[Manga] Claymore Chapter 78 Discussion

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Blablabla

It would have been better putting some sacrifice stuff with Galatea dying with the kids she protected by her side, making a strong sentimental scene. She better stays with the kids and let Miata the future mass ass kicker join them.
Two generations of Claymores along side to fight the evil (and they saved Clarice life some time ago).

That is cool.

A totally pointless death for a bunch of nameless orphans with no resulting plot forwarding and accepting an assassin into the group is a cool plot ?!?!?

Let's just say that I, for one, hope you never get to fill in for Yagi-sensei. If that were to happen, I'd be forced to stop reading Claymore...(and burn my graphic novels of it)

[Zsych]

In the past Galatea was superior to the other Claymores. Now compared to the main characters she's more of a random weakling.

Hmm... from the looks of things, Clare and Miria surpass the level of *could head for #1: Miata*

I find that I'm not really in a position to decently speculate about the next chapters because the sheer magnitude of ownage that just occurs puts the Fab 7 among the greater powers, and possibly as dangers to the Abyssals... especially if they release youki. Normally I would think that at this point, the only thing that can happen is that a greater enemy appear, except that we are supposed to know all the greater powers of the manga... meaning as some have said, that it looks like the manga is heading for a close.

... Unless Riful has just detected Galatea's youki.

[Fenrir_valindri]

It really isn't fair to pass judgment on Miata's ability as of yet, I doubt ANY of the 7 Ghosts could have shifted Agatha like Miata did, and that was while she was injured.

Miata is still a kid, when she gets older she will undoubtedly rank among the strongest.

Its also not really fair to judge Galatea's performance and compare it to the Ghosts, especially since she was outnumbered and outgunned, the fact she is alive after all that is amazing in itself.

As for the Ghosts taken an Abyssal One, return to Miria's reaction to Riful's Yoki, and you will see that they aren't ready for that yet, at least not without losing more then a few of their own.

There are plenty of enemies left that are more then a real threat to the 7, considering Agatha really didn't impress me with her power at all.

The 7 splitting up at some point is a likely possibility as well.

------

Cyclone: your overreacting to the suggestion, considering Galatea herself was supposed to be just as much of an assassin back when she was pursuing Clare.

As much as a Martyr's death would have made me sad, it would not have been a bad development, especially if she did it while fighting Agatha. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

----

[[thousandmaster]]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Galatea is my favorite character in the series, but I agree with the majority sentiment, she would make a terrible leader..

Oh c'mon now. Really. She'd do just fine as Miria as a leader. But she's much better suited being a lone wolf. Galatea work's better alone like an ARC clone trooper (Advance recon commando) from Star wars.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Actually, Miria is a way better leader then Galatea ever could be :P

Not to say that Galatea would be a bad leader.

[chibamonster]

I am really confused at where all this disappointment in Galatea's strength and ability comes from. If Miata had worked with her as opposed to trying to kill her the whole time Galatea could have taken Agatha without the help of the ghosts. Galatea almost got Agatha anyway with her sneak attack. Remember that she did manage to cut off Agatha's head? That is with a future rival of number 1 on her tail at the same time. Galatea is tough.

If anything I think Galatea is plenty powerful compared to the ghosts. Especially because Miria has always been better than number 1 in a group since before her awakening and the other fab 4 have rivaled single digits since before the slashers arc. That was before Clare got Irene's arm. Rabona's battle with Agatha was not like Pieta where everyone was divided up in their various battles and uncoordinated when Rigardo struck, they all worked together against one target as opposed to fighting desperately for their lives against multiple above average AB's. If anything the ghosts got the surprise attack this time.

Personally I do not see much indication that the ghosts are individually exponentially stronger than they were before, just more coordinated and stealth, which overall is a huge power jump for the team. Miria apparently had an ability jump before Pieta and Clare got Irene's arm about the same time. I would say that Helen's drill is definitely very useful but her stretchy arm attack was not bad either. I think Galatea is definitely very very useful and the ghosts are far from invincible.

Also I don't know why Galatea would be a poor leader; she figured out how to take Duff out with Clare and Jea. She worked with the team mates and even taught clare how to synchronize her youki. She also figured out and risked a chance to take out agatha by getting Miata and Clarice to come after her. Her plan didn't work, but then again that does not mean she is a bad leader. Miria had no team plan in the slashers arc at all. In Pieta Miria did a good job of getting the teams more powerful but that too was a failure once Rigardo came in. The youki pills was nice planning by Miria though except once again if not for Clare there would have been a very different list of survivors. I see little reason to think Galatea would not be a competent leader; she works well with others, she is good at analyzing and understanding situations, she is level headed, is willing to put herself at risk to achieve her goals, can see and use opportunities (as seen when she took Agatha's head), and she cares for those she works with.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I agree with your thoughts on Galatea, but disagree that the Ghosts haven't gotten much stronger individually.

Each one of them easily took the leg of an Awakened #2 (no matter how disappointing her strength appeared), and that is not something that their previous ranks would even remotely indicate they were capable of doing.

Helen, Deneve, and Clare were supposed to be able to "hold their own" against single digits after the partial awakening, not necessarily win, but during the War in the North, all of them had improved a great deal, and were certainly high (6-9) single-digit level.

After 7 years of developing their skill and pushing their bodies to the limit, it is obvious that their training has put them all into the single-digit power ranking, even Yuma. The partially awakened are all probably top 5 material; Deneve and Helen are probably around #4-5, and Miria and Clare are probably #2-3 Material, if not closing in on #1 material.

Their team-work is also something to be feared, for 7 years they trained together consistently, and their teamwork is perfect, each of them immediatly understanding what they need to do without so much as a word passing between them. (Well, Helen is noisy as always )

I thought Galatea's strength was amazing during her fight against Agatha/Miata, she was able to keep herself alive while being attacked by an incredibly powerful warrior and a Awakened #2, even when her Yoki-manipulation proved useless on them both.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

After 7 years of developing their skill and pushing their bodies to the limit, it is obvious that their training has put them all into the single-digit power ranking, even Yuma. The partially awakened are all probably top 5 material; Deneve and Helen are probably around #4-5, and Miria and Clare are probably #2-3 Material, if not closing in on #1 material.

If Clare/Miria are #1/2 material...
...and Helen/Deneve #4/5...
Then a #3 joining would fit in nicely :P [doubt it'll happen, but wish it did]

[chibamonster]

I certainly think it is possible that the ghosts are stronger now, I just have not seen much indication of it. Maybe they should even be stronger but most of the things that I have seen so far I attribute more to their team work and cloak than to an increase in strength. We have Miria's word at how strong Clare is now, but we also know she had been struggling more than anyone to have an effective attack according to deneve. Who is to say Clare is even as powerful as she was before? She even admits that the windcutter is no where near as powerful as the quick sword she had back when she fought against duff. Just much more accurate. I think the ghosts definitely have different abilities. As I said, I attribute most of their incredible performance to organization and the ability to fight while cloaked.

For them each taking out a leg I couldn't tell if they took out the walls holding the legs up or the legs themselves. I see Clare taking out a leg or two but the rest seem to be throwing a lot more bricks than AB flesh.

It certainly is possible that they are all top 5 material but that is ranked on an individual basis. Being as strong as a number 3 means they are as strong as Galatea whereas being as strong as a number 2 would mean Beth, Irene or Priscilla. Not an easy comparison. Technically because Clare partially awakened and took out Rigardo she might be number 1 material in a simmilar way that Alicia is. The problem is Clare does not have easy access to that power. But that too was before the time skip and we definitely have not seen anything stronger than that from Clare. She is a hard one to gauge though because she has a sleeping giant within her. In Pieta Miria took out a nasty Male AB almost by herself and was the only one able to defend against Rigardo although she did not land a hit. Maybe by saying stronger I am describing something different than what I mean to. I mean a raise in base abilities; speed, strength, (obviously not youki because they can't use it) and individual battle power.

I think it is possible that the ghosts are stronger. I hope they are stronger because of the nasties that lie in front of them. I just see little indication beyond what I think happened because they trained hard. I speculate that they are stronger, because I want them to be, even if I have little to back it up .

I do heartily agree with Fenrir about Galatea though. She is pure win.

[etothex]

Surprises me the topic of discussion. Galatea is cool, and she is useful. People are going Tabitha can do the job of the "Eye" so they don't need her. They are going against the Org and Abyssal Ones, they need all the allies they can get. Even if having 2 eyes is redundant, remember that Galatea is already strong and smart. How's that not going to be helpful.

Galatea would make a great leader. As Chibamonster said, remember the fight with Dauf? Her perceptiveness and knowledge led to the conclusion that they needed Jean's strength to win. Finding a chance against impossible odds is good. She knew Riful was there right away, as opposed to Jean, who led her party to death. Being able to save your comrades/subordinates lives is a mark of a good leader.

Leading the ghosts though, belongs to Miria, as they have forged the bonds of trust. The bit of spiel between Miria and Galatea can be taken many ways in that case, like as Miria posing a subtle invitation, or checking for intent, and Galatea's response likewise, ie I'm different could mean she doesn't aspire to go against the Org. We'll have to see. I wonder next chapter if Miria and Galatea will discuss some of the Org's "secrets".

[Sci-Fi]

Nothing wrong with Galatea's strength. She attacked an awakened #2 while holding off a talented #4 (with #1 possibilities) at the same time. Clarice was basically a cheerleader. Does anybody think the current #3, Audrey is anywhere near Galatea's level?

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

Nothing wrong with Galatea's strength. She attacked an awakened #2 while holding off a talented #4 (with #1 possibilities) at the same time. Clarice was basically a cheerleader. Does anybody think the current #3, Audrey is anywhere near Galatea's level?

Ah! You underestimate the POWer of Now Duo (hereby after known as Team POWND)!
Team POWND has the confidence, the resolution, the courage, and teamwork all leading to a single dramatic move that cut about a whole foot deeper than Clare did in Riful Arc :P
Lol - that expression on Riful's face ("Don't tell me... that's it?") was priceless.

[Alleluia_Cone]

Galatea was in such an unfair position, she was fighting off Miata while dealing with Agatha, while trying to keep the soldiers from being killed, and she had no element of surprise what-so-ever. The fact that she can even hold up somewhat against Miata in the position she was in makes me more impressed with her, not less so.

[LeftX]

Originally Posted by chibamonster

Also Riful is looking for someone who can manipulate youki SPECIFICALLY GALATEA to level the playing field against Isley and Priscilla, the strongest faction in the entire claymore world by Riful's own word. That is a scary potential. In a straight out fight Riful would need the help of 2 other Abyssal level creatures to take them out, 2 for Priscilla and 1 to hold Isley off. Instead she has found something out that Galatea would be perfect at. I think Galatea has some definite potential left for the story. She may have difficulty traveling with the ghosts because her youki is not cloaked but I still see her as very important to the story.

It's pretty obvious what Riful intends to do. She needs Galatea to get as powerful as that turtle AB and force Miata to awaken, the only one in the series with enough potential to take on Priscilla. At the end of chapter 75 where they show the 4 major factions of power, how else are people imagining the young Miata to play a pivotal role?

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by chibamonster

I certainly think it is possible that the ghosts are stronger now, I just have not seen much indication of it. Maybe they should even be stronger but most of the things that I have seen so far I attribute more to their team work and cloak than to an increase in strength. We have Miria's word at how strong Clare is now, but we also know she had been struggling more than anyone to have an effective attack according to deneve. Who is to say Clare is even as powerful as she was before? She even admits that the windcutter is no where near as powerful as the quick sword she had back when she fought against duff. Just much more accurate. I think the ghosts definitely have different abilities. As I said, I attribute most of their incredible performance to organization and the ability to fight while cloaked.

I am pretty sure that she ment that it was slower then before, as the Windcutter has already been stated to be harder hitting, then the Flash-Sword.

I am also quite certain Clare is stronger then before, she was completely trounced by Miria the first time they fought, but after 7 years of training, and several partial awakenings, she can hold her own against Miria's improved Mirage, without even relying on Pre-emptive Yoki-sensing.

The fact they could even avoid capture by Riful indicates a huge leap in speed and skill for all of the fab 4.

I won't disagree that stealth and their teamwork aren't incrediable though.

For them each taking out a leg I couldn't tell if they took out the walls holding the legs up or the legs themselves. I see Clare taking out a leg or two but the rest seem to be throwing a lot more bricks than AB flesh.

I am quite certain that they destroyed the legs, as Agatha no longer had her platform at all after they did that.

It certainly is possible that they are all top 5 material but that is ranked on an individual basis. Being as strong as a number 3 means they are as strong as Galatea whereas being as strong as a number 2 would mean Beth, Irene or Priscilla. Not an easy comparison. Technically because Clare partially awakened and took out Rigardo she might be number 1 material in a simmilar way that Alicia is. The problem is Clare does not have easy access to that power. But that too was before the time skip and we definitely have not seen anything stronger than that from Clare. She is a hard one to gauge though because she has a sleeping giant within her. In Pieta Miria took out a nasty Male AB almost by herself and was the only one able to defend against Rigardo although she did not land a hit. Maybe by saying stronger I am describing something different than what I mean to. I mean a raise in base abilities; speed, strength, (obviously not youki because they can't use it) and individual battle power.

Beth and Priscilla shouldn't really be on that list (as they are both special cases) but Irene is certainly a valid comparison. Clare defeating Rigaldo, as you have said yourself, is a special situation, one that may or may not be repeated.

As for base abilities raising, it Miria herself has improved immensely in speed, and Clare keeping up with her is an indication of Clare's own swiftness. All of the 7 Ghosts, including the two who where sub-30s ranked, were able to dodge Agatha's attacks, and each take a leg. Deneve's strengh has certainly improved, from being unable to pierce an ABs shell to completely chopping an Awakened #2's body in half.

If Clare and Miria's sparring match is any indication, their individual abilities have raised quite a bit.

I think it is possible that the ghosts are stronger. I hope they are stronger because of the nasties that lie in front of them. I just see little indication beyond what I think happened because they trained hard. I speculate that they are stronger, because I want them to be, even if I have little to back it up .

There is plenty to back it up, just gotta look in the right places.

I do heartily agree with Fenrir about Galatea though. She is pure win.

Yes, Galatea certainly impressed.

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Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

Nothing wrong with Galatea's strength. She attacked an awakened #2 while holding off a talented #4 (with #1 possibilities) at the same time. Clarice was basically a cheerleader. Does anybody think the current #3, Audrey is anywhere near Galatea's level?

Audrey seems impressive ( at least more impressive then people give her credit for) but I doubt she is on-par with Galatea. Her "soft-sword" seems to be something that would be quite difficult to get around.

-------------

It's pretty obvious what Riful intends to do. She needs Galatea to get as powerful as that turtle AB and force Miata to awaken, the only one in the series with enough potential to take on Priscilla. At the end of chapter 75 where they show the 4 major factions of power, how else are people imagining the young Miata to play a pivotal role?

We don't even know if Riful is aware of Miata's existance, it does appear Miata has been kept in the Org HQ itself, so unless Riful has been paying a visit for old time's sake (to the opposite territory no less, with Alicia and Beth around) to go and notice the up and coming prodigy, I doubt she is aware of Miata's existance.

No, i'm pretty sure Riful's plan is different, and she doesn't necissarily need Galatea, she could just as easily capture the Organization's current Eye, Lune.

She doesn't need a Yoki-manipulator, she needs someone with good Yoki-sensing skills, and thus have the potential to manipulate Yoki.

We currently know 4, Tabitha, Galatea, Lune, and Clare.

I personally think she wants to disrupt the flow between Alicia and Beth, causing one, or both of them, to awaken, and then she will have two Abyssal Level puppets.

[DarkSaint]

How's it going everyone. I've been lurking for a while and had to create an account to respond to some of the false information that I've seen in the first few pages of this thread.(As you can see I have not even uploaded my avatar yet)

First off Raphaela is dead. It was in one of the Claymore Extra Chapters. I believe it was #3.

Secondly, the big bad secret of the Organization that Miria was referring to was Alicia and Beth.(and probably Rahaela and her sister before them)

Well, that's all for now. I'll probably read through the rest of the thread and try to clarify anything that might be incorrect. Off to upload my avatar and to the intro thread I go.

[chibamonster]

I guess I just have a hard time seeing Miria's previous spar with Clare as any indication of growth because it was before Clare got Irene's arm, which even now is clare's only reliable weapon. Right after Clare got the arm she fought awakened ophelia and soon figured out how to youki target Irene's arm allowing Jean to attack giving her a very simmilar ability to the windcutter with more speed and less accuracy.

What I was attempting to say, but obviously didn't, about the ghosts is that all their new skills are to make up for what they lost with their old skills now that they are cloaked as opposed to improvements on what they had before. Irene had very little power with her youki cloaked because she could not use the quicksword which required a youki release. Her quicksword's power hadn't changed but once she used it she lost the cloak which is what brought Raphaela to meet her in the end. For the ghosts they have to make up for that problem. Miria cannot mirage as fast as she used to without her youki, but now she can do it more times. Clare cannot use the meat grinder quick sword and instead has something with more accuracy. As she said in the recent chapter, the power has dropped but the accuracy has increased. Helen has not used a ranged long arm attack but has but has a more powerful close range attack. Deneve... I really don't know if she has improved at all since she was chopping AB's limbs off left and right in Pieta after Undine's death and still needed Clare to watch her back.

I feel that if they were to release their youki they probably would be stronger with all the training, especially the partially awakened claymores, but without their youki I do not think they are as powerful as they used to be when they used their youki, especially Clare. Instead it feels like they have all specialized to make it so fighting is even possible for them while cloaked; each trading something they used to rely on for something with less raw power and more finesse (except maybe Helen). I am not sure if that makes any more sense though.

And about Raphaela; Where in extra chapter 3 does it say that? I looked and found only information about Priscilla, Isley and Rigardo. I must have missed where it said Raphaela was dead somewhere else.

[khryoleoz]

I would agree with Chibamonster instead. The fab 7 do not make full use of their potential by being constricted from releasing their yoma powers. The power they had acquired is limited as it begins as an inferior compensation for their constriction.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I agree with your thoughts on Galatea, but disagree that the Ghosts haven't gotten much stronger individually.

Each one of them easily took the leg of an Awakened #2 (no matter how disappointing her strength appeared), and that is not something that their previous ranks would even remotely indicate they were capable of doing.

I'm surprised that your position here is as it is. If you must confer to Rosemary that she is weaker than an AO because she was defeated by someone who had a much harder time with someone else who held a lower rank, then I would expect you to confer the same weakness onto Agatha. Here, an awakened #2 of another generation was defeated by a coordinated effort of a group of people who didn't even release their powers. This is the same group who would all have been annihilated by another awakened #2 had he not underestimated Clare, and him they fought releasing their powers. This would suggest that Agatha could not have been "that strong" to begin with. And if we are to be consistent with your thinking, the 7 need not be "that strong" either, but because compared to a chaotic interaction between Galatea, Maita, and Clarice the 7 were "experienced" and "calm" and "in control" is what would account for their victory over a cocky foe whose self-assurance was proven wrong.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

After 7 years of developing their skill and pushing their bodies to the limit, it is obvious that their training has put them all into the single-digit power ranking, even Yuma. The partially awakened are all probably top 5 material; Deneve and Helen are probably around #4-5, and Miria and Clare are probably #2-3 Material, if not closing in on #1 material.

Their team-work is also something to be feared, for 7 years they trained together consistently, and their teamwork is perfect, each of them immediatly understanding what they need to do without so much as a word passing between them. (Well, Helen is noisy as always )

Not that I'm arguing against your point really. They pushed themselves to the limit but short of where their individual potential would be had they not been constricted from releasing their powers. If they're as strong as they are now without releasing their powers, imagine how much stronger they really would be had they not have had such constrictions.

Where the fab 7 had clearly improved is in their fashion sense. Clare and Miria are frikin' fine. Cynthia's school swimsuit is also sensual in a peculiar way.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I thought Galatea's strength was amazing during her fight against Agatha/Miata, she was able to keep herself alive while being attacked by an incredibly powerful warrior and a Awakened #2, even when her Yoki-manipulation proved useless on them both.

If you put it that way, she sounds more pathetic than anything if you look at the results of her valiant effort. She had the goal of killing a former #2 AB, but instead her plan jeopardized herself and her would be accomplices. She managed to keep herself alive until she couldn't and needed the intervention of the seven. In more ways than not having sight, she was indeed blind by having bet wrongly on the risks behind her plan.

[Jonova]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

If you put it that way, she sounds more pathetic than anything if you look at the results of her valiant effort. She had the goal of killing a former #2 AB, but instead her plan jeopardized herself and her would be accomplices. She managed to keep herself alive until she couldn't and needed the intervention of the seven. In more ways than not having sight, she was indeed blind by having bet wrongly on the risks behind her plan.

I think that makes her an heroine rather than pathetic, not everyone has the courage to risk their own life for a greater good.
Would you call those Sparta warriors who died in 300 pathetic because they ends losing their life? I think not.

[etothex]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

If you put it that way, she sounds more pathetic than anything if you look at the results of her valiant effort. She had the goal of killing a former #2 AB, but instead her plan jeopardized herself and her would be accomplices. She managed to keep herself alive until she couldn't and needed the intervention of the seven. In more ways than not having sight, she was indeed blind by having bet wrongly on the risks behind her plan.

Remember she did say it was a gamble. She explained in 77 that her other option, submitting a request would have ended up with the claymore team being slaughtered until strong enough warriors were sent, or Agatha going wild on the city. She went with the choice that had a chance of minimizing casualties. It's not her fault it didn't work.