2013-10-06, 15:11 | Link #33101 |
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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I really liked that idea. And in Erika's dress there is a golden eagle
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It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph. And if you think about it you can even make a link between erika's past and ange. In the case of Beatrice her link with Ronove and Virgilia is the same as Yasu with Genji and Kumasawa. While Erika and her boyfriend are similar to Ange and Eva. In the confront between Erika and Dlanor, Erika showed a lot of proofs that her boyfriend didn't love her as probably there was many things for Ange to think that Eva didn't love her. But Dlanor said that even so there was some hints that could prove it but she just choose to don't believe in that, in the same way as ange who coudn't believe in Eva's love for her. And because of the fact that the two of them were "betrayed" they became disproved of love. You can think about this same thing but in the place of Eva's love for Ange you interpret as the Eva culprit theory, in the way that there was many things to prove that eva was the culprit but every thing that could prove Eva's innocence ange ignored. |
2013-10-06, 15:44 | Link #33102 | |
The True Culprit
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Namely, that it's usable by Beatrice and anyone associated with her. She can also be using it because she's effectively deeming to continue the circular, looping tragedy (the one winged eagle can only fly in a circle) for all time. Aaaand she's a Mary Sue.
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2013-10-06, 18:49 | Link #33103 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hungary
Age: 29
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Last edited by Andor-sama; 2013-10-06 at 20:38. |
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2013-10-06, 20:07 | Link #33104 |
The True Culprit
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That's...not what I meant. I'm saying that in the fantasy/meta-world narrative the crest has ADDITIONAL meanings ontop of what it has in the world of humans. That's why characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos are able to wear it without it being a plot hole for Beatrice's magical narrative.
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2013-10-06, 20:34 | Link #33105 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hungary
Age: 29
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On the chessboard only the family members and the trusted servants have the crest (Shannon and Kanon are arguable, but Genji definitely counts as servant). On the magical plane only Beatrice herself, the actual head of the family who also has to be one of the real family members and HER trusted servants have the crest, like siestas and the seven sisters of purgatory. Of course family members who appear in the meta world also wear the crest. It's only that the perspective is different in the meta world because Beatrice's servants are also servants of the family. On the other hand if this was the case there are a few characters that should wear the crest, like Gaap, EVA-Beatrice but they dont... |
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2013-10-06, 21:59 | Link #33106 | ||||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I'd say there's a good argument to be made there that Erika simply had the one winged eagle on her wedding clothes because she believed by the end of the ceremony that she would be the official lord and master of Rokkenjima. Of course, that doesn't exclude the theories of connections between Ange and Erika in any case. |
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2013-10-07, 00:53 | Link #33107 | ||
The True Culprit
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2013-10-07, 06:19 | Link #33108 | |||
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2013-10-07, 17:13 | Link #33109 | ||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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The one-winged eagle is explicitly connected to the territory lordship in the text. I'm sure it's not limited to holding that single meaning, and indeed we know it's not limited to that, but I don't think we can successfully contradict one that was laid out so clearly. Quote:
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2013-10-08, 10:32 | Link #33111 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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My primary objection to the Erika/Ange thing (besides the fact that they interact with each other in a completely different way from Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice, who are aspects of the same person) is that it doesn't seem to work on a number of thematic and characterization levels:
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2013-10-10, 16:46 | Link #33112 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I think Erika was actually a real person who fell in the sea prior to the tragedy and later on it was speculated she might have ended up on Rokkenjima. Likely there weren't so many info on her that were public knowledge and her life so her character is mostly fictional or speculation based on the little about her that was known.
Sure thing there are a lot of parallels between her and Ange and they're likely created on purpose. Interesting is that Erika appears as Bern's piece after Ance's piece destroyed herself due to her wish to help the brother she loved. Erika seems to be a memento to Ange. Although love can lead you to see things that aren't there if you completely give up on it things will be actually worse, you'll become a worse person and you'll lose sight of the true truth, forcing your own views on something. Erika can be seen as the symbolic representation of many things that plagued/risked to plague Ange. However I don't think Erika IS Ange, it's more likely she was built to show Ange what she could become and in the bad ending Ange more or less choses to become like Erika. She loses faith in the people around her and destroy them, ending up on drifting aimlessly on the sea. Ironically in the same way as Erika her fate would become unknown as she would disappear and it would be unknown is she died in the sea or reached Rokkenjima as she planned or... something else. Ange might have also felt some closeness with Piece Erika. Undoubtely she would have liked to be able to solve any mystery and placing the crime on Natsuhi might have been even better than placing it on Eva as she would have been able to deny the Rudolf's family culprit theory and yet accept Eva's love. Also, even though later on Ange regretted hurting Maria it's likely when she was a child she did not. It's typical of small children to long for showing themselves as better than who's older than them. Waving off Maria's magic and going to play with the older cousins Ange defines herself as more mature than Maria. Dlanor said what pushed Erika to attack Maria were, according to him, negative emotions. It's possible Ange did the same to Maria for the same reason. Surely it's hard to think that she had negative emotions due to a boyfriend dumping her though it can be that part is a reference to Kyrie and Rudolf? It's possible that Rudolf kept cheating on Kyrie even after marrying her, creating an unpleasant family situation so that Ange was subconsciously afraid her parents would divorce so Ange vented her feelings of frustration on Maria. Though it'll be interesting if that scene is a hint to what happened between Rudolf and Asumu and would explain well Rudolf's guilt and Battler's reaction to Rudolf's marriage. Interesting enough after all Erika's past drama apparently doesn't have direct references with Yasu (George and Jessica didn't cheat on her, as for Battler he might have had another girl but he's not there to interact with Yasu nor Yasu can find clues about him cheating), Battler (he claims he's single, sure, he has an interest in Shannon who's now George's girlfriend but the situation doesn't mirror Erika's) or Ange (no love relations unless you force things and say that's a twisted representation of Ange's love for her brother how she believed her brother was Tohya and how he refused to meet her, which might have lead her to feel 'cheated'. To me however it feels like a very forced parallel). |
2013-10-13, 05:24 | Link #33115 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Is there another place where they're further along in the Ep 8 Manga? |
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2013-10-13, 14:41 | Link #33118 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Yup, I know I'm repeating myself but the changes in Ep 8 definitely improved the chapter. I wish some of them had been applied to Ep 7 as well instead Ep 7 isn't saying much more than the Visual novel did and I'm not really fond of how it handles the narrative of certain pieces of the story. |
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2013-10-14, 06:39 | Link #33119 | ||
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So yes, she basically solved Shkannon, though the person in that case is just given as person X in a raincoat who is being recognized by Battler as Kanon. Quote:
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2013-10-15, 03:35 | Link #33120 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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All People can only use their own Names The term "All People" might be vague, it might be possible that "Shannon" is recognized as Kanon, but this isn't evidenced at any point up until the Shkannon theory. So we can use this rule to further prove it. Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series. These two Red truths mean that Yasu could not have existed within the Umineko timeframe. Even Ushiromiya Lion is more legitimate than Yasu(Opinion, but I think I can put it in the context of the Red Truth given the evidence I just prescribed) Here's my Blue Truth surrounding Shakannon. One of the 17 people on Rokkenjima simply don't exist. We could imply this to be Kanon(in the Shkannon theory). However, the "even if you join us" is crucial. Battler/Beatrice could've just simply said "There are 16 people on Rokkenjima" and be done with it, but yet they willingly included the "probability" of Erika joining. My theory(and I admit it's Known's theory as well) is that Erika never existed. Actually, it's not even a theory. We're told outright that She doesn't count in either of the 4 games. That's a major hint right there to the solution. Of course, her body may very well have washed ashore on Rokkenjima, but the only time anyone could've actually seen her. Was when the family docked off the boat(and we never see any evidence of any lying body ever.) Or. When the Cousins go out to the beach. Hell, you'd especially think Maria would recognize a dead body and she could say "Beatrice Exists" UUU~ |
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