Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[taichi-kun]

It was a great episode

I thought Taimei Shihen and the Psalm of Grand Order were the same thing,but I was wrong because shana used It to destroy the egg...

[Senshigeia]

Excellent episode, 9/10!

Not as good as the previous one, but still epic. This war is really exciting and the building up for the season's climax is fantastic. Each week I want to watch more and more!
I am happy to see Wilhelmina's feelings so strongly: most of the time she didn't show much emotion, although it was obvious she cares deeply for Shana. And also we already knew her deep friendship for Mathilde, but other than that I saw her as a very frivolous character. To see her so overwhelmed by Pheles acts made me realize how deep her feeling really are. I am glad to see her friendship with Margery. Oh, speaking of the chanter of elegies, glad to see her fighting in her full glory!! And Yuji, no hard feelings...
As for the rings, I still find them a little confusing. In fact, some anime details get me confused sometimes and I only understand them after reading this thread and the post made by all of the fans, regarding the episode's events.

Spoiler for Yuji's spell:

Isn't Yuji's speel Grammatica? Just asking...

As for Rofocale, he was saying that neither Xanadu's creation or Shana's plan was enough to make and oracle appear, but in the end something's cough his eyes. What was it?

[Kristen]

I seriously wonder how they're going to wrap this up in 4 episodes. I really thought that 2 of the trinity would have to be dead by now, with maybe the last one dying in the last episode or something.

[virox]

So, can anyone tell me if they are still sticking close to the novel with this episode? No spoilers, just yes or no.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by silvercover

man I hope yuuji's plans arent screwed over. overall, an excellent episode.
now I wonder what the bard saw and if it will push them to make a move.

I don't think it would be.

The best defence against your enemy is to know what their objective is.

Yuji's fatal flaw in his strategy is that he's assuming they're trying to destroy Xanadu but like Bel Peol said, "by this time it's already too late" and the Flame Hazes aren't acting aggressively enough in that sense.

If the strategy was to destroy it they'd be throwing everything at it and not just have the 3 gods act as a delaying unit.

By the way, is this Oracle God, the third one, more powerful than Alastor and Snake?

[~Yami~]

as usual, Deathscyther explanation is the best ..... LOL

ok... first, I'm glad Margery comes to help Wilhelmina.... or else, Wilhelmina will lose her will as flame haze and maybe ended like Margery in episode 4
Maybe Shakugan no Shana won't tell us every Flame Haze's past or development... but their choice to show us more about Shana, Margery, and Wilhelmina are very good since we already seen them around since first season

agree with Deathscyther, Yuji isn't weak... He is fighting to protect something and it's hard when you have to defense something big in your back... Now, Shana has defeated him with her experience... Yuji isn't trained to sense anything because he's still new about this Flame Haze and Tomogara's stuff... Now, he just realized that he rely on Johan's power too much and need some supports from his General, Sydonay.

so, that rings contain some information to hack the world egg's data?? then, it's like a virus program... lol
I hope neither Yuji or Shana's plan will work.... I really hope at the end, there will be some twists and both of them will develop a plan together...

the last question will be what Pheles and Johan are going to do... It looks like Johan already realized Shana and Yuji's plan and he is trying to execute some plans to connect both of it. I'm expecting a showdown between Alastor, Sairei no Hebi, and Shaher

Next episode... everything will be cleared and I can't wait for it.... aaaahhh~~~ Shakugan no Shana is going to end soon... ;___;

[elior]

Originally Posted by virox

So, can anyone tell me if they are still sticking close to the novel with this episode? No spoilers, just yes or no.

yes we still sticking close to the novel in this episode

[Guardian Enzo]

Who was the flame haze who said “What is considered victory? Who are we trying to satisfy?” Because I've been thinking that for most of the season...

[Elf song]

Her name is Hildegard, one of the veteran Flame Haze which J.C. cut her fighting scene with Haborym (gas masked Denizen).

[syke123]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

I actually don't think that Pheles was aware of Wilhelmina's oath to fight for Shana. There is no way she should be able to know. I think Pheles' reason for not letting Wilhelmina help her is more simple. I think that Pheles and Johan are planning something which doesn't require Wilhelmina's assistance.

This was also deeper, she knows that she's a significant character in Shana's eyes. She isn't simply an acquaintance, and she acknowledges that. She obviously never told Pheles that she raised Shana due to a request. But she knows and could see that theirs a mother-daughter relationship seperating them from her. She also knew that she'd have to take Shana's side if she was in any real danger, and since they both have two different agendas it'd collide with wilhelmina. Pheles and Johan, saved her the trouble from fighting against old and cherished friends that she still cherishes. Same applies to their situation.

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

Since Pheles told Wilhelmina 'I'm sorry' before she left, I think that she does know that Wilhelmina wants to help her and that she's hurting Wilhelmina by shutting her out. I do think that Pheles really sees Wilhelmina as an important person, so I guess that Pheles either doesn't want Wilhelmina to be in danger because of her or that she's going to do something which she doesn't want Wilhelmina to see. I still think that Johan won't be able to last without the Reiji Maigo, so I guess that by releasing Johan from the reiji maigo, Pheles and Johan are planning some kind of last-ditch effort to save their existences.

Yeah, I think Johan is planning something for Yuji's sake. Guessing from last episode how he mentioned that the conclusion wouldn't benefit Yuji, since he isn't a god. So I'm guessing he's going to try and stop him from self sacrifice, since he didn't win back the Reiji Maigo.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by syke123

This was also deeper, she knows that she's a significant character in Shana's eyes. She isn't simply an acquaintance, and she acknowledges that. She obviously never told Pheles that she raised Shana due to a request. But she knows and could see that theirs a mother-daughter relationship seperating them from her. She also knew that she'd have to take Shana's side if she was in any real danger, and since they both have two different agendas it'd collide with wilhelmina. Pheles and Johan, saved her the trouble from fighting against old and cherished friends that she still cherishes. Same applies to their situation.

Yeah, I think Johan is planning something for Yuji's sake. Guessing from last episode how he mentioned that the conclusion wouldn't benefit Yuji, since he isn't a god. So I'm guessing he's going to try and stop him from self sacrifice, since he didn't win back the Reiji Maigo.

I think you're giving Pheles and Johan too much credit. I don't think they're doing anything for Yuji, Shana, Kazumi or Wilhelmina. I think that they're doing everything for their own 'selfish' goals.

Pheles intervened between Shana and Yuji because that's the 'wish' Kazumi used to summon her. She didn't voluntarily help Kazumi. She only helped Kazumi out of respect for creating a miracle. Pheles probably told Wilhelmina 'I'm sorry' because she didn't tell Wilhelmina her plan and didn't take her with her. She still sees Wilhelmina as a friend and she probably understands that Wilhelmina wants to help her. I don't think it even crossed her mind that Wilhelmina might have had to choose between her and Shana. Everything that Pheles has done until now is because of her 'selfish' desire to be with Johan. Nothing else really matters in her eyes. She was even willing to 'use' her good friend, Wilhelmina, to get Johan back to her side back in season 2.

Same goes for Johan. While he indeed gave Yuji advice, I don't think he really did this to help Yuji. I think he did this mostly to prove a point, to prove that love is the most beautiful thing in the world. Since he thought that Yuji wasn't taking love seriously, he wanted to try to change Yuji's mind and gave him advice about it. I think that's all there was to it.

I think there's a reason for Johan leaving the Reiji Maigo behind as well. When Pheles came to Misaki City in season 2 and Johan came out for a short moment, he apparently asked her to prepare for this moment. Since Pheles seemed so hesitant to fulfil Johan's wishes, I have been trying to figure out what he told her back then. And I think I came up with a possible answer.

I have a feeling that Johan was slowly dying within the Reiji Maigo. He was still a human when he was transported into the Reiji Maigo, right? He was injured pretty heavily by Sabrac after all and living within a treasure tool for so long can't be very healthy either. Maybe even taking the Reiji Maigo for himself isn't enough to keep him alive. If that's really the case, then it makes sense for him to leave it behind, since he has no use for it anymore. This would explain why Pheles was so hesitant about fulfilling Johan's wishes.

If my theory is correct, then I guess that Johan and Pheles are acting in order to preserve their love somehow. Looking at the weird thing that Rofocale spotted in the minivan, I guess that they've already put some kind of plan into motion. As they took Kazumi with them, I have a feeling that they still need her for something. It doesn't look like they took her with them to get her out of harms way, because she seems to be in just as much or even more danger now.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by taichi-kun

It was a great episode

I thought Taimei Shihen and the Psalm of Grand Order were the same thing,but I was wrong because shana used It to destroy the egg...

Taimei Shihen is the entire ritual of the Snake


Next ep, Chiara finally shines.... yes

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by virox

So, can anyone tell me if they are still sticking close to the novel with this episode? No spoilers, just yes or no.

Yes. They are. Nothing ass pulled

By the way, is this Oracle God, the third one, more powerful than Alastor and Snake?

No, by all appearances

[Triple_R]

I liked this episode. The action scenes were great as usual, and this anime is good at capturing a dramatic feel.

But the way this episode developed (and particularly the way it ended) made me realize two things that I didn't quite realize before, pertaining to my own preferences:

1. I want Yuji to succeed in implementing his plan. I never really put much emotional investment in it before, because I have to admit I've kind of been assuming that Yuji would successfully implement at least the bulk of his plans. He may die in the process, but Shana and the Flame Hazes wouldn't stop his plans.

2. I really don't want Shana III to end on a kind of/sort of status quo note where no lasting solution is found to the Flame Haze/Tomogara problems. If Yuji's plan fails, and you don't have some firm resolution to take its place, I have to admit that I'm going to find that lame after all this time has been spent on this epic war.


I honestly never imagined that Shana would cleanly win this fight with Yuji and get through in time to what him and Sydonay were guarding. So I was pretty startled by the end of this episode. I now have just a sliver of doubt in my mind over whether or not I'm going to like Shana III's ending, whereas I never really had any doubt of that over the past 12 or so episodes.


Still, it's just a sliver of doubt, and I have no major complaints over this episode, so 8/10.

[klare]

lots of action, Shana Punch!

ok will wait for the next eps to hear their objective

[Deathscyther]

I was just thinking about something. I think Yuji's chances for survival have increased somewhat because of him learning 'Sakai Yuji's' own unrestriced spell. The first time he used it out of instict when he couldn't stop Shana's flames, but he managed to cast the spell a second time when he concentrated (although it crumbled against Shana's Shinku). Why give him his own spell if he's going to 'die' soon?

This might hint towards Yuji separating from SnH at some point, since he'd probably lose the powers of the God when that happens.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I liked this episode. The action scenes were great as usual, and this anime is good at capturing a dramatic feel.

But the way this episode developed (and particularly the way it ended) made me realize two things that I didn't quite realize before, pertaining to my own preferences:

1. I want Yuji to succeed in implementing his plan. I never really put much emotional investment in it before, because I have to admit I've kind of been assuming that Yuji would successfully implement at least the bulk of his plans. He may die in the process, but Shana and the Flame Hazes wouldn't stop his plans.

Same here. I've been rooting for Yuji since the beginning of the season. He's creating a whole new world in order to make sure his loved one doesn't have to fight anymore. He doesn't care what happens to himself and doesn't care if the whole world is against him. If Shana will be able to live a peaceful and happy life that way, then it's all worth it in his eyes. He's got my respect.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. I really don't want Shana III to end on a kind of/sort of status quo note where no lasting solution is found to the Flame Haze/Tomogara problems. If Yuji's plan fails, and you don't have some firm resolution to take its place, I have to admit that I'm going to find that lame after all this time has been spent on this epic war.

Basically the whole series has revolved around this everlasting war between the flame haze and guze no tomogara. So I think the series will end with some kind of solution for this problem. At the moment SnH's plan seems to be the only solution for the problem though. Yuji, who has 'lived' at both sides and has a clear understanding of the problem, has agreed with this plan. The flame haze and tomogara don't seem to have any other solution at the moment either.

There are still enough reasons why I believe that Yuji's plan will still work, even though there might be some minor changes because of Shana's interference:

• At the end of this episode Shana could have destroyed the worlds egg when she was breaking through Yuji's defenses, but she didn't. She instead threw the chorde at the worlds egg, resulting in her piece of Taimei Shihen mixing with Yuji's Taimei Shihen. Why would she do this if she was trying to stop Xanadu from being created? Why would the Gods of the Motherland stall for time instead of helping her to destroy the worlds egg?
  
  I have a feeling that Shana's plan won't destroy Yuji's plan, but that her plan will combine her and Yuji's wishes somehow. Nearly all flame haze broke down when SnH/Yuji announced his goals, because the creation of Xanadu would solve most of their problems. The guze no tomogara would disappear from this world and humans wouldn't be eaten in this world anymore after all. Because of that Flame haze wouldn't be needed. Even though this world will benefit greatly from the creation of Xanadu, Shana has decided to fight Yuji because it wouldn't solve the main problem. The balance of the 'greater world' would still be at risk. That's the only reason why she decided to fight. She's not completely against the creation of this new world. But what if Shana found a way to make sure that the balance of the 'greater world' would be safe as well? That's why I think that Shana's piece of Taimei Shihen is an alteration of the 'code' instead of some kind of virus.

• Yuji, the main character of the series, would have sacrificed his existence and the bonds with his parents/friends for nothing. By executing his plan, he basically decided to fight all alone. His important people have either forgotten about him or are fighting against him. If his plan would be stopped, Shana still wouldn't be able to have a 'peaceful' life where she doesn't have to fight until her existence burns out. Yuji would never be able to be happy this way and Shana wouldn't be either. It would be a bad end for both of them.

• 80% of the flame haze have died during the war. If Yuji's plan fails and the guze no tomogara stay in this world, the flame haze won't be able to match them. The numbers of the tomogara will be too big for them to handle. The balance would crumble at a rapid pace because there aren't enough flame haze to keep the tomogara in check. Shana and the other flame haze must have realized this as well.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by klare

lots of action, Shana Punch!

ok will wait for the next eps to hear their objective

I still like to call it the Baka Punch

[king12354]

Sigh. Lots of lost potential in the 3rd season. Just watching for the sake of finishing. Don't care much about the characters as I used to.

[~Yami~]

just realized this.... I found out Rofocale and Rammie are playing mysterious part in Tomogara's side..
I'll be laugh if giving Taimei Shihen to Flame Haze is still part of Yuji's plan...

Wilhelmina said she trusts Rammie, but is he really trustworthy???

there are too many mysterious things around Yuji and Shana's plan...
Maybe Johan is Flame Haze's secret agent in Tomogara side while Spiral Organ and Rofocale are secret agents in Flame Haze side???

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by ~Yami~

just realized this.... I found out Rofocale and Rammie are playing mysterious part in Tomogara's side..
I'll be laugh if giving Taimei Shihen to Flame Haze is still part of Yuji's plan...

Wilhelmina said she trusts Rammie, but is he really trustworthy???

there are too many mysterious things around Yuji and Shana's plan...
Maybe Johan is Flame Haze's secret agent in Tomogara side while Spiral Organ and Rofocale are secret agents in Flame Haze side???

Double agents everywhere.

But i'm more concerned about Deathscyther's post it appears like Johan and Phele are trying to create another RM with Kazumi as the catalyst, something game breaking enough for that musician guy to gasp in horror.