Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Keroko]

I find it amusing that it is mostly Kirito gets blamed for idiocy here even though he has an NPC with him that calls him papa, who keeps talking about a mama and Kirito himself keeps saying there's someone he has to meet.

Really, he couldn't have been more obvious without yelling "I have a girlfriend" every five seconds. The one who failed to connect the dots here is Suguha, not Kirito.

[Dr. Casey]

Maybe Suguha realized early on that ALO Kirito had a girlfriend, she's just a bad girl and figured that she could steal Kirito The Spriggan away. She just broke down towards the end once she realized that Spriggan Kirito was actually Cousin Kirito because she knew how deeply Kirito was in love with Asuna, and that Kirito was one of the few guys for whom her feminine wiles wouldn't work.

[Hooves]

People like happy endings, seeing stories comes together and cause trauma to poor Sugu's heart makes it depressing. The way Sugu has been in Kirito's life has been him neglecting her after knowing they weren't siblings. Sugu eventually grew used to that, but was saddened to know that her brother was hospitalized from SAO.

Like Sugu said, she thought she had a chance since Kirito was being nice to her now. Instead of neglecting her and avoiding her like he used to before SAO. The romance between Kirito and Asuna lead Sugu on the path to forgetting and letting things go. But just having her learn that Kirito is Kazuto, and breaking her poor heart to even more pieces is rough indeed.

But I believe it helps her story in another sense. If somehow Sugu is able to forgive over-time, because it wasn't as if Kirito purposefully lead into anything. It might help the bond between Sugu and Kirito as brother, and sister more then keeping things in the dark. I was curious about Kirito's family, especially his sister when she was in the 1st episode, and when he talked about her to Silicia. ALO lets us explore her own personal story, so I don't think this arc is wasted.

About the "papa" thing. That really can lead anyone to think they have a girlfriend in that scenario. But it could also be that Yui just likes to call Kirito "papa" to someone else's perspective. If there isn't another presence shown, or if there isn't any "mama" going around near Leafa. Then that's what you would think. Regarding how this episode transpired, Sugu probably thought that Kirito had someone that meant a lot to him. Like how he goes saving people's lives, or risk helping Sugu and the Slyphs when he was a Spriggian.

Edit: When Yui said "cheating" to the leaders, that can be a valid argument. But Leafa being able to become close to Kirito and Yui is fine with it can lead to BIG misunderstandings.

Just my personal opinion though.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There's a lot more to the theme and message of SAO than just "Kirito and Asuna's story". It's not a shounen action show that's all about watching the protagonist power-up so he can face his next villain (although there is an element of that). Suguha's story offers its own commentary and perspective on the link between games and reality and how your feelings are the bridge between the two. It's a complement to the perspectives of both Kirito and Asuna, whose current situation is developing the same themes. Even though her romance was doomed from the start, the issues explored and the perspective shown is directly connected to the show's theme.

As I said before, Kirito and Asuna's story isn't auto-magically more important or more related to the theme just because they're the main characters. From a strictly pragmatic point of view, there's nothing to be gained from Asuna being captured since we know for sure that she will be reunited with Kirito in the end. So their little story arc of being separated and reunited is not magically more important than Suguha's because of who they are. It's also not pointless just because the destination is known, because that's no different in either plot thread. All three characters are important because their respective stories all revolve around the same theme and message, and that's why the three perspectives will come together in the arc's denouement.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but I think it's extremely relevant to the story they're telling... just not to the story you would rather they tell instead.

Seriously, I can't see a thing you are saying in this show and I honestly think you are reading way too much into it. What I can see are flat characters in a flat story with an even more flat vilain. This theme and message, what are they in the first place? Because i Seriously don't get. It just present in a so superficial way, that i'm even wondering why so much people take this so seriously.
And of course the Kirito Asuna story is far mor important than this onsided romance thing with Suguha. Without The situation Asuna and Kirito are in, we would not have this Show in the first place. Suguhas romance was by no means necessary to the plot and taking that away would not have changed anything to it. Heck Suguha even could have ben replaced completely with a diferent girl that has absolutely no romantic feelings for him and it still would not have changed anything. Kirito would still be the same, like everyone else too.

[Oroboro]

Seriously, I can't see a thing you are saying in this show and I honestly think you are reading way too much into it. What I can see are flat characters in a flat story with an even more flat vilain. This theme and message, what are they in the first place? Because i Seriously don't get. It just present in a so superficial way, that i'm even wondering why so much people take this so seriously.

I find this type of attitude really disappointing, and I see it everywhere...

[Dr. Casey]

What kind of attitude do you mean?

I can agree with the villain being flat (though he's not exactly meant to be multifaceted anyway), but I disagree with the story being flat and disagree even more strongly with the characters being so.

[Oroboro]

Just the active rejection of a deeper meaning, or even the possibility that there might be something more there than they're giving it credit for.

Sometimes, what you get out of a story is proportional to what you put into it, yknow?

[Somnus]

I find it amusing how people say "forced drama, forced drama" for the Kirito x Sugu relationship criticizing how drawn-out and pointless it is. You talk as if it'd be far fetched to find this situation in actuality.

The situational circumstances are pretty similar to this instance I had a few years back:

I have a Male and Female friend, and am close to both. They dated in high school. Broke up to go their separate ways after graduating. After breaking up female realizes she really liked Male friend, which only grows more after they meet again after a year and a bit. Male friend has girlfriend. Female friend still likes him, and is sad. I know this, but the Male friend is none the wiser.

As the third party here I'm assuming the same role as someone watching SAO, the audience. Am I supposed to say "What the hell is this forced drama for?" That's ridiculous.

It's not like for the past 10 or so episodes Sugu has been screaming at Kirito, "WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME!?" (literally forcing drama). The only exception, of course, being this one episode. As an audience we just get to see everything, and everyone's situation/thoughts as a whole. It'd be nice to take a couple seconds to realize the individual circumstances here instead of writing it off due to your own unfortunate fate as an audience member.

Do I really need to point out the fact that men and women getting interested in someone who's already taken is a pretty common occurrence? These things do happen outside of "harem" anime, you know.

[Oroboro]

^ Also this. Suguha is, remember, a 15 year old girl, with all the emotional immaturity that entails.

And a bit selfish even, she's far more focused on her own perspective and feelings than trying to consider what Kazuto is going through. Which is well, totally normal.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Somnus

I find it amusing how people say "forced drama, forced drama" for the Kirito x Sugu relationship criticizing how drawn-out and pointless it is. You talk as if it'd be far fetched to find this situation in actuality.

[...]

Do I really need to point out the fact that men and women getting interested in someone who's already taken is a pretty common occurrence? These things do happen outside of "harem" anime, you know.

Your situation has barely nothing in common here.
The problem with ALO arc is that they introduced Suguha's role (not character) as essentially a third wheel that will never get a chance to begin with, with the saving grace of being a major actor in Kazuto's quest of rescuing Asuna. To actually shoehorn a character in a fiction that would just do nothing in the romance interactions aside of bringing a drama in there is what bothers some of us.

Suguha's emotional turmoil isn't far fetched. What is far fetched is how the Author felt the need to conveniently put that character in such setup twice in a row without much relevancy to the plot: the fact Suguha conveniently played the very same game is one thing that I can let slide. However, the fact she conveniently didn't find out that Kirito was played by Kazuto despite living under the same roof, then falling in love THEN being smashed to smittereens is something beyond awkward in term of storytelling.
This is where the forced drama is called down: a character that has no choice of winning whatsoever is placed as the main vector of a ongoing arc, to be actually a catalyst of a one sided romance failure, with little to no involvement from the love interest. And such problem actually has no impact in the large scope of all things in the said arc.

As mentioned already, Suguha being Kazuto's sister has barely any relevancy in the equation. It is just a parameter that makes it easier to spot the "doomed love flag" and all the tropes that originates from it (because let's be honest, the author do put several "anime type" girls on purpose to cover the audience fetish).

So far, the major complaint here was rather how Suguha's role (I insist on that term, it is fairly different if we talk about her character altogether, which has not real issue to begin with) was used as a needless romance foil. She could potentially have more role than that, but the anime simply doesn't go this way, and Suguha's involvement is strictly on ALO arc, and this is where the problem lies in.

If you honestly think the incident and consequences are absolutely natural, please be my guest, that's your own perspective and interpretation.
That said, if you feel the need to disagree, at least consider the actual points instead of pointing out the wrong arguments.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Just the active rejection of a deeper meaning, or even the possibility that there might be something more there than they're giving it credit for.

Sometimes, what you get out of a story is proportional to what you put into it, yknow?

Aye, I agree. Personally, I've always thought that many stories don't get the credit that they deserve. A lot of people tend to act as though just because something isn't 'high art' (ugh I feel so pretentious using that term) it must be low art, and I don't think one should be accused of looking too deeply into a story simply because they attribute more meaning to it than you do. Stories resonate differently with different people, after all, doesn't mean either viewpoint is wrong.

Originally Posted by Somnus

Do I really need to point out the fact that men and women getting interested in someone who's already taken is a pretty common occurrence? These things do happen outside of "harem" anime, you know.

I've noticed over the years that many posters on AnimeSuki seem to have pretty stringent standards for what qualifies as realistic.

"Character A got emotional over a situation and handled it slightly badly? Such forced drama. Things like that never happen in real life."
"Character B showed a slight regression in personality? How unrealistic. I can't believe that his character progression isn't completely and utterly linear."
"*insert any plot development ever that throws the story into a darker direction, or a more positive direction* How contrieved. Coincidences never happen in real life, and in reality there are never unexpected strokes of fortune and misfortune. Such contrieved and unrealistic nonsense."

Apparently, the only realistic story that properly conveys a setting that's true to life is a story in which nothing even remotely interesting or dramatic or slightly unlikely ever happens.

Originally Posted by Klashi

To actually shoehorn a character in a fiction that would just do nothing in the romance interactions aside of bringing a drama in there is what bothers some of us.

[...]

(because let's be honest, the author do put several "anime type" girls on purpose to cover the audience fetish).

I don't have any problem with most of this post and can see where you're coming from, but for the first point... well, "If it doesn't contribute to the main plot it has no purpose" is just an overly pragmatic thought process I have trouble relating to. Just because a subplot doesn't contribute to the main plot doesn't mean that it's a waste of time, or that it doesn't contribute anything at all. Just being entertaining and enjoyable and giving insight into the characters and how they respond to certain situations is reason enough for me.

And as for the latter part, well... not to sound rude, but unless you're a mind reader I don't think anyone can say for sure the reasons that he writes his characters any certain way. He might just be trying to craft characters that he believes are genuinely good, rather than just cheaply exploit tropes for some easy popularity and increased sales.

[Vsin]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

snip

This is basically my criticism of most of Fairy Dance. Lyfa/Sugu is completely irrelevant to the plot and only exists to be a love interest that inevitably gets shattered. For crying out loud, I even consider Silica and Lizabeth to be more plot-relevant because at least their interactions with Kirito helped define Kirito's personality. Lyfa/Sugu's actions and reactions basically don't have any effect on the plot until the not-so-surprising plot twist.

I have nothing against the whole incest romance thing. What I have a problem with is how utterly pointless the developments are, especially when the overarching plot is supposed to have absolutely nothing to do with Sugu, except for Sugu basically shoehorning herself into the plot.

Seriously, take Sugu and Lyfa right out of Fairy Dance and ask yourself what changes. Admittedly this question is easier to answer when the arc actually finishes, but if you ask me you can completely remove Lyfa/Sugu from the arc and nothing of value is lost. It's really, really telling when even A1, despite their extremely faithful adaptation, chooses to remove AN ENTIRE CHAPTER. Because that chapter is nothing but more dramatic irony tension and a plot setup that doesn't bear fruit until a side story.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Vsin

Seriously, take Sugu and Lyfa right out of Fairy Dance and ask yourself what changes.

That means saying goodbye to a great pair of boobs

unacceptable change imo

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What is far fetched is how the Author felt the need to conveniently put that character in such setup twice in a row without much relevancy to the plot: the fact Suguha conveniently played the very same game is one thing that I can let slide. However, the fact she conveniently didn't find out that Kirito was played by Kazuto despite living under the same roof, then falling in love THEN being smashed to smittereens is something beyond awkward in term of storytelling.

The narrative irony is the point. I think there's certainly no in-story reason why she should have figured it out over the course of these three days, even though they live in the same house. But, it's obviously designed so that the plot will culminate as it did. I don't think she really "fell in love" with Kirito so much over the few days (at least not compared to her long-running feelings for Kazuto), but she wanted to and thought she could. I suppose they could have been more subtle/sneaky about it, but I thought the irony was played reasonably well.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This is where the forced drama is called down: a character that has no choice of winning whatsoever is placed as the main vector of a ongoing arc, to be actually a catalyst of a one sided romance failure, with little to no involvement from the love interest. And such problem actually has no impact in the large scope of all things in the said arc.

I would contend strongly that Suguha is the central character being developed in this arc, and all the other developments in the arc have an impact on her and her development, rather than the other way around. The stuff with Kirito and Asuna is happening in parallel, but doesn't really develop their characters that much beyond where they already were. So I think I could safely argue and defend that this arc exists to tell Suguha's story, in the context of resolving the situation with Kirito and Asuna. In that sense, the very theme itself was her doomed romance.

Spoiler for Comparison to D.C.S.S. ~Da Capo Second Season~:

This is the very same theme explored in D.C.S.S., where the whole plot revolved essentially around the inherent unfairness of those were not chosen and finding a way to move on.

Of course, this was an incredibly unpopular show in no small part because of this uncommon theme. A lot of people considered the entire show "pointless" simply because the romantic heroine never changed and they never really further developed the main couple... even though that tied to the very theme of the work.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

So far, the major complaint here was rather how Suguha's role (I insist on that term, it is fairly different if we talk about her character altogether, which has not real issue to begin with) was used as a needless romance foil. She could potentially have more role than that, but the anime simply doesn't go this way, and Suguha's involvement is strictly on ALO arc, and this is where the problem lies in.

I think, again, rather than a "needless romance foil", the subject is her doomed romance. So the climax to that development and the related denouement will complete the essence of her story. What we as an audience take away from that ties into the themes that were developed over the course of this arc.

Originally Posted by Vsin

Seriously, take Sugu and Lyfa right out of Fairy Dance and ask yourself what changes. Admittedly this question is easier to answer when the arc actually finishes, but if you ask me you can completely remove Lyfa/Sugu from the arc and nothing of value is lost.

Honestly, get rid of Sugou and his comedic henchmen, and have Asuna just wake up in her hospital at the same time as Kirito. Is there anything of value lost? Asuna loses one fiance that stands no chance, and Kirito is reunited with his true love and they can move on to future battles together.

I think this whole arc is about the journey more than the destination. We've known the destination since day one.

(Incidentally, I don't believe the parallels between these two "futile" plot threads is an accident by any means.)

[SilverSyko]

Well if Leafa wasn't around noone could have retrieved Kirito's soul from after he was killed and revived him right? I know he would've revived eventually anyway since it's a game but there's a penalty for that and I don't know if Kirito could afford such a thing to happen.

But I know what you guys mean. I could do without the incestuous sub-plot too because I think it's silly, unnecessary and not very interesting. Though I would say that about any show where romance is not the main focus really. It's not my place to say it shouldn't have it though because the author has the right to write whatever the hell he wants.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Suguha's emotional turmoil isn't far fetched. What is far fetched is how the Author felt the need to conveniently put that character in such setup twice in a row without much relevancy to the plot: the fact Suguha conveniently played the very same game is one thing that I can let slide. However, the fact she conveniently didn't find out that Kirito was played by Kazuto despite living under the same roof, then falling in love THEN being smashed to smittereens is something beyond awkward in term of storytelling.

I don't see anything weird about her "falling in love" with Kirito. Though what she did was earmark him as a replacement for the one that was beyond her reach. And you've got to admit, Kirito and Kazuto do have a lot in common, personality-wise...

This is where the forced drama is called down: a character that has no choice of winning whatsoever is placed as the main vector of a ongoing arc, to be actually a catalyst of a one sided romance failure, with little to no involvement from the love interest. And such problem actually has no impact in the large scope of all things in the said arc.

As mentioned already, Suguha being Kazuto's sister has barely any relevancy in the equation. It is just a parameter that makes it easier to spot the "doomed love flag" and all the tropes that originates from it (because let's be honest, the author do put several "anime type" girls on purpose to cover the audience fetish).

But, as Relentlessflame said, if you look at it as Suguha's story, it really isn't so bad. It's a story where the heroine doesn't get the boy, but does that matter?

So far, the major complaint here was rather how Suguha's role (I insist on that term, it is fairly different if we talk about her character altogether, which has not real issue to begin with) was used as a needless romance foil. She could potentially have more role than that, but the anime simply doesn't go this way, and Suguha's involvement is strictly on ALO arc, and this is where the problem lies in.

I'd like to note that even though she didn't appear in SAO, Suguha was one of Kirito's three great regrets, which pushed him into becoming the hero he eventually was. (The other two being Klein and Sachi.)

[Dr. Casey]

Hm, I'm pretty sure that Klein managed to survive SAO (thankfully, he's an awesome guy). I think you mean the guy who died during the first boss fight, whose name escapes me.

[Rising Dragon]

No, he means Klein. Kirito felt immense guilt for leaving him behind on floor 1 when the whole trap thing was revealed. That Klein survived the game doesn't erase that guilt. Diabel's death factors into it.

[Dr. Casey]

Ah, I see. That was during the first or second episode? I don't remember that at all; I should go back and watch them.

[Anh_Minh]

First. And there were repeated allusions to it right up until the fight against Kayaba.