Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[neodrag38]

Moon Eclipse didn't put down class alone as a deciding factor.

And I don't remember Lacus being a "mediator" between Orb and Plant at the end of GS. But I guess what you are suggesting that Lacus will simply make the same mistake all over again? Talk about not wanting to do anything until things really hit the fan.

[Demongod86]

Well, Lacus has a position of some political worth now...

[neodrag38]

You know better than anyone else that simply refering to it as "some" is putting it lightly. And know you would be happy with it being alot more than simply "some."

[Demongod86]

The sub said that it was a mediator/foreign relations representative between PLANT and Orb. So she's no empress, no chairperson, no council member, no ruling family member or whatnot...just a go-betweener.

And actually I would be happiest if Lacus went back to the beach house and we didn't hear from her/Kira/Archangel/Eternal/Justice/Cagalli/Athrun again, since they just godmode everything apart. Perhaps if there would be some suspense added by the gundams not being so stupidly powerful. Though if someone were to ever attack Orb, well, here's some NJC spam godmoding madness in your face.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The sub said that it was a mediator/foreign relations representative between PLANT and Orb. So she's no empress, no chairperson, no council member, no ruling family member or whatnot...just a go-betweener.

But for how long? And you aren't fooling anyone. You are still putting it quite lightly on what clearly won't be a simple mediator position. It would be like saying that the US is simply a mediator between two puppet government controlled Latin American nations.

And actually I would be happiest if Lacus went back to the beach house and we didn't hear from her/Kira/Archangel/Eternal/Justice/Cagalli/Athrun again, since they just godmode everything apart. Perhaps if there would be some suspense added by the gundams not being so stupidly powerful. Though if someone were to ever attack Orb, well, here's some NJC spam godmoding madness in your face.

But it's clear that you would still happily watch through another 40 or so eps of Lacus being a goddess with her demi-gods pwning anyone that disagrees with them.

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

In our Destiny-free world, people have to prove their abilities. More or less.

Frankly, as far as ineptitude goes, I'd be more worried about someone who got his job without even asking for it, "because he has the right genes", than about someone who worked to get where he is.

In our Destiny free world where, genetic classification is not up to that level, we have a substitute, it's called degrees. You don't have degree in teaching, you can't teach. You got a degree in teaching? Sure you can teach, if you're the best of all the applicants with the same qualifications (ie. better qualitified for the job). To relate this back to Desinty. If you meet the genetic requirements? Sure you can teach, but only if you've got the best genes for the job.

And at the end of plus. They basically say she's going back to PLANT to become the next chairman(woman). Yet another proof of her superiority as a leader because of her genes (sorry just had to add that one in)

[Demongod86]

Sure I'll happily watch another 40 eps of that...I'm not a tough guy to please.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse

In our Destiny free world where, genetic classification is not up to that level, we have a substitute, it's called degrees. You don't have degree in teaching, you can't teach. You got a degree in teaching? Sure you can teach, if you're the best of all the applicants with the same qualifications (ie. better qualitified for the job). To relate this back to Desinty. If you meet the genetic requirements? Sure you can teach, but only if you've got the best genes for the job.

Degrees - as well as CVs - relate to what you've learnt and done. Genetics are about potential at best. Which do you think is the better indicator of "worth" for a given job?

And at the end of plus. They basically say she's going back to PLANT to become the next chairman(woman).

Maybe. Or not. Being a chairwoman would be a clear conflict of interest for her present job, anyway.

Yet another proof of her superiority as a leader because of her genes (sorry just had to add that one in)

Yeah, right, and her accomplishments have nothing to do with it.

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Degrees - as well as CVs - relate to what you've learnt and done. Genetics are about potential at best. Which do you think is the better indicator of "worth" for a given job?

Maybe. Or not. Being a chairwoman would be a clear conflict of interest for her present job, anyway.

Yeah, right, and her accomplishments have nothing to do with it.

The idea is to put people in the position where they can maximize their potential. Instead of let's say having them try to reach a mediocer level because their potential isn't high in the area which they stubbornly choose to be in. The idea comes from human desire to be the best. Well if you're the best at a certain area, would you be fulfilled doing it? Degree's and CV's are made up levels of standards meaning you meet the "minimum training" in order to do the job at an acceptable level. "You have the ability to be an okay teacher" would be the idea. It does not however guaruntee that you will be a great teacher or that you even have the potential to become one. We've all had bad teachers before I'm sure. Not every educated person is a good teacher, not does the fact that you spent 2 years at some college make you into a good teacher. It just means you are qualified (have the knowledge, some of the skills, know the basic jist of what's going on) to become a teacher. You can still be terrible at your job even with a teaching degree. It's just that people hope after devoting 2 years of your life and study you'll not only have the knowledge but the drive to do so. Destiny intales you have no choice so you're going to do it to your best ability anyways.

Conflict with her present job as an orphanage caretaker?

Her accomplishments stem from abilities enabled to her by her genetic superiority.

[Demongod86]

This is why degrees from more prestigious colleges are valued far more than ones from trash colleges. This is why I went to Lehigh University instead of NJIT (even though Lehigh cost more). A degree from a good college shows that, unless you're our dumbass president Bush, you had the ability to make it in high school to get good grades to get into a good college, graduate that good college, and get a degree. Also, your college GPA counts for something. Then your master's/Ph.D as well...people don't really even succeed if they don't have the drive for it. If you don't like it, you WILL fail at it. This is why we have the educational systems we do!

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

This is why degrees from more prestigious colleges are valued far more than ones from trash colleges. This is why I went to Lehigh University instead of NJIT (even though Lehigh cost more). A degree from a good college shows that, unless you're our dumbass president Bush, you had the ability to make it in high school to get good grades to get into a good college, graduate that good college, and get a degree. Also, your college GPA counts for something. Then your master's/Ph.D as well...people don't really even succeed if they don't have the drive for it. If you don't like it, you WILL fail at it. This is why we have the educational systems we do!

Top grade genetic modifications are valued above the ones that turned out... oh I don't know... let's pick... Kira vs Shinn or Lacus vs Lunamaria. The idea is the same. In the end it's all just a means of judging the person's potential ability to satisfy and/or exceed the requirments the job. Some people are able to, some people aren't. That's why you have droppouts

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse

The idea is to put people in the position where they can maximize their potential. Instead of let's say having them try to reach a mediocer level because their potential isn't high in the area which they stubbornly choose to be in. The idea comes from human desire to be the best. Well if you're the best at a certain area, would you be fulfilled doing it? Degree's and CV's are made up levels of standards meaning you meet the "minimum training" in order to do the job at an acceptable level. "You have the ability to be an okay teacher" would be the idea. It does not however guaruntee that you will be a great teacher or that you even have the potential to become one. We've all had bad teachers before I'm sure. Not every educated person is a good teacher, not does the fact that you spent 2 years at some college make you into a good teacher. It just means you are qualified (have the knowledge, some of the skills, know the basic jist of what's going on) to become a teacher. You can still be terrible at your job even with a teaching degree. It's just that people hope after devoting 2 years of your life and study you'll not only have the knowledge but the drive to do so. Destiny intales you have no choice so you're going to do it to your best ability anyways.

And genetics tell you a lot less. Only dumbasses like Dully believe that we're 100% nature and 0% nurture. For that matter, there's is no indication that in the CE, there are practical means of controlling personality and skills to such an extent. (And no, I don't think "extendeds" are a practical way of doing things.)

While we're at it - why didn't Dullindal test his theories on genetics and how they can make your life better? On a small scale, and without needing to resort to genocide? But no! He was just so bloody certain he was right!

Conflict with her present job as an orphanage caretaker?

As a mediator between Plant and Orb.

Her accomplishments stem from abilities enabled to her by her genetic superiority.

Her accomplishments proved her abilities. She could have been a total incompetent regardless of who her father was. She wouldn't be the first mediocre child of brilliant parents. Only an idiot would ignore what she is to look at what she "ought to be" based on her genes. Or blood type. Or astrological sign - pick your zodiac.

[wingdarkness]

Unlike the real-world where we deal with race, status, and wealth as dividers between who should look down upon who...Dullindal is dealing with a society where physiological differences (unsurmountable differences) are at the core...In addition to this is a point that has been totally ignored here in this thread...Coordinators need Naturals to survive...without them they cannot keep their populas growth...Dullindal had to incorporate a plan that not only achieves peace, but one that ensures that Coordinators will be able to have a smooth starting point for procreating with Naturals...The current cyclical effect threatens the humanity of Coordinators...After Kira and Lacus walk off into the sunset who is left to ensure this crucial, yet overlooked point??

I can't say I totally agree with THE DESTINY PLAN...One of my gripes was that Fukuda's introduction and explanation of the plan is a joke and Lacus' interpretation of the plan to others was pi$$-poor (Her mind-boggling manipulation skills aside)...But to be Dully's advocate here I'd say ensuring that Coordinators can survive (just survive) is key to his plan...Unlike Zala's plan to eradicate the Naturals, he understands he needs to not only include them, but also offer them an alternative that suppresses the line of divide bewteen the two...Like his chess-playing brilliance he's looking ahead to a day where Naturals will (knowingly//unknowingly) stabalize the coordinator population...It's pure genious really...

Killing Lacus Clyne vs. trying to have that baby with Talia is a tell-tale microcosm of my point here...




Well to drastically change emotions here...

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Luke, use the force and run...run to dagobah, run to dagobah...Luke...use the force and run...run to dagobah, run to dagobah..."

"I'm Yoda, I'm a solja, I'm older than mold ya, I thought I tolja, don't be unwise take me not by my size, you won't believe your eyes watch the X-wing rise!"

XD

Man I laffed my a$$ off at this...reminds me of an old skool Master P song...That was good...

@dom33 - Thanks, i just wish I could find a better pic of Duo and his wings...

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And genetics tell you a lot less. Only dumbasses like Dully believe that we're 100% nature and 0% nurture. For that matter, there's is no indication that in the CE, there are practical means of controlling personality and skills to such an extent. (And no, I don't think "extendeds" are a practical way of doing things.)

While we're at it - why didn't Dullindal test his theories on genetics and how they can make your life better? On a small scale, and without needing to resort to genocide? But no! He was just so bloody certain he was right!

As a mediator between Plant and Orb.

Her accomplishments proved her abilities. She could have been a total incompetent regardless of who her father was. She wouldn't be the first mediocre child of brilliant parents. Only an idiot would ignore what she is to look at what she "ought to be" based on her genes. Or blood type. Or astrological sign - pick your zodiac.

Gil was never stupid, people just never realized the extent of his genius. It's not nature vs nuture. It's systems that control the nuture aspect of it so all that's left is to worry about the nature part. A system that controls how you grow up, what you believe in, what you will become when you grow up based upon your genetic talents. You have the best teachers in the fields of science teaching future scientists. The best art teacher teaching future artist, the best medical teachers teaching future doctors so that they can embrace and become what what they were meant to be. Mwu and the extended were the test bed for memory and mind manipulation. They were successfully controlled using that techinque. The difficencies of the extended had nothing to do with the mind control aspects. They were manipulated to have disfunctional bodies in order to maintain control. They were more obediant and easier to control than the first generations (from GS).

Her job as the mediator was completed with the signing of the peace treaty on the terms that she rejoin PLANT.

Without the genes she would never have been able to accomplish what she did. Only an idiot would ignore the source of her power. Idiots don't become geniuses just cause their parents try to raise them into it. They have to have the potential there first before it can be harnessed and made into reality. Without ability you cannot accomplish anything

[Demongod86]

I don't think you are simply brilliant because of genes. Lacus's goodness I think is far more nurture than it is nature. She was brought up having everything, and her father was very kind to her, even though her mother undoubtedly died (odds are, her mother was very VERY beautiful). Lacus's kindness and people skills come from the people around her. Sure, part of it is genetics, but sometimes, (read: very RARELY) genetics can be overcome. Either way, genetics are not a one-all, end all thing. Sure, they might determine eye colors, hair color, etc...but I mean that presentation with Djibril getting the red card and him and his cat (HOW DID DURANDALL KNOW JIBBY HAD THAT CAT) becoming clowns, that could very well be a very highly-paid company official or whatnot.

@ Anh Minh: well, remember, we're dealing with incompetent writers that make Kira and Lacus gods to such an extent that people want them out of the story just to make it more interesting. So part of Durandall's flaws can be attributed back to Fucks-everything-up-uda

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I don't think you are simply brilliant because of genes. Lacus's goodness I think is far more nurture than it is nature. She was brought up having everything, and her father was very kind to her, even though her mother undoubtedly died (odds are, her mother was very VERY beautiful). Lacus's kindness and people skills come from the people around her. Sure, part of it is genetics, but sometimes, (read: very RARELY) genetics can be overcome. Either way, genetics are not a one-all, end all thing. Sure, they might determine eye colors, hair color, etc...but I mean that presentation with Djibril getting the red card and him and his cat (HOW DID DURANDALL KNOW JIBBY HAD THAT CAT) becoming clowns, that could very well be a very highly-paid company official or whatnot.

@ Anh Minh: well, remember, we're dealing with incompetent writers that make Kira and Lacus gods to such an extent that people want them out of the story just to make it more interesting. So part of Durandall's flaws can be attributed back to Fucks-everything-up-uda

For someone that seemed to have no close personal friends other than a robot built by her fiance, she does have exceptional interpersonal skills. Beauty (an inherited trait), singing ability (inherited, skill is developed or what should be labelled for this debate as the product of nuturing). But as in the my last post it's about systems that control the nuturing to suit the "natural" design of things. Given the same nuturing, a person with the genetic abilities instilled in them will far surpass a person without the genetic ability and just the nuturing. You accuse me of ignoring nuture and focusing on nature. I think you're guilty of ignoring the fact that a person with the same nurture but a supporting nature to that nuturing would be the best solution to the problem.

I don't understand the cat thing and the card thing ( are you going off on tangents in the middle of written arguments?) If you're talking about how do people know what geneticly decided job suits what person? The Destiny system (semi operational for about 2 episodes before everything messed)

[cloudedge]

Destiny Plan, welcome to the Brave New World

Like some other have mentioned, Genetics can only measure your potential.. You gene at best can describe your potential talent in vague terms... like whether you're strong in analytical/visual/physical well being/communication... it can probably give a vague sketch of your personality... patient/hot head/indecisive etc... but i doubt that anywhere in the gene it'll inscribed a profession that you're destined to...

And this is where the plan gets ugly... how do we measure? how do we interpretate the result of gene test? who sets the standard.. Say if you look at kira's result.. he has great talent in the analytical/math department (which can be translate as great computer scientist), but also have superb reflex and eye-hand coordination (which can make him a pilot or a professional dart player heehee j/k)... you see, how your gene test is interpreted determines your life, and since the plan is suggested by the government, we can safely assumed that the standards and test interpretations are also going to be done by government owned institution.. now would you still want a Destiny Plan?

And worse yet, if you mix this with economics (demand/supply of labour) then you get one HUGE mess that's extemely similar to Orwell's Brave New World

[Demongod86]

Beauty is only an inherited trait so long as you nurture that beauty. Lacus's singing ability? Hmmm, I'll definitely bite on that one. It takes relatively little skill. And as for her interpersonal skills, well, she was going around with her father a lot, wasn't she?

@ Cloudedge...another well-read person. Cookie 4 u!

[cloudedge]

heehe i love that book... along with 1984 and Farenhiet (sp?) 451..
I love reading fictional social structures.. i guess that's why i watch Gundam >.>

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Destiny Plan, welcome to the Brave New World

Like some other have mentioned, Genetics can only measure your potential.. You gene at best can describe your potential talent in vague terms... like whether you're strong in analytical/visual/physical well being/communication... it can probably give a vague sketch of your personality... patient/hot head/indecisive etc... but i doubt that anywhere in the gene it'll inscribed a profession that you're destined to...

And this is where the plan gets ugly... how do we measure? how do we interpretate the result of gene test? who sets the standard.. Say if you look at kira's result.. he has great talent in the analytical/math department (which can be translate as great computer scientist), but also have superb reflex and eye-hand coordination (which can make him a pilot or a professional dart player heehee j/k)... you see, how your gene test is interpreted determines your life, and since the plan is suggested by the government, we can safely assumed that the standards and test interpretations are also going to be done by government owned institution.. now would you still want a Destiny Plan?

And worse yet, if you mix this with economics (demand/supply of labour) then you get one HUGE mess that's extemely similar to Orwell's Brave New World

I believe it to be similar to an attitude test, the combination of genetic traits makes you stronger in some areas while not as strong in other (or maybe the idea is that you don't excel as much in other areas. I don't really know if you actually get weaker in others given that everyone's been genetially manipulated on the coordinator side).

I've heard of the story... It's the one where you have the "coordinator" type and "naturalists" types. Where the "coordinator" types invent machines to take over the labour of earth the "naturalists" believe everyone should revert to an agrarian culture again, and they end up sending the "naturalists" to other planets to be argrarian there?

Because we never got to see the full extent of control which the Destiny Plan entails. My guess control would almost be absolute including population control and population make up (ie. you have X number of people being born within a year and the beak up is n% is workers, y% is doctors and 0% is lawyers)

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Beauty is only an inherited trait so long as you nurture that beauty. Lacus's singing ability? Hmmm, I'll definitely bite on that one. It takes relatively little skill. And as for her interpersonal skills, well, she was going around with her father a lot, wasn't she?

@ Cloudedge...another well-read person. Cookie 4 u!

Beauty is an inherited trait unless you mean plastic surgery in terms of nuture? Or are you going more torwards keeping the body fit, atheletics, yoga, etc. As for singing, I defy you to go up to any formally trained singer and tell them it takes relatively little skill. And her interpersonal skills? That you sit back and follow daddy like a little puppy that's put on display does not make you have good interpersonal skills. Unless of course you some how are able to learn at unatural rate through just observation alone. I personally didn't see her interact with too many people