto not had Sannin mode, he would've been defeated and that would've been it for the fight. It took everything, all of his powerups, to take Pein down. Even his summons -- Gamabunta for crying out loud -- couldn't do very much.

I'm talking about a slow gradual process of everyone in the village coming to like Naruto over a span of many story arcs. Not just, all the random fodder characters suddenly love him all in the span of one chapter.

I'll give you that. I thought it was crap, too. I would've liked to see more of that development.

That whole segment was asinine.

To be fair, if I didn't have much interaction with a person before, even didn't like him... and then it turns out that he was the reason a family member or friend's life was saved? It would completely change my view and attitude towards that person. I'd be eternally greatful - but I do see where you're coming from.

Yeah, but he didn't have to. My original point was that Pain destroying the village was not a good excuse for the side characters to not do stuff, since it didn't need to happen in the first place and was a dumb choice by Kishi.

For a while, Pain was content with just invading and sabotaging the village the old-fashioned way, during which several of the Konoha rookies could've taken down 4 or 5 of his bodies. And as I said before, the destruction of the village had no long-term ramifications anyway.

Of course he didn't have to. Even Konan told Pein he didn't have to. But that was used for 2 reasons: 1) he did it because he could. He wanted revenge, so to hell with it, let's decimate the entire village. 2) it was needed for the plot, for shock value. It was supposed to emphasize how much of a badass Pein was.

[Ashaman]

Also, yeah, not much long term ramifications. Doesn't degrade the fact that there was short term consequences though.

[milan kyuubi]

I'm talking about a slow gradual process of everyone in the village coming to like Naruto over a span of many story arcs. Not just, all the random fodder characters suddenly love him all in the span of one chapter.

I'll give you that. I thought it was crap, too. I would've liked to see more of that development.

Actually It was shown trough Ebisu's flashback.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Chakra works almost exactly like an energy bar. When entering a battle, a "ninja" has a finite amount of chakra, which decreases as they use jutsus. When they're running on low they shouldn't be able to just magically manifest a bunch of chakra for one final major attack..

This is a work of fiction, and You don’t have any basis whatsoever to point out what a character can do on any given situation, as Author himself has not created this limitation you are talking about.

With Edo Tensei, We don’t know about amount of chakra it takes, we don’t know how much Chakra Kabuto has, what we do know is that Kabuto has the sufficient chakra to make Massive Edo tensei.

Been able to do a last attack when someone seems to be out of energy, is nothing new to this Manga, and any other series that uses magical energy for that matter. Like James said, don’t pick and choose. Either way, I have debated too much on the matter, Im out.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Actually It was shown trough Ebisu's flashback.

People in Konoha started to like Naruto since he defeated Hyuga Neeji in the chunin exam arc.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Jehuty

The bodies were all too far apart for the Konoha nins to realize what was going on and how they could go about defeating the paths. The Asura path -was- destroyed, at the cost of Kakashi's life. Konohamaru got a lucky strike against the Naraka path, but I also think it's the path with the least fighting capabilities (only used for instakill once it's got you, or to resurrect the other paths).

I don't see why that's relevant. The Pain bodies are actually weaker when they're alone. All they need to do is focus in defeating the Pain bodies in front of them.

Team Guy was out too, though it would've been interesting to see what they would have done considering that's 3 heavy-hitters in the team.

Rock Lee will fight Zombie Nagato.

Sakura: But you can't fight him! The entire village was fighting and we couldn't him.

Rock Lee: The entire village? Did you forget that I was gone?

My point with that was that had Naruto not had Sannin mode, he would've been defeated and that would've been it for the fight. It took everything, all of his powerups, to take Pein down. Even his summons -- Gamabunta for crying out loud -- couldn't do very much.

This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I'll give you that. I thought it was crap, too. I would've liked to see more of that development.

Now we're making progress.

To be fair, if I didn't have much interaction with a person before, even didn't like him... and then it turns out that he was the reason a family member or friend's life was saved? It would completely change my view and attitude towards that person. I'd be eternally greatful - but I do see where you're coming from.

Fair enough.

Of course he didn't have to. Even Konan told Pein he didn't have to. But that was used for 2 reasons: 1) he did it because he could. He wanted revenge, so to hell with it, let's decimate the entire village. 2) it was needed for the plot, for shock value. It was supposed to emphasize how much of a badass Pein was.

There are other ways to go about doing those things, but this is besides the point. Decimating the village had no long-term effect and it's a weak excuse for explaining why the rest of Konoha couldn't fight.

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Also, yeah, not much long term ramifications. Doesn't degrade the fact that there was short term consequences though.

Yeah, but, you know, you'd think there'd be some long-term result of something like the destruction of the village. And even in the short-term, what did it result in? Naruto being mildly pissed about it? The rest of Konoha not being able to do anything because they suck? Some playful banter from the cloud ninjas?

Originally Posted by Rurik

This is a work of fiction, and You don’t have any basis whatsoever to point out what a character can do on any given situation

Yes I do.

as Author himself has not created this limitation you are talking about.

It was stated from day one that a "ninja" can only use as many jutsus as his/her chakra reserves will allow.

With Edo Tensei, We don’t know about amount of chakra it takes, we don’t know how much Chakra Kabuto has, what we do know is that Kabuto has the sufficient chakra to make Massive Edo tensei.

Because it's convenient for what Kishi wants to write, but I'm done talking about this.

Been able to do a last attack when someone seems to be out of energy, is nothing new to this Manga, and any other series that uses magical energy for that matter. Like James said, don’t pick and choose. Either way, I have debated to much on the matter, Im out

Gathering the rest of your energy for one final attack is one thing, but Deidara vs. Sasuke is whole other level of stupid, even ignoring chakra limitations.

[Ashaman]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Actually It was shown trough Ebisu's flashback.

That's what they are complaining about.

Though there were hints and stuff.

The Chuunin exam for one. It wasn't focused on other than that chapter, but at least that chapter allowed us to see the changing attitudes formed from rumours and stuff.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Yes I do.


It was stated from day one that a "ninja" can only use as many jutsus as his/her chakra reserves will allow.


Because it's convenient for what Kishi wants to write, but I'm done talking about this.


Gathering the rest of your energy for one final attack is one thing, but Deidara vs. Sasuke is whole other level of stupid, even ignoring chakra limitations.

I will reply ignoring that your definition about chakra is lacking to say the least.

-Do you know how many Chakra reserves Kabuto has? NO.

-Do you know how much Chakra reserve Sasuke had? NO.

So yes, You dont have no Basis to say what a character can do in any given situation.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Exactly, Do you know how many Chakra reserves Kabuto has? NO.

No, I don't, but it would be really great if Kishi would stop being so vague.

Do you know how much Chakra reserve Sasuke had? NO.

Sasuke was clearly physically exhausted and Deidara even commented that his chakra was almost completely gone.

So yes, You dont have no Basis to say what a character can do in any given situation.

The problem with your explanation is that, even if it's true, it would drastically reduce the amount of suspense in the story. Since we would have no way of knowing how much strength or energy a person has we would have no sense of their capabilities and whether or not they were in trouble. Sure, maybe it seems like they're completely exhausted, but maybe they still have a fuckton of chakra left and can wipe out the baddy in a single blow.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

No, I don't, but it would be really great if Kishi would stop being so vague.


Sasuke was clearly physically exhausted and Deidara even commented that his chakra was almost completely gone.


The problem with your explanation is that, even if it's true, it would drastically reduce the amount of suspense in the story. Since we would have no way of knowing how much strength or energy a person has we would have no sense of their capabilities and whether or not they were in trouble. Sure, maybe it seems like they're completely exhausted, but maybe they still have a fuckton of chakra left and can wipe out the baddy in a single blow.

That’s specific the point, it has never been stated neither in the Manga or Databooks, the exact amount of chakra someone has in any given moment, that creates an ambiguous setting on what to expect from a character, is it good? I personally not amused on such feats, but this doesn’t mean that is either bad or that the author is contradicting himself, rather this is just how the Manga is.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Rurik

That’s specific the point, it has never been stated neither in the Manga or Databooks, the exact amount of chakra someone has in any given moment, that creates an ambiguous setting on what to expect from a character, is it good? I personally not amused on such feats, but this doesn’t mean that is either bad or that the author is contradicting himself, rather this is just how the Manga is.

I think it's fair to assume that after a character has used a fair number of large chakra-draining techniques, then they're starting to run low (unless you're Madara and you can do whatever you want because you're the big bad). But if there is literally no way of gauging or having a good estimate of the capabilities of the characters then it's just bad storytelling.

[kitten320]

The villagers hate towards Naruto was less and less each time, so duno why you claim it happened in one chapter.

Besides saving EVERYONES ass is a huge thing, you also would reconsider your thoughts if someone had saved you ass or even better brought you back from dead and not in zombie form.

And to top it, NOT EVERYONE loves him right now, just because you saw several villagers admiring him and asking for autograph doesn't mean that everyone do. Danzo still hates him and elders also don't fully except him yet. And the village has hundreds of people, there surely are those who still don't like him.

So don't exegarae things.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I think it's fair to assume that after a character has used a fair number of large chakra-draining techniques, then they're starting to run low (unless you're Madara and you can do whatever you want because you're the big bad). But if there is literally no way of gauging or having a good estimate of the capabilities of the characters then it's just bad storytelling.

Is not bad storytelling, We do know the capacities of most of the character, however we don’t know the limitations on how much they can do inside thier capacities, for example, Shika cant summon gamabunta, but we don't know How many Shadow binding jutsu Shika can do in a day. they will get limitations on what they can do over a course of a fight, but at the end no matter how litle stamina they have left, they will always put one last attack to finish it off.

The reason is simple from a entertainment point of view, the author will not end a fight were the one that looses the fight is because he doesn’t have more chakra to fight, it has never happened in the Manga, and it would be a lackluster if that happens.

Don’t get me wrong, for me Kishi writing is not good compared to other mangas i have read, but in my opinion, how Kishi handles a magical energy he invented is not a reason why he isn’t as good.

[kitten320]

Actually same thing works in reality, maybe not for everyone. But I'm a sportist and I know from my own experience, when you are really tired and barely can move, you still can manage enough strengh and stamina to do last attack or speed up or whatever you are doing. Of course it also depends on personality and their determination, someone might flatly fall on their fac once they get tired.

Don't get me wrong, Naruto has a lot of flows and sometimes this last attack thingy is over done but it isn't completly made up.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

As for how it works, I don't know. So apparently, from what we can gather, you just have to sacrifice a human life and perform a ritual to somehow bring a dead person's soul into an artificial body.

I honestly don't think we need any more information than what we already know about this jutsu. Thus far, Edo Tensei breaks no rules, and creates no plot holes in the story and is actually pretty straight forward as far as forbidden jutsus go.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Where does the energy for this technique come from?

I never really thought it took much energy; but that the ritual itself was the catalyst, similar to real-life Voodoo practices. Afterall, the whole technique is essentially just the caster making a trade with the death god, and a human life is a relatively significant sacrifice in itself with these things, so it might very well be like you suggested, that person's life force may be part of the supporting energy --if it is needed at all.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

All right, compromise time. As far as Edo Tensei is concerned, I still think it's stupid.

I disagree that its "stupid" though, I actually think this is one of the most "fair" and straight forward techniques in the story: a life for a life. It takes preparation and a human sacrifice; yes, I agree Kabuto is obviously using it on a whole other level, however its plausible since he is a very methodical character and this makes no contradictions in the story --he had plenty of time to do this. It's actually pretty realistic(you know what I mean) when you think about it, wouldn't you take it as far as you could if you were in his shoes? I would.

If you're just pissed off because you wanted some fresh characters(which I believe is the real reason for the ranting and calling this simple, and relatively sensible technique "stupid"), well no one can tell you anything about that... I don't mind though because I loved these villains and they're pretty much the reason I'm still reading this manga. Aside from the villains, I can only say I'm interested in Neji, Kakashi and Shikamaru. At least the resurrections wont all be characters we already knew though; not that I mind, I had a blast with Deidara in the other chapter. I still haven't gotten tired of that "mmmm!" yet.

In an earlier post in this thread, you mentioned part I being "relatively fair"(with regards to the distribution of power I believe). Can you elaborate on that, and what your idea of fair is in this manga?

[Hallall]

Well... Naruto is a shounen manga, so you can be pretty sure that Naruto (being the main character) is going to defeat both Madara and Sasuke in some way or another. Kishi is just trying to make Madara and the zombie squad look overpowering right before the grand finale. Naruto's victory is inevitable, but what role Sasuke is going to play remains to be seen He has me convinced that he's going to run the emo lane all the way down though...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

As for how it works, I don't know. So apparently, from what we can gather, you just have to sacrifice a human life and perform a ritual to somehow bring a dead person's soul into an artificial body. One thing that still bugs me about it though:

Where does the energy for this technique come from? Some have speculated that you use the chakra of the human sacrifice. If so, would that really be enough? Could the cumulative chakra from any fodder ninja really be enough to activate the ritual? If not do you make up the difference with your own chakra? Does it require chakra to keep the souls attached for long periods of time?

Well those are good questions and I admit I would like to know more about Edo Tensei. I do find more enjoyable to know the limits and mechanism of a jutsu and then see it in action so it's not like I don't understand what you mean, I just think you were going way overboard about something which afterall is simply buisness as usual.

And while it is hax, very much so, what isn't nowadays? As I said this isn't the realm of Genin and Chuunin anymore, low-life character like Suigetsu and Juugo are powerful Jounin in their own right. People like Kabuto, Madara and soon Naruto and Sasuke and -litteraly- unbelievably powerful as far as the rest of their universe are concerned. At this point of the story if you're not hax then you're pretty much useless.

Are you fucking kidding me? You're saying I shouldn't worry about something just because it happened 150 chapters ago? (which, BTW, isn't really that long ago, relatively speaking). The end of Sasuke vs. Deidara is one of the worse asspull victories in the history of Shonen manga. It doesn't matter if it was one chapter, 150 chapters or 300 chapters ago, it's still another crap stain on this absolutely detestable manga.

I'm very serious. Your rant about Edo Tensei at least I can understand but throwing into a chapter 515 discussion the Sasuke vs. Deidara fight (which was 3 years ago) out of nowhere? That makes no sense at all to me.
I might add that I wonder why you are wasting your time reading a manga -and worse going into a sub-forum dedicated to said manga- which from your own words you find "absolutely detestable". It seems counter-productive to me.

I have acknowledged that the characters of Naruto have been very un-ninja-like in nature for quite some time. What baffles me is your willing acceptance of it.

Why? It's not like things suddenly changed. They have never been very ninja-like. You would have to be insane to start complaining about it 12 years after the fact. It's like being mad about One Pieces characters not being very pirate-like or DB not very martial-artist-like or pretty much every and all Shounen archetypes not being very real-like. I guess we are both baffled about each other.

On another subject the village's acceptance by the villagers didn't happen over one chapter, it started during the Chuunin exam when Naruto received a standing ovation after he defeated Neji about 400 chapters ago and continued to be shown through the change of attitude of the rookies, Ebisu, etc.