[Spoilers] Anyone tired of this loser named Naruto?

[Colordevil]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

I haven't been too active on these boards recently, perhaps because I am being less and less of a fan of this series because of the direction its going. This topic is mostly about the character Naruto, but I do have some issues with the quality of the anime. This will be a very long post, so grab a snack if you’re gonna read it. *After Finishing*: I wrote this post under MS word and it was about 7.3 pages. Using the word count, I know this “essay” will have to stretch along 3 posts so bear with me. EDIT: Well, it seems the lifted they 10k character limit for posts on this forum. Yay!

First of all, Naruto’s background and character concept really isn’t that new to me. He’s a kid with no parents, no friends in his past and that has given him some pains in the past. Further more he has been somewhat of an outcast because of the fact that Kyuubi is sealed inside of him and Kyuubi was the cause of many shinobi in Konoha. Naruto is also starts out as a dropout(really just a talentless, and ability-less) in school. He screws around in class and can’t do some of the basic ninjitsu and sucks at almost everything.

Where’s the storyline gonna go? It was obvious from the beginning that this wasn’t a character that really sucked, and was probably going to be on the path to be the strongest later. Anyone who has watched a few semi-action or full action anime knows that the main character is almost always the strongest, or at least has the most potential. Despite being predictable I watch them to see the action, and other plot developments, and perhaps they may even reveal the main character’s strength in interesting ways. This is where Naruto fails horribly in my opinion.

Note: I initially had the next paragraph towards the end but moved it up in the interest of getting to my point sooner, and then elaborating on it. It might make the flow of this post seem a bit broken though.


Perhaps the biggest reason why Naruto annoys me is his drive to become stronger. He says he is gonna be a Hokage and is going to work really hard at it, but what work have we seen him put in thus far? He screwed around in school all the freggin time, and only trains when teachers have a new jutsu to teach him formally. What a lamer. He should really be trying to improve the jutsu he already knows because he almost never uses them correctly (the few he does), or he could be practicing general ninja arts like throwing weapons, taijutsu, and speed – traditional training like what Rock Lee does. Naruto’s shallow pursuit for power is to take the quickest way there through “uber 1337 jutsu” that he really shouldn’t be learning to become truly strong. If he can never use those jutsu properly, then he probably can fight people on his level with it, and is even further disadvantaged when using it against stronger people who exploit it in some way. You can also tell his impatience during the beginning of his trip with Jiraiya to get Tsunade when Naruto wanted him to hurry up and teach him and ultra-jutsu. In my opinion, Jiraiya teaching Naruto Rasengan was a mistake. He should still force Naruto to become better overall. Gamabunta summon was for Naruto’s protection – Rasengan was not. What sickens me about this is that they anime beefs up Naruto as if he really is strong, and really does work hard when clearly he puts average effort at the very best into what he does, has no talent, and still wins. At the same time, hard workers like Rock Lee lose, geniuses (and hard working too if you ask me) like Neji, and monsters like Gaara lose to him – All while Naruto is neither a genius nor hard worker. He’s just a “boy with a dream” with a “spirit that never dies.” That’s a very bad message to send to younger audiences as there are only two types of people that are successful in this world (maybe three or four). There are those that are geniuses, and those that word hard. One or the other will determine your success in life more than likely. It is also SLIGHTLY possible that luck will do it. The last possibility is inheriting success (wealth and status). As I said before, Naruto is not hard working and not a genius. He is possibly lucky, and perhaps you could call him an inheritor of success (Kyuubi). But luck and inheritance isn’t something people can strive to be/have. It just doesn’t work because luck is extremely rare, and inheritance is out of anyone’s control. Then who is Naruto inspiration for? Those with dreams with no talent to back it up, and not willing to put the real effort to work hard for it? No sympathies from me from that group. I don’t think there is anyone in the world that would support someone in such a group so when they is Naruto even a liked character?

Next part is my wave of complaints against things that happen to “demonstrate” the character Naruto’s hard work and path to being stronger. The next…many paragraphs are just me ranting and giving examples. Skip to the next part to save time if you want.


In the first episode, Naruto follows the advice of a corrupted Chuunin, and steals a forbidden scroll in the village to learn some jutsu and learns the holy Kage Bunshin no utsu in a few hours. First of all, how can this talentless boy learn a jutsu more advanced than the simple stuff he’s supposed to be doing in school in a few hours? If he really is that talented, then it shows how much of a dropout he is in school being that he doesn’t put any effort at all into it. Further more in the first episode Naruto beats a Chuunin, as much of a crappy Chuunin he may have been, Naruto wasn’t even a genin at this point, and was at the lowest end of the academy. Perhaps the fight was anime balanced, and I let it slide in my mind for the first episode.

As Naruto makes it on the same team as Sakura and Sasuke, they play the bell game with Kakashi, further showing how much is he a dropout. You see him go after Kakashi and make every bad possible decision. It’s Naruto’s fault again when Sasuke and Sakura give him food, and in doing so they all should have failed. Failure once because Naruto sucks, and twice because Naruto couldn’t be strong-willed enough to not let his teammates fail and beg for food. To redeem his character, we have the weak notion of “teamwork” presented here. It’s all good that they are trying to preach about something good, but they broke a rule, during a test. To say “they were supposed to break it” was a retarded lesson/thing to teach. Obviously they weren’t allowed to break the rules under the 1st Chuunin Exam, when those who broke the rules failed automatically. In my opinion, the first “fix” (teamwork) was the lame thing that was put there to take the focus of Naruto’s inherent crappiness.

Move to example, we look at the Water Country arc when Sasuke and Naruto fight Haku. In the beginning of this arc, when the 2 Chuunins attacked, Naruto’s freeze up showed his crappieness again. At this point though, I wasn’t bothered because it was allowing more room for improvement. The story did a decent job in showing Naruto getting stronger later though, as he got pretty decent chakra control and matched Sasuke in this area. In doing so they completely trashed Sakura’s usefulness though. Anyways, move to the demonic mirror right. So Naruto was supposed to be better right? NOT. The dumbass jumps in the mirror and almost got his teammate killed. Good job with the teamwork there. Sasuke would have had a lot more time to live without having to defend Naruto and stood more of a chance at winning the fight – through normal means and ability. So after Sasuke is creamed, and Naruto gets up, we get presented with this ever-so-present theme of the main character’s wildcard. Some battle rage mode that makes him go crazy and kick everyone’s ass – that is Kyuubi in this case. Obviously Naruto wins the fight easily as this element in any anime is pretty much unbeatable/undefeated. The issue here is that Naruto isn’t in control of it when it happens and he can’t draw upon that strength at will. I get to that more later though. Perhaps this was still too early for Naruto to show major applicable improvement being that it was early in the anime and they had to have Naruto go crazy to win the fight. Next slide -

So water country is over, and we move to the chuunin exam – where the first part is a written test. Seems like no teamwork is allowed here – and this time it’s for real because anyone who tries to cheat fails. Really now? When are the rules supposed to be followed? Only when the anime makers see it benefiting Naruto? Perhaps. So, in this exam the conditions were not to cheat, and if anyone failed(got a zero) they could never take the chuunin exam ever again in addition to failing. Also, when the tenth question was presented, that question alone was the deciding factor. Obviously, Naruto is the weakest point on the team, and his lack of education and talent would actually put him in danger of getting a zero, and thus screwing over Sasuke and Sakura forever. Naruto being so “determined” and strong-willed stuck through this exam and didn’t back down. That was EXTREMELY stupid of him being that he had NOTHING answered thus far and stood little chance of knowing the answer to the final question. Why would someone even put their teammates in such a position/risk when he didn’t know he was going to pass in the way he did? Of course they sugar-coated what Naruto did as courage that a chuunin should have courage when leading a team on a mission, but one still has to look at reality in situations and not do what’s dumb. The difference between a mission and the exam, is that the exam could be backed down from without penalty. Oh sure, you have to wait next year for the chuunin exam – whatever. Young people still have a lot of years left in them. Be smart with it, not irrational. Just a small step back – before they even started that part, Rock Lee owned Naruto like he was his bitch. Of course he did so to Sasuke too at the time. But at least he could somewhat keep up with what was going on and how he got owned.

Move to Forest of Death – Supposedly this is where Naruto was shining, and Sasuke was the scaredy cat. IMHO Sasuke did the right thing. He was good enough to know that Orochimaru(without knowing his true identity) was way over his/their level and that he would die fighting someone like that. The only reason he didn’t(and the rest of the team) die is because Orochiimaru didn’t want to do that – of course Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke don’t know this. For all they know, Orochimaru was trying to kill them to take the scroll away. As before, this is sugarcoated with some notion of courage and facing death when you need to. Once again – if it’s a life or death situation, you should not fight if you don’t stand a chance unless you can’t back down. Team 7 could have backed down, but Naruto forced the team to fight a battle that he knew no way of winning. Of course, Naruto shone a bit here due to his anime character “wildcard” that would never let him completely lose(die). Sasuke was completely right when he said “nothing changed” when Naruto shows up. I guess this is a slight improvement over Naruto jumping in the Demonic Ice Mirrors from Haku where he made the situation worse by showing up.

Next moment of improvement for Naruto was towards the end of the Forest of Death and he fought the 3 clone/gas/ink or whatever dudes. Supposedly he thought of a brilliant plan and allowed his team to rest, but it was far from a calculated thing. Naruto does have crazy chakra capacity, but he wasn’t conscious of what his limits were and just did whatever. I guess I’ll let Naruto have this moment though. He at least did demonstrate that he has a monster chakra capacity and stamina. No skill improvement though – none at all.

Fight with Kiba – skill wise, Kiba > Naruto. The whole match, you see Naruto get his ass kicked by Kiba. Naruto doesn’t even come close in skill to touching Kiba except with stupid attacks don’t that mean anything (biting). This fight really should have been Naruto’s loss, but they make him magically get from every attack Kiba throws at him, even his major ones. It’s pretty clear that Kiba is over his level as Naruto doesn’t come close to having a real defense against Kiba’s attacks, and even all of the observers except – *gasp* - the people that know the real Naruto. So yeah, Naruto delivers one grand combo, and Kiba is out cold after taking no real damage before then. That was not a convincing or satisfying victory. Watching fights like that are so horribly “anime balanced” that it disgusts me to watch it.

After this exam portion, we meet a temporary mentor for Naruto (Jiraiya). Under his teaching, Naruto learns how to draw upon Kyuubi’s chakra and learns the frog summoning jutsu(s?). This was a normal/real mark of Naruto getting better. You know, the step that makes the character’s fights from there on out more serious? Similar to Kenshin learning his ougi and stepping up to the highest level in strength? Yeah, it was ssupposed to be like that. So in Naruto’s next fight with Neji we get to see him demonstrate that ability.

First of all, as the fight with Kiba, we still see that Naruto sucks when it gets down to a normal fight and is as much of a loser everyone says he is. He doesn’t come close to putting a scratch on Neji. Even at the moment when it seemed he was close because he used his wits a bit for once, he was still a world away in ability as Neji still dodged the attack. Perhaps this fight showed slight improvement as Naruto did manage to dodge a rather serious attack from Neji aimed at his tenketsu. But still, the different was greatly shown, as Naruto had nothing to do in the face of kaiten. And he showed the lack of ability to think his way out the situation such as using long range attacks continuously – even though Naruto probably isn’t skilled enough force Neji to use kaiten against his long range attacks. Then we see Naruto get nailed by Hakke Rokujuuyonshou (Divination Circle - 64 hands). Not only did Naruto not come close to defending it, but he lacked the ability to realize the presence of the Divination Circle and know to try to get out of it. It is invisible, but the concept of a fighters range is universal – you gotta realize that in a certain range, you are venerable to certain attacks. If you can’t defend them, then stay out of it as much as possible. But of course, Naruto has to get up from every attack as any resilient main character would do. Then Naruto get’s his “final wind” and willingly draws upon Kyuubi’s chakra, which I thought was a good step in showing improvement from him. I wasn’t fully convinced of his victory though as they still only showed Naruto fighting equal to Neji’s level, and Neji was knocked out from only taking two hits – one was partially reflected by Kaiten, and the other was a normal uppercut from Naruto. That isn’t enough if you ask me to make him all beat up after what Naruto had been through. I still enjoyed the fight though as Naruto took this step up.

But then, a few episodes later, at the start of the invasion – Naruto is woken up Sakura. We see a ninja appear behind him, and for a moment he was a gonner as he was completely frozen AGAIN. Seriously, wtf just happened to the step up he had a few episodes earlier? Naruto’s ability just seemingly took a step up, and right after he shows his lack of ability in a real situation. Next fight is against Gaara turning demon:

So this fight I don’t really give too much credit towards Naruto. His Nisen Redan move was quite delicious, but was nothing more than a brute force move well placed against someone so large and unable to move. And the reason he wasn’t able to move, was pure luck in my opinion. It was quite impressive to see Naruto at least use a generally good tactic by attaching an explosive note to a kunai, but the effect was luck. Gamabunta summon did come at a rather desperate time, I would have been more satisfied if they animated/realized it better in the anime though. From here on out, Naruto is fighting a type of battle that is one only the main character in a series can take part in. From here on out, I wouldn’t really call it Naruto’s strength too much as Gamabunta was summoned and doing most of the fighting at this point. Though at the end, he did draw on some of Kyuubi’s chakra inside him to keep going. In the end, this fight wasn’t really a show of how much stronger Naruto is than the rest of his peers, but rather the result of a single jutsu he learned, and his wildcard in the end.

Next step we get Naruto when he was learning Rasengan from Jiraiya. This is another crazy high level jutsu that if Naruto uses against people on his level, they are pretty sure to not get up if they are hit by it. Naruto learning this jutsu, was not proof of his skill/improvement in my opinion. If you ask me, the reason why lower level ninjas like them don’t learn high level jutsu is because they probably won’t use it effectively and would end up wasting their chakra trying to do such. The chakra control Naruto exercised for this jutsu is unique to only it and is something anyone is physically able to do. Naruto’s training didn’t show much ability either has every step of the way he had to get help and figuring out what to do. On top of that he demonstrated a lack ff ability in doing the justu with one hand as he had to use two hands. Of course this was cleverly sugarcoated by Jiraiya calling him “clever” for doing so. I don’t know about other people, but I wouldn’t think someone was clever if they “figured” out how to do something with two hands that I showed them I could do with one.

Anyways, so Itachi comes to town and Naruto gets smocked yet again – supposedly calling Kyuubi’s chakra at will. Too bad it was stripped away by Kisame because Naruto is too slow at doing it. I guess this doesn’t count for much being that Kisame and Itachi are way over his level. If Kishimoto actually had Naruto inflict damage at this stage, then Naruto would have to have taken a huge step up in his fighting ability, which is clearly not shown.

Naruto vs Kabuto – Come on now. This whole fight was Naruto getting his ass kicked like every other fight. His opponent was way over his level and he shouldn’t have been able to hit anything. But of course we have Naruto’s dreams being attacked, such that he is pissed off to the utter point of desperation and always getting up from anything the enemy threw at him, we have Naruto pulling off a lucky Rasengan. I really wonder how Naruto gets up from everything that no one else does. Shizune was out like a light from one attack from Kabuto. Perhaps Kabuto was just taking Naruto too lightly and Shinuze he gave a much more serious attack. Either way, it gave Naruto an opportunity he wouldn’t have if his opponent was actually taking him seriously. Even despite this, the way Naruto connected his Rasengan wasn’t convincing at all for me. First of all, his left arm vs Kabuto’s right. Kabuto also being much older than he is and on a much higher level, he should have been able to throw someone like Naruto away using the same hand assuming Kabuto is really on Kakakshi’s level. Also, he still had a left hand completely free to do whatever he wanted defensively or offensively. In the end, Naruto still lost as Kabuto already had a defense planned, but in my opinion, the move shouldn’t have even connected.

Skipping all of the anime filler that occurred…cuz I didn’t watch a single episode of it….

We move to the current arc – chasing Sasuke. Naruto initially fights Sasuke on the roof of this hostipal supposedly to and even match. Why am I not convinced of this being a mark of Naruto’s level? Where was Sasuke’s sharingan? Where was his Lee taijutsu like speed? Excellent nerfs were placed on Sasuke to match him up with Naruto. In my opinion, even with Sasuke turned retarded – he is still stronger than Naruto by far. His choice to use Chidori against Rasengan – it shouldn’t have come down to that. Like what Kabuto did the first time, he could have evaded it and countered, especially if he has close to Lee’s speed, Naruto shouldn’t even come close to hitting him with that.

After the rescue team is assembled they quickly run into the fat earth dude. Here we see Naruto flex his absolutely unintelligent mind and not manage to not say anything at least SEMI useful. We also see him trying to use Rasengan with no logic reasoning on why/how it could possibly break open the prison. After they got out, while he and Kiba were going after the earth dude, again, Naruto just utterly lacks the ability to do any damage or use intelligence while attacking.

Back to analyzing:

That brings us to the current stage in the anime thus far. So far I’ve been trashing Naruto’s ability in battle both intellectually and physically. The couple of tricks he comes up with are lame and only are allowed to happen because he gets up from everything while no one else does. His physical ability only increases after he gets his ass kicked normally AND he is in complete desperation because of someone else dying or someone insulting him to the bone and telling him his dream will never come true. Unfortunately that leaves a big weakness for Naruto – those that just want to kick his ass for the sake of it. Perhaps this isn’t a complete weakness as if Naruto is slowly being life threatened, there can be enough time for Kyuubi to kick in, but if it all comes at once, its over.

What is Kishimoto trying to say with this series? At times it tries to be realistic, but then we have people like Naruto who have a “dream” and all of a sudden that is what’s right. The notion of strength they are trying to focus on is never giving up. Well, that’s all fine and dandy, but if you get killed by someone who would give up assuming they didn’t see a chance at winning, what does that mean? Not giving up just means you won’t give something away or throw it away. That does nothing to prevent someone taking something from you. Not giving up means nothing if the ability isn’t there.

Also, what annoys me with Naruto is his empty promises. “I wont lose to Neji!” -granted he didn’t lose, but he really should have. “I wont give up!” - even though he stood no chance of passing the test(written) through normal means. “Sasuke wont leave!” – oh wait…he did. “I’ll definitely bring Sasuke back” – can Naruto really stand up to the 4 nins when he showed nothing worthy against the weakest one(probably).? If you ask me currently his path doesn’t warrant the statement “I will become Hokage.” Rock Lee is in a much better position of accomplishing that task.

So you read my essay up until this point. Congratulations, I’m not done yet. So you ask “then why, Ebony, has Naruto never lost a real match up until this point?” Aside from his bullshit wins that had huge anime balancing involved or just didn’t make much sense, Naruto is always given the perfect circumstance for him to win the most important fights. Against Haku in the demonic ice mirrors – we see that when Sasuke isn’t in trouble Naruto up front, can’t to anything really effective. His strength then only came after he thought someone had died. It’s not even fathomable for Naruto to beat Haku if he were alone in there. In the Forest of Death – how else would Naruto have been effective if he wasn’t put just close enough on the brink of death for him to recover and Kyuubi’s chakra with him? Against Neji we have the same deal. Neji atttacked Naruto’s dream/philosophy for so long, while slowly beating the crap outta him. This was a perfect scenario for Naruto to get roused up enough to actually be effective in a fight. Against Gaara – what can I say? He was trying to kill Sakura. Man protects his woman. If this wasn’t the case, I’m sure nothing greater than the almighty Gamakichi would have come out of his summon and the fight would have been over when Shukaku came out. Similar deal happened with Kabuto calling him a loser during the Sannin fight. Naruto’s latest fight in the manga was probably the strongest Naruto’s ever been (with the exception of the out of control Kyuubified version in water country). How else could he fight to that level other than from his favorite rival telling him some things he finds absolutely wrong.

I could still perhaps be wrong about it somewhat and maybe what’s going to show Naruto’s increase in power is this 3 year jump that is coming in the manga. So far though, IMHO Naruto hasn’t gone anywhere significant since the beginning and anime that doesn’t progress is frankly wasting my time to watch. At the very least, the first 65 episodes were entertaining to watch, but since then there haven’t been any really spectacular fights to watch from the anime. The quality of the manga presentation remains the same and I’ll still keep reading it to see how the plot unfolds. Watching the anime has become a chore for me instead of a pleasure and has been for some time.

EDIT: Added a note at the top.
EDIT: Goodness I need to learn how to freggin type.
EDIT: OMGWTF I forgot the manga label...thankgoodness I haven't been banned yet.

Alright, since you were free to make your comment, so could I.
First point you made, you mentioned that there were no innovations with the chraracters and storylines. But if Shenon only published Naruto Gaiden first, you would probably thought Obito would be a "Naruto" type of people, but how did he end up? You were both generalizing and stereotyping.

Then you pointed out how the series annoyed you with Naruto's goals and his incompetency. If you really think about it, he is only a kid! My guess is you are way past Naruto's age, so the cognitive levels are different. And also, you have to include the psychological difficulties, becuase sometimes they are the main factors that forced human to cause dramatical reactions.


And from the third paragraph down............... are somewhat funny to me.
You expect too much from a kid. Even Albert Einstein was treated as a learning disable when he was little, so what is wrong with Naruto being a little slow?(If you don't get what I mean, it's ok. What I mean is that there could be genius that are fools when they were little, and young geniuses may not be the best . Trees take time to grow, bulidings take time to construct.)

Then towards to end, you were still complaining about the unrealistic of the story is, hell, if it's realistic, then it's not manga!

And who should care what you think? They like Naruto, just as you like your opinions.

[hunterx]

Let me respond to your post by agreeing with you that naruto is a lazy bum, but his character is consistent with his lazy ass. Naruto likes to power his way through everything including intelligence. The naruto way is not to give a shit and go all out.

He is like a car that can only operate in 5th gear, where as a good car like Neji knows how to perfect shift from 1st gear to 4th gear. But once naruto is in 5th gear no one can touch him.

Everything you said is true. He was lazy in school, he sucked in the chuunin exams and so on but the essence of his character is to overcome his faults just by will alone and you shouldn't fault him for it. If he was perfect there wouldn't be anything to tell.

[fightingdreamer88]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Also, someone said my logic was that someone should give up if they see no way of success. It isn't quite as bad as it sounds. First, I pulled that situation out of a hat with complete opposites just to illustrate the point better. But justifying it - think hard. Is there really anything you would do if you saw absolutely NO chance of success in? Most people dont play the lottery even though there is always a chance to win the jackpot - it's just so horribly small that it isn't worth it. Fights are a pretty calculated situation too. If you know your opponent, and know yourself, then you should be able to measure if you can win or not to some degree. Going further - examining Naruto and Neji - Naruto stood no chance against him. Naruto is not a long range fighter by any means, and sucks at close combat compared to the ones that actually consider themselves focused on that area. So how was he supposed to beat Neji? Of course he did so in his Kyuubi like state, but that wasn't quite what he knew from the start was going to happen. Maybe Naruto is just too stupid to know he doesn't have a chance which is why he jumps into situations like that.

I rather agree with you on this point. If you're screwed why bother?
But of course the agreement ends there. The fights Naruto gets in (however difficult or dauntless) aren't like the lottery. Sure there is money and unspeakable riches at stake, but how can you take something so vain and stack it up against the lives of your loved ones, and your integrity. In the Gaara vs Naruto debacle, Sakura was in serious danger. You can't expect the guy to just throw in the towel and walk away. Sure it's stupid to even try defeating a seemingly invincible opponent, but that's the concept of courage for you. It's knowing you're screwed over before you begin but doing it anyway because there are more important things at risk besides getting your arse to safety. Just one of the many themes Kishimoto-sensei is getting across. All this aside I say your building frustration for the character is quite justified.

[Kakashi_lover]

psst...everyone...it's just an anime!

[Uh_huh]

EbonySeraphim, my god, how long did that take you to write (you make me sick, ha)

Anyways, I didn't read everything you wrote down but basically ... Naruto is an overrated anime! Amen.

[-|(aGe-BuNsHiN-]

Originally Posted by Lexander

I fail to see the difference between a fanatic zealously defending Naruto and someone zealously bashing it, considering the one doing the bashing also watches Naruto and judging from his first post is more than knowledgeable enough to form an opinion about it.

And I find it hard to believe that you missed the point of his essay ... it just sounds too much like something you'd say to make the essay seem pointless.

Well I didnt miss the point of his essay but I find that the sharing of his ludicruously long essay is cliched. There have been countless people in here (including myself) who had started a new thread criticizing the short-comings of naruto.

In reality however, no one gives a shit about what I think as long as I disagree with them. If I say Naruto is the bomb, I will get showered with congratulations, while if I say Naruto sux ass, they will either flame me or give me a page long "reasonable" arguements to counter me.

What I'm really saying through all this is that there is no point in telling people why you don't like Naruto when the answer is obvious....at least thats my standing on this.

P.S.- I don't think ebony was zealously bashing it because he actually gave a well supported/debatable arguement in stead of saying "Naruto suxors....."

[nh1]

Originally Posted by -|(aGe-BuNsHiN-

In reality however, no one gives a shit about what I think as long as I disagree with them.

True

If I say Naruto is the bomb, I will get showered with congratulations, while if I say Naruto sux ass, they will either flame me or give me a page long "reasonable" arguements to counter me.

Obviously this is wrong since a bunch of people have posted and said that they agree.

P.S.- I don't think ebony was zealously bashing it because he actually gave a well supported/debatable arguement in stead of saying "Naruto suxors....."

It's mainstream not being mainstream nowadays so it's the same the other way around (People who disagree can make well supported/debatable arguments as well, instead of just saying "Naruto roxxors....").

[Chaoticabyss]

It's probably harder to like this story when your real life has never had anything happen that compares to what happens to Naruto, making it a little harder to believe... Soooooooooo............. let's get this party started.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

First of all, Naruto’s background and character concept really isn’t that new to me. He’s a kid with no parents, no friends in his past and that has given him some pains in the past. Further more he has been somewhat of an outcast because of the fact that Kyuubi is sealed inside of him and Kyuubi was the cause of many shinobi in Konoha. Naruto is also starts out as a dropout(really just a talentless, and ability-less) in school. He screws around in class and can’t do some of the basic ninjitsu and sucks at almost everything.

I agree. His situation ain't anything new, but I have to disagree with the talentless part. It always seems he's been portrayed as a pretty average(not talentless) student besides sucking at replications, abnormal stamina, and acting like a cage for a omnipotent demon. From what I've seen, it seems like two things make Naruto look so talentless; he croaks on written tests(quite understandable, I've gotten so nervous on some tests that it took me a third of the time limit sometimes to calm down and think clearly); he sucks at illusionary replications. The second part makes him a droupout because the finals at the academy was always testing if you could do that(how the hell did Rock Lee pass if he couldn't do that stuff at all then? )..

[QUOTE=EbonySeraphim]Perhaps the biggest reason why Naruto annoys me is his drive to become stronger. He says he is gonna be a Hokage and is going to work really hard at it, but what work have we seen him put in thus far? He screwed around in school all the freggin time, and only trains when teachers have a new jutsu to teach him formally. What a lamer. He should really be trying to improve the jutsu he already knows because he almost never uses them correctly (the few he does), or he could be practicing general ninja arts like throwing weapons, taijutsu, and speed – traditional training like what Rock Lee does. Naruto’s shallow pursuit for power is to take the quickest way there through “uber 1337 jutsu” that he really shouldn’t be learning to become truly strong. If he can never use those jutsu properly, then he probably can fight people on his level with it, and is even further disadvantaged when using it against stronger people who exploit it in some way. You can also tell his impatience during the beginning of his trip with Jiraiya to get Tsunade when Naruto wanted him to hurry up and teach him and ultra-jutsu. In my opinion, Jiraiya teaching Naruto Rasengan was a mistake. He should still force Naruto to become better overall. Gamabunta summon was for Naruto’s protection – Rasengan was not. What sickens me about this is that they anime beefs up Naruto as if he really is strong, and really does work hard when clearly he puts average effort at the very best into what he does, has no talent, and still wins. At the same time, hard workers like Rock Lee lose, geniuses (and hard working too if you ask me) like Neji, and monsters like Gaara lose to him – All while Naruto is neither a genius nor hard worker. He’s just a “boy with a dream” with a “spirit that never dies.” That’s a very bad message to send to younger audiences as there are only two types of people that are successful in this world (maybe three or four). There are those that are geniuses, and those that word hard. One or the other will determine your success in life more than likely. It is also SLIGHTLY possible that luck will do it. The last possibility is inheriting success (wealth and status). As I said before, Naruto is not hard working and not a genius. He is possibly lucky, and perhaps you could call him an inheritor of success (Kyuubi). But luck and inheritance isn’t something people can strive to be/have. It just doesn’t work because luck is extremely rare, and inheritance is out of anyone’s control. Then who is Naruto inspiration for? Those with dreams with no talent to back it up, and not willing to put the real effort to work hard for it? No sympathies from me from that group. I don’t think there is anyone in the world that would support someone in such a group so when they is Naruto even a liked character?[quote] Well, you could call it luck, but to me it's more like unharnessed skill. It's like a warm-up before his real ability comes out, but in this case it's more like he can't control that real ability to full extent yet. If you do hate this luck/inheritance, then in a way, you hate most of the characters in this whole anime. All of the characters we know anything about have talents passed on from their family. Their inheritance. Only thing different is that everyone else has a much greater limit under full control, while Naruto only seems great when under pressure.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

In the first episode, Naruto follows the advice of a corrupted Chuunin, and steals a forbidden scroll in the village to learn some jutsu and learns the holy Kage Bunshin no utsu in a few hours. First of all, how can this talentless boy learn a jutsu more advanced than the simple stuff he’s supposed to be doing in school in a few hours? If he really is that talented, then it shows how much of a dropout he is in school being that he doesn’t put any effort at all into it. Further more in the first episode Naruto beats a Chuunin, as much of a crappy Chuunin he may have been, Naruto wasn’t even a genin at this point, and was at the lowest end of the academy. Perhaps the fight was anime balanced, and I let it slide in my mind for the first episode.

Agree'd. If he wanted to become a genin so much, why didn't he just try real hard to learn the regular easy technique after the first or second time he failed the same exact test?

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

As Naruto makes it on the same team as Sakura and Sasuke, they play the bell game with Kakashi, further showing how much is he a dropout. You see him go after Kakashi and make every bad possible decision. It’s Naruto’s fault again when Sasuke and Sakura give him food, and in doing so they all should have failed. Failure once because Naruto sucks, and twice because Naruto couldn’t be strong-willed enough to not let his teammates fail and beg for food. To redeem his character, we have the weak notion of “teamwork” presented here. It’s all good that they are trying to preach about something good, but they broke a rule, during a test. To say “they were supposed to break it” was a retarded lesson/thing to teach. Obviously they weren’t allowed to break the rules under the 1st Chuunin Exam, when those who broke the rules failed automatically. In my opinion, the first “fix” (teamwork) was the lame thing that was put there to take the focus of Naruto’s inherent crappiness.

Didn't really seem like a fix, but instead the whole test was for teamwork like it said. Though, I guess it's more of your own opinion on how you look at it. It's confusing, especially in some of those quick flashbacks with the Third Hokage teaching Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade. Jiraiya tied up on the pole and Oro and Tsu holding bells... makes me wonder that if it is a test of teamwork, how'd that work out back then? (guess that puts emphasis on the fact tsu, oro, jir all split up and left konoha since they didn't have teamwork from the very beginning, but this discussion is about Naruto...)

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Move to example, we look at the Water Country arc when Sasuke and Naruto fight Haku. In the beginning of this arc, when the 2 Chuunins attacked, Naruto’s freeze up showed his crappieness again. At this point though, I wasn’t bothered because it was allowing more room for improvement. The story did a decent job in showing Naruto getting stronger later though, as he got pretty decent chakra control and matched Sasuke in this area. In doing so they completely trashed Sakura’s usefulness though. Anyways, move to the demonic mirror right. So Naruto was supposed to be better right? NOT. The dumbass jumps in the mirror and almost got his teammate killed. Good job with the teamwork there. Sasuke would have had a lot more time to live without having to defend Naruto and stood more of a chance at winning the fight – through normal means and ability. So after Sasuke is creamed, and Naruto gets up, we get presented with this ever-so-present theme of the main character’s wildcard. Some battle rage mode that makes him go crazy and kick everyone’s ass – that is Kyuubi in this case. Obviously Naruto wins the fight easily as this element in any anime is pretty much unbeatable/undefeated. The issue here is that Naruto isn’t in control of it when it happens and he can’t draw upon that strength at will. I get to that more later though. Perhaps this was still too early for Naruto to show major applicable improvement being that it was early in the anime and they had to have Naruto go crazy to win the fight. Next slide -

They had about 5-7 missions before they took this mission I think. Looking at the mission we saw of them catching that cat, I bet they did all of those in one week(they were all probably that easy, meaning the only thing slowing them down from doing more missions of that calibur was availibility)... From my knowledge, that was his second battle with any Ninja ever(three if you include those water chuuin that he just froze up on). Do you really expect Naruto to become smarter so fast? All flashbacks show that before Naruto was a genin, he just fooled around, never had a real fight. In my opinion, it was a little bit messed up that Sasuke was able to fight so instinctively when those water chuuin appeared, even if he was that year's genius.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

So water country is over, and we move to the chuunin exam – where the first part is a written test. Seems like no teamwork is allowed here – and this time it’s for real because anyone who tries to cheat fails. Really now? When are the rules supposed to be followed? Only when the anime makers see it benefiting Naruto? Perhaps. So, in this exam the conditions were not to cheat, and if anyone failed(got a zero) they could never take the chuunin exam ever again in addition to failing. Also, when the tenth question was presented, that question alone was the deciding factor. Obviously, Naruto is the weakest point on the team, and his lack of education and talent would actually put him in danger of getting a zero, and thus screwing over Sasuke and Sakura forever. Naruto being so “determined” and strong-willed stuck through this exam and didn’t back down. That was EXTREMELY stupid of him being that he had NOTHING answered thus far and stood little chance of knowing the answer to the final question. Why would someone even put their teammates in such a position/risk when he didn’t know he was going to pass in the way he did? Of course they sugar-coated what Naruto did as courage that a chuunin should have courage when leading a team on a mission, but one still has to look at reality in situations and not do what’s dumb. The difference between a mission and the exam, is that the exam could be backed down from without penalty. Oh sure, you have to wait next year for the chuunin exam – whatever. Young people still have a lot of years left in them. Be smart with it, not irrational. Just a small step back – before they even started that part, Rock Lee owned Naruto like he was his bitch. Of course he did so to Sasuke too at the time. But at least he could somewhat keep up with what was going on and how he got owned.

Actually it was only the tenth question, that if you got wrong, you, and you alone, would never be able to become a chuuin. Though it might've been that you could never take the chuuin exam again. If it was the former, your teammates could still become chuuin, just you couldn't, latter then your whole team would be stuck as genins. (I'm pretty sure it was former though)... The test was a test of two things: Your determination and your skill at getting info without being spotted. The test didn't have a thing to do with your intelligence, even though it was presented like it was.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Move to Forest of Death – Supposedly this is where Naruto was shining, and Sasuke was the scaredy cat. IMHO Sasuke did the right thing. He was good enough to know that Orochimaru(without knowing his true identity) was way over his/their level and that he would die fighting someone like that. The only reason he didn’t(and the rest of the team) die is because Orochiimaru didn’t want to do that – of course Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke don’t know this. For all they know, Orochimaru was trying to kill them to take the scroll away. As before, this is sugarcoated with some notion of courage and facing death when you need to. Once again – if it’s a life or death situation, you should not fight if you don’t stand a chance unless you can’t back down. Team 7 could have backed down, but Naruto forced the team to fight a battle that he knew no way of winning. Of course, Naruto shone a bit here due to his anime character “wildcard” that would never let him completely lose(die). Sasuke was completely right when he said “nothing changed” when Naruto shows up. I guess this is a slight improvement over Naruto jumping in the Demonic Ice Mirrors from Haku where he made the situation worse by showing up.

The only thing that determined that whole situation was wether or not Orochimaru wanted them dead at that moment or not. Sure, it would be sensible to run if you knew you could escape versus an opponent you stand less than 0% chance against, but in this story's world of ninjas, I doubt most the time, even when the enemy gets what they want, they'll let you live. You could go off, give warnings, get some team going to get back what was lost, or tell anything you know about that enemy's techniques(which Kakashi has told Naruto before that you want to keep your techniques a secret and use them without your enemy's notice if you want to win)... In my opinion, Naruto's choice was better. He understood that there was a good chance, even if the enemy got what he wanted, they would still be in life threatening danger, one that isn't possible to run away from so easily unless someone sacrifices themself so the others could escape.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Next moment of improvement for Naruto was towards the end of the Forest of Death and he fought the 3 clone/gas/ink or whatever dudes. Supposedly he thought of a brilliant plan and allowed his team to rest, but it was far from a calculated thing. Naruto does have crazy chakra capacity, but he wasn’t conscious of what his limits were and just did whatever. I guess I’ll let Naruto have this moment though. He at least did demonstrate that he has a monster chakra capacity and stamina. No skill improvement though – none at all.

agree'd

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Fight with Kiba – skill wise, Kiba > Naruto. The whole match, you see Naruto get his ass kicked by Kiba. Naruto doesn’t even come close in skill to touching Kiba except with stupid attacks don’t that mean anything (biting). This fight really should have been Naruto’s loss, but they make him magically get from every attack Kiba throws at him, even his major ones. It’s pretty clear that Kiba is over his level as Naruto doesn’t come close to having a real defense against Kiba’s attacks, and even all of the observers except – *gasp* - the people that know the real Naruto. So yeah, Naruto delivers one grand combo, and Kiba is out cold after taking no real damage before then. That was not a convincing or satisfying victory. Watching fights like that are so horribly “anime balanced” that it disgusts me to watch it.

It just seems like Naruto has so much strength in the simple meaning of being able to exert a lot of force, but doesn't have the greatest ability to set his enemy up to get hit by it. Even if he does have far greater strength than others his age without his trump card, it seems a little absurd that Kiba would fall in one hit. Though, I guess you could say that both Kiba and Naruto were tired from the journey in the forest, making there capacity to handle attacks much less(but Naruto has the energizer nine-tailed fox within him... just keeps going and going)... Though, to be honest, I agree with you on this point. The idea I said just seems a little too far out there from what's presented in the story to make perfect sense. After all, Kiba had used the soldier pill, and from the flashbacks, it seems like Kiba, Hinata, and Shino had their two scrolls easily without using too much energy so he shouldn't have been exhausted enough to knock out in one hit. (Though, Sasuke defeated his guy in that same combo alone too, I think... Sasuke's guy was probably a chuuin at least already and Sasuke was exhausted + some chakra drained + cursed seal affecting him... if that combo could take that guy out, Kiba probably couldn't handle it too well too... I'm like having my own debate with myself here... )

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

First of all, as the fight with Kiba, we still see that Naruto sucks when it gets down to a normal fight and is as much of a loser everyone says he is. He doesn’t come close to putting a scratch on Neji. Even at the moment when it seemed he was close because he used his wits a bit for once, he was still a world away in ability as Neji still dodged the attack. Perhaps this fight showed slight improvement as Naruto did manage to dodge a rather serious attack from Neji aimed at his tenketsu. But still, the different was greatly shown, as Naruto had nothing to do in the face of kaiten. And he showed the lack of ability to think his way out the situation such as using long range attacks continuously – even though Naruto probably isn’t skilled enough force Neji to use kaiten against his long range attacks. Then we see Naruto get nailed by Hakke Rokujuuyonshou (Divination Circle - 64 hands). Not only did Naruto not come close to defending it, but he lacked the ability to realize the presence of the Divination Circle and know to try to get out of it. It is invisible, but the concept of a fighters range is universal – you gotta realize that in a certain range, you are venerable to certain attacks. If you can’t defend them, then stay out of it as much as possible. But of course, Naruto has to get up from every attack as any resilient main character would do. Then Naruto get’s his “final wind” and willingly draws upon Kyuubi’s chakra, which I thought was a good step in showing improvement from him. I wasn’t fully convinced of his victory though as they still only showed Naruto fighting equal to Neji’s level, and Neji was knocked out from only taking two hits – one was partially reflected by Kaiten, and the other was a normal uppercut from Naruto. That isn’t enough if you ask me to make him all beat up after what Naruto had been through. I still enjoyed the fight though as Naruto took this step up.

Well, the Kyuubi has immense chakra, and from our understand, chakra is able to increase your speed by exerting more force from your steps, possibly speed up your leg movement. So, it might be that he put most of the remaing Kyuubi chakra that was lent to him in his punch, which probably was one heck of a punch then. Neji wasn't even knocked out from that, just made unfit to fight.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

But then, a few episodes later, at the start of the invasion – Naruto is woken up Sakura. We see a ninja appear behind him, and for a moment he was a gonner as he was completely frozen AGAIN. Seriously, wtf just happened to the step up he had a few episodes earlier? Naruto’s ability just seemingly took a step up, and right after he shows his lack of ability in a real situation. Next fight is against Gaara turning demon:

Naruto has just woken up, he was actually asking what the hell was going on right that second the ninja appears and startles him. First, he's not fully awake mind and body so even if he understood the situation, he probably couldn't react too well. It takes me a good 30 minutes to an hour to wake up fully after I get up out of a bed, Might be different for you I guess. Second, he didn't know what was going on, and in that sleepy state, he might've even concluded he was just dreaming of some fight(I could think of too many stupid things I thought were happening/happened because I was half asleep or had just woken up)

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

So this fight I don’t really give too much credit towards Naruto. His Nisen Redan move was quite delicious, but was nothing more than a brute force move well placed against someone so large and unable to move. And the reason he wasn’t able to move, was pure luck in my opinion. It was quite impressive to see Naruto at least use a generally good tactic by attaching an explosive note to a kunai, but the effect was luck. Gamabunta summon did come at a rather desperate time, I would have been more satisfied if they animated/realized it better in the anime though. From here on out, Naruto is fighting a type of battle that is one only the main character in a series can take part in. From here on out, I wouldn’t really call it Naruto’s strength too much as Gamabunta was summoned and doing most of the fighting at this point. Though at the end, he did draw on some of Kyuubi’s chakra inside him to keep going. In the end, this fight wasn’t really a show of how much stronger Naruto is than the rest of his peers, but rather the result of a single jutsu he learned, and his wildcard in the end.

Ah, well... I have to agree it would be more entertaining if they made it seem more desparate before he summoned Gamabunta or whatever, but I think it was better that way. Sure his life was threatened at that point, but it was Sakura's life that mattered to Naruto, and from the looks of it, he was able to summon Gamabunta with his own chakra because of that, not with the Kyuubi's. That theme gets said clearly quite a few times. "A ninja's true strength manifests when they're protecting someone important"... maybe not exactly what was said, but you get the gist of it. Also, you can't deny they have to show his summon being used to its full at some point...

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Next step we get Naruto when he was learning Rasengan from Jiraiya. This is another crazy high level jutsu that if Naruto uses against people on his level, they are pretty sure to not get up if they are hit by it. Naruto learning this jutsu, was not proof of his skill/improvement in my opinion. If you ask me, the reason why lower level ninjas like them don’t learn high level jutsu is because they probably won’t use it effectively and would end up wasting their chakra trying to do such. The chakra control Naruto exercised for this jutsu is unique to only it and is something anyone is physically able to do. Naruto’s training didn’t show much ability either has every step of the way he had to get help and figuring out what to do. On top of that he demonstrated a lack ff ability in doing the justu with one hand as he had to use two hands. Of course this was cleverly sugarcoated by Jiraiya calling him “clever” for doing so. I don’t know about other people, but I wouldn’t think someone was clever if they “figured” out how to do something with two hands that I showed them I could do with one.

Well, I agree with most of it but... The Fourth took three years to learn it, so it is actually clever Naruto can do it in two months, but with one handicap(needing to make a shadow replication)... I agree that it shows that Naruto hasn't really improved too much, but he has improved if he was able to come up with the idea of it all without having to be told exactly what to do. Sure, he may not have the whole feel for how to do it perfectly with just one hand, but it's quite a improvement to be able to do something in two months with three hands that the greatest Hokage took three years to perfect in one hand.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Anyways, so Itachi comes to town and Naruto gets smocked yet again – supposedly calling Kyuubi’s chakra at will. Too bad it was stripped away by Kisame because Naruto is too slow at doing it. I guess this doesn’t count for much being that Kisame and Itachi are way over his level. If Kishimoto actually had Naruto inflict damage at this stage, then Naruto would have to have taken a huge step up in his fighting ability, which is clearly not shown.

Agree'd, though I'm not sure what was the point of brining this time out in the open. Normally when you're making a persuasive arguement, you don't bring out the info that goes against what you're saying.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Naruto vs Kabuto – Come on now. This whole fight was Naruto getting his ass kicked like every other fight. His opponent was way over his level and he shouldn’t have been able to hit anything. But of course we have Naruto’s dreams being attacked, such that he is pissed off to the utter point of desperation and always getting up from anything the enemy threw at him, we have Naruto pulling off a lucky Rasengan. I really wonder how Naruto gets up from everything that no one else does. Shizune was out like a light from one attack from Kabuto. Perhaps Kabuto was just taking Naruto too lightly and Shinuze he gave a much more serious attack. Either way, it gave Naruto an opportunity he wouldn’t have if his opponent was actually taking him seriously. Even despite this, the way Naruto connected his Rasengan wasn’t convincing at all for me. First of all, his left arm vs Kabuto’s right. Kabuto also being much older than he is and on a much higher level, he should have been able to throw someone like Naruto away using the same hand assuming Kabuto is really on Kakakshi’s level. Also, he still had a left hand completely free to do whatever he wanted defensively or offensively. In the end, Naruto still lost as Kabuto already had a defense planned, but in my opinion, the move shouldn’t have even connected.

We've learned that Naruto has immense strength(physical), though maybe not controlled too well, can't deny it's there. We don't know too much about Kabuto, but I bet he's more of a weak person physically and his stamina limit is probably pretty low. Why do I think that? He's learned medical jutsu. That requires immense control and understanding of chakra. Most ninjas are strong in one area while weak in one or two others(there are exceptions... Sannin, Hokages). If he's so skilled in that, I bet his strength physically isn't so great. After all, he was attacking with knife like medical jutsu techniques against Tsunade. It seems possible that Naruto could've held Kabuto, but I think Kabuto should've just attacked while Naruto was getting ready. That's the only thing that bothers me there.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Skipping all of the anime filler that occurred…cuz I didn’t watch a single episode of it….

It was crap in my opinion, you didn't miss out on anything good...

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

We move to the current arc – chasing Sasuke. Naruto initially fights Sasuke on the roof of this hostipal supposedly to and even match. Why am I not convinced of this being a mark of Naruto’s level? Where was Sasuke’s sharingan? Where was his Lee taijutsu like speed? Excellent nerfs were placed on Sasuke to match him up with Naruto. In my opinion, even with Sasuke turned retarded – he is still stronger than Naruto by far. His choice to use Chidori against Rasengan – it shouldn’t have come down to that. Like what Kabuto did the first time, he could have evaded it and countered, especially if he has close to Lee’s speed, Naruto shouldn’t even come close to hitting him with that.

For the Lee's speed thing, can't say that's too strong of an arguement. It's hard to tell who's faster because we can only compare their speeds to speeds of others they've fought before. Sasuke's speed > Shield of Sand speed, but where does that place Naruto? This match between Naruto and Sasuke is the only time we have a good comparison of Naruto and Sasuke's speed, which even now we're not 100% sure if it was showing them in slow motion at full speed, or just holding back while examining their opponent. If they were both going all out, it does actually show Naruto's improvement to get so close to Sasuke's level... As for the no sharingan part... At the start of the fight, Sasuke said they weren't even, so he didn't wear the head protector. This probably is why he probably didn't use sharingan. It shows Naruto has improved as far as Sasuke without sharingan, but Naruto didn't use Kyuubi yet for that matter, so Naruto has improved quite a bit if you ask me.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

After the rescue team is assembled they quickly run into the fat earth dude. Here we see Naruto flex his absolutely unintelligent mind and not manage to not say anything at least SEMI useful. We also see him trying to use Rasengan with no logic reasoning on why/how it could possibly break open the prison. After they got out, while he and Kiba were going after the earth dude, again, Naruto just utterly lacks the ability to do any damage or use intelligence while attacking.

Yeah, he isn't one to think before acting... there's people like that, but he usually does come out with some crude strategy halfway through the battle... if he was the one to fight that battle that's probably what would've happen.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

<The rest that EbonySeraphim has written>

Yeah, if Naruto was just targetted to be killed instantly, he'd be gone already, but luck always falls in his favor. Zabuza(sp?), he was only fighting a replication(one tenth the strength of normal) and Zabuza(sp?) was having too much fun to kill them instantly. Haku wouldn't have killed Sasuke or Naruto even if it was the only way for him to live. Gaara actually wasn't too strong until whatever that beast inside him was released, which was equalled out with Naruto's summon. Itachi and that weird guy were trying to capture Naruto for the time, not kill, so he wasn't going to die yet even without Jiraiya there. Kabuto didn't seem to attempt to kill anyone until Naruto had him in that hold with the Rasengan, which the Kyuubi + Tsunade saw to him living. Orochimaru didn't want Naruto dead the first encounter, and the second encounter Jiraiya and Tsunade kept him busy. Kakashi prevented Sasuke and Naruto's match going to the end which probably would've ended in one or the other's death. What I'm saying, is so far, Naruto has been lucky to not run into an opponent that was willing to wanted to kill him as fast as possibly and was skilled enough to do that. Sure, you can look at this as a bad thing, depending on luck so much, but for me I like it even more since I depend on luck a lot...

It seems like what's being said in this anime, is to protect people whom are important to you and to protect your dreams. Strive to live for those you care about and for your dreams. It's not really a never give up thing... As for the empty promises you say Naruto makes, can't deny he had no way of being sure of what he was promising and they were quite empty. However, Naruto doesn't like to see others worried or distressed. Even if he couldn't possibly be hold those promises without a doubt, he made them to give courage and strength to others, and at the same time to give himself another reason to be strong. It's just the kind of person Naruto is.

Perfect situation for Naruto to win again and again... well, I can sum that up in a few words. Welcome to the world of anime. The unbelievable; the unprobable; the impossible. They're all factors of most animes.

Don't mistake me for someone that loves everything in Naruto. I've agreed with some of the points you've made and said that, and I even have a few small details I could add, but I've left out since I'm standing on the Pro-Naruto side in this discussion. It's just that I can't get nearly enough hate or dislike of Naruto to overpower my like of him, lose interest in the anime/manga/story/Naruto himself, or have this urge to kill Naruto(or at least see him killed)...

[FearTheMullet]

Allrigty, I didn't bother reading this whole thread, but man; You are a looser. Who and why would you complain about an anime/manga so much? It's a fucking cartoon you moron. If you don't like it no ones forcing you to watch it, why would you waste your time posting it here. In the long run Kishimoto, and whatever animation studio is animating this won't give a shit. This whole thread was stupid. Why would you complain about Naruto, and how he does everything in a certain pattren when the series is NARUTO. Are you special abled?

Every freaking story has a pattern to events. I'm sure all the annoying brats who complain about the similarities between DBZ and Naruto had probabbly at one point started watching DBZ, thought "Oh holy crap what a sweet anime" then as the episodes moved on, like any free-loading asshole complained it wasnt up to standard. What standard!? You're watching free fansubs asshole! There is no standard! Your opinion on the topic doesn't matter at all because you don't pay for it!

I know my post is harsh, and some type of punitive action will be taken against me/it, but, it had to be said.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by FearTheMullet

Allrigty, I didn't bother reading this whole thread, but man; You are a looser. Who and why would you complain about an anime/manga so much? It's a fucking cartoon you moron. If you don't like it no ones forcing you to watch it, why would you waste your time posting it here. In the long run Kishimoto, and whatever animation studio is animating this won't give a shit. This whole thread was stupid. Why would you complain about Naruto, and how he does everything in a certain pattren when the series is NARUTO. Are you special abled?

Every freaking story has a pattern to events. I'm sure all the annoying brats who complain about the similarities between DBZ and Naruto had probabbly at one point started watching DBZ, thought "Oh holy crap what a sweet anime" then as the episodes moved on, like any free-loading asshole complained it wasnt up to standard. What standard!? You're watching free fansubs asshole! There is no standard! Your opinion on the topic doesn't matter at all because you don't pay for it!

I know my post is harsh, and some type of punitive action will be taken against me/it, but, it had to be said.

Your post might be just a tad harsher than others', but nothing that other people hadn't already said. At least it wasn't as bad as Cotaa, whose reply was essentially that he couldn't be bothered to read it.

People over-analyze this series all the time (myself included). IMHO, that's what makes this forum so enjoyable. Just look at the Neji/Rasengan thread involving atomic bonding, vaccum/pressure, and compression of energy.

The Byakugan/Sharingan thread where we analyze dominant/recessive traits.

I too am losing interest in the series, and I expect I'm not alone. Right now, in the episode thread, people are sh*tting all over the concept of super-pills and super-seals that exponentially increase strength. The new message is clear - power > skill. A far cry from the first major arc in which Zabuza (a character almost universally seen to be seen as inferior to Kakashi) manages to beat Kakashi by outsmarting him (Water trap bubble) and two Genins (VASTLY inferior) free their mentor by outsmarting the experienced Mist ninja. Shikamaru beats Temari by out-thinking her. What happened to that series? Now, we get a series of seals making you 5x stronger, a pill that makes you 10x stronger, a new seal that makes you 20x stronger...

[brassmonkey]

Originally Posted by raikage

Your post might be just a tad harsher than others', but nothing that other people hadn't already said. At least it wasn't as bad as Cotaa, whose reply was essentially that he couldn't be bothered to read it.

People over-analyze this series all the time (myself included). IMHO, that's what makes this forum so enjoyable. Just look at the Neji/Rasengan thread involving atomic bonding, vaccum/pressure, and compression of energy.

The Byakugan/Sharingan thread where we analyze dominant/recessive traits.

I too am losing interest in the series, and I expect I'm not alone. Right now, in the episode thread, people are sh*tting all over the concept of super-pills and super-seals that exponentially increase strength. The new message is clear - power > skill. A far cry from the first major arc in which Zabuza (a character almost universally seen to be seen as inferior to Kakashi) manages to beat Kakashi by outsmarting him (Water trap bubble) and two Genins (VASTLY inferior) free their mentor by outsmarting the experienced Mist ninja. Shikamaru beats Temari by out-thinking her. What happened to that series? Now, we get a series of seals making you 5x stronger, a pill that makes you 10x stronger, a new seal that makes you 20x stronger...

yea.. i like shikamaru's battle.. later when he battles the sound's 4, it will be awesome!!

[Anko Plushy]

grrrrrrrrr *tackles person that created thread* NARUTO IS ADORBILE SO DON'T INSULT HIM!!! hmph! meanie! *huggles Naruto plushy* He's the stupidest most immature most adorible character in the whole series! And one of the most kick ass when things get tough...

[Shadamehr]

I dunno, sure, some battles boil down to using a new pill/seal level/demon level to get stronger. But some battles revolve around having a style that beats your opponent's style, or outsmarting them. It would be just as hackneyed if EVERY battle came down to outwitting an otherwise vastly superior opponent. The reminder that power is important too seems welcome to me.

Let's look at the last 6 battles:

Chouji vs Jiroubu: Battle of the powerups.

Neji vs. Kidoumaru: Neji beats a superior opponent by determination and exploitation of a weakness in his technique.

Kiba vs. Sakon: Kiba stalls a vastly superior opponent by exploiting a weakness in his primary technique, and then outsmarting him as he ran away. He thus wears away enough of his chakra for Sakon to get his ass kicked when reinforcements arrived.

Shikamaru vs. Tayuya: Shikamaru stays competitive with and stalls a vastly superior opponent by outsmarting her. She is then beaten by Temari, who is also probably vastly inferior, but wins because her style is a weakness for Tayuya's style.

Gaara/Lee vs Iforgethisname: Victory by illness.

Naruto vs Sasuke: battle of the powerups

That's only 2 of six that are all about power levels....not too bad for a manga.

[brassmonkey]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

I dunno, sure, some battles boil down to using a new pill/seal level/demon level to get stronger. But some battles revolve around having a style that beats your opponent's style, or outsmarting them. It would be just as hackneyed if EVERY battle came down to outwitting an otherwise vastly superior opponent. The reminder that power is important too seems welcome to me.

Let's look at the last 6 battles:

Chouji vs Jiroubu: Battle of the powerups.

Neji vs. Kidoumaru: Neji beats a superior opponent by determination and exploitation of a weakness in his technique.

Kiba vs. Sakon: Kiba stalls a vastly superior opponent by exploiting a weakness in his primary technique, and then outsmarting him as he ran away. He thus wears away enough of his chakra for Sakon to get his ass kicked when reinforcements arrived.

Shikamaru vs. Tayuya: Shikamaru stays competitive with and stalls a vastly superior opponent by outsmarting her. She is then beaten by Temari, who is also probably vastly inferior, but wins because her style is a weakness for Tayuya's style.

Gaara/Lee vs Iforgethisname: Victory by illness.

Naruto vs Sasuke: battle of the powerups

That's only 2 of six that are all about power levels....not too bad for a manga.

gaara/lee vs kimimaru, was really retarded.. he would hv pwned their asses, but he died because time ran out for him.. rock lee was funny with the drunken fist though.. which originated from china.

my fav match in the manga is definitely shikamaru.. although his skills sucks to the core

[EbonySeraphim]

Yare yare. Too much stuff to reply to, but I'll leave a general word for a lot of people that have been screaming this to me:

"Naruto is only 12 years old!!!" - I don't give a damn. He is also an anime character where expectations are just a bit higher than the real world. You could even compare him to his peers (Sasuke and Shikamaru) in his world who are also his age and are far more competent (and in Shika's case especially - mature). Just about everyone else except Naruto shows much more maturity and level-headedness. I also repeat - he is an anime character where expectations from him are a lot higher. If they feel this 12 year old can be out on the battlefield in life or death situations, then he better be damn mature enough to handle himself appropriately when a(and his) life and mission is on the line. Trying to defend him because of his age is completely baseless, so enough with it.

[Animizzle]

Originally Posted by raikage

Your post might be just a tad harsher than others', but nothing that other people hadn't already said. At least it wasn't as bad as Cotaa, whose reply was essentially that he couldn't be bothered to read it.

People over-analyze this series all the time (myself included). IMHO, that's what makes this forum so enjoyable. Just look at the Neji/Rasengan thread involving atomic bonding, vaccum/pressure, and compression of energy.

The Byakugan/Sharingan thread where we analyze dominant/recessive traits.

I too am losing interest in the series, and I expect I'm not alone. Right now, in the episode thread, people are sh*tting all over the concept of super-pills and super-seals that exponentially increase strength. The new message is clear - power > skill. A far cry from the first major arc in which Zabuza (a character almost universally seen to be seen as inferior to Kakashi) manages to beat Kakashi by outsmarting him (Water trap bubble) and two Genins (VASTLY inferior) free their mentor by outsmarting the experienced Mist ninja. Shikamaru beats Temari by out-thinking her. What happened to that series? Now, we get a series of seals making you 5x stronger, a pill that makes you 10x stronger, a new seal that makes you 20x stronger...

Absolutely, You not alone. I complained about the Sasuke rescue arc way back.
People like Kimmimaro and the CS2 completely disrupts the series Balance, a balance which was carefully introduced and was rather perfect I might add.

Also the fact that these genins posses ludicrious powers doesn't help.

It a shame really, and I can only hope that what little we have seen in the Gaiden, in which raw power plays a minor part and stealth and swift action does. Will continue in the main story when the gaiden ends.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

I dunno, sure, some battles boil down to using a new pill/seal level/demon level to get stronger. But some battles revolve around having a style that beats your opponent's style, or outsmarting them. It would be just as hackneyed if EVERY battle came down to outwitting an otherwise vastly superior opponent. The reminder that power is important too seems welcome to me.

Let's look at the last 6 battles:

Chouji vs Jiroubu: Battle of the powerups.

Neji vs. Kidoumaru: Neji beats a superior opponent by determination and exploitation of a weakness in his technique.

Kiba vs. Sakon: Kiba stalls a vastly superior opponent by exploiting a weakness in his primary technique, and then outsmarting him as he ran away. He thus wears away enough of his chakra for Sakon to get his ass kicked when reinforcements arrived.

Shikamaru vs. Tayuya: Shikamaru stays competitive with and stalls a vastly superior opponent by outsmarting her. She is then beaten by Temari, who is also probably vastly inferior, but wins because her style is a weakness for Tayuya's style.

Gaara/Lee vs Iforgethisname: Victory by illness.

Naruto vs Sasuke: battle of the powerups

That's only 2 of six that are all about power levels....not too bad for a manga.

Mm. I disagree. Shikamaru & Kiba stalling until help arrives - especially since they weren't expecting help - not really a big Win for the Leaf ninjas.

I can't possibly think of how Temari used a good amount of brainpower in defeating Tayuya, what with the Super-wind attack and the summon.

Same with Kankurou - one quick capture and it was all over...

Gaara most definitely did not favor brains over power in his battle with Kimimaro.

[monir]

BOOO.. BOOO to the few folks who quoted Ebony's entire post unnecessarily so they could write couple of l33t sentences in response. Some of the replies are harsh indeed without any constructive counter argument. Then again, it is very difficult to make sensible counter argument in two to three sentences. Those few responses have provided the glimpse of evolution, yes I am talking about of the infamous "power-up", from extreme Naruto fanatics to Narutards. So I will conclude my post with another round of BOOOOOOOOOOOO BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

P.S. Nice reply Chaoticabyss. + rep..

[_Sin_]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

"Naruto is only 12 years old!!!" - I don't give a damn. He is also an anime character where expectations are just a bit higher than the real world. You could even compare him to his peers (Sasuke and Shikamaru) in his world who are also his age and are far more competent (and in Shika's case especially - mature). Just about everyone else except Naruto shows much more maturity and level-headedness. I also repeat - he is an anime character where expectations from him are a lot higher. If they feel this 12 year old can be out on the battlefield in life or death situations, then he better be damn mature enough to handle himself appropriately when a(and his) life and mission is on the line. Trying to defend him because of his age is completely baseless, so enough with it.

Then you should try countering the arguments of other people who brought up a lot of different things than the "Naruto is only 12 years old!!!" argument

[Zek]

Lately it seems like Shikamaru alone embodies the intelligent ninja fights, and everybody else just takes their biggest powers and butts heads. I agree that it's getting a little tiresome. This gaiden does seem to be more on the right path, and I truly hope that Kishimoto has gotten it all out of his system after the Chase Sasuke arc.