Ore no Imouto - Episode 12 (TV ENDING) Discussion / Poll

[Itlandm]

Being "tsundere" is actually the normal relationship between siblings. Those of you who have had siblings reasonably close to your own age probably can admit that there were days when you wanted to stab them over and over while laughing maniacally, and days when you were ready to fight the world for them. That's just how it is, because being so close pulls out the deepest feelings.

[Nukerjsr]

Not of fan of this ending...it really took a sharp left into insaneville. Mostly because it feels like the writers are really trying to pump up the tsundere attitude of everyone in this show, just for the sake of it. To increase the drama and to increase the fan's emotions of the series. Without the tsundere appeal, would this show have even of had so much success?

To me, Kyousuke is a gigantic schmuck. Possibly the king, because the entire series almost has felt like it was all about Kirino's influence and the way she was able to convince him into helping her. And it really bothered me how at the end, Kyousuke immediately jumped to continuing to help Kirino, despite everything that happened between Midnight that day and the morning. What happened to his injuries? The possible love between them, doesn't come off as organic. It almost feels like Kirino slowly melded him into having possible feelings for her, because he's a dimwit and she has to get what she wants.

I wasn't a fan of the inserted drama at the end. Honestly? It's been set up for six months, the parents knew, and nothing really happened with it? That couldn't of been more manufactured, and it felt like the argument was only there so that we could see them both go tsuntsun at full force. I've seen in regular sitcoms where people have the exact same argument. But how's it cleared up? There's really no sentimentality to it, just more of the same attitude complete with a cheeky grin.

I feel like if this show has any particular message, it's that tsundere people in real life would drive any real person nuts and they would not tolerate that attitude. I'm not trying to come off as bitter or paranoid with this series, but it just stuck out to me with how the Kousaka family is all about their bipolar actions and how they can't comprehend their attitude from one person to the other, even in their own family.

I think the biggest disappointment I have with this series, is that all the fighting is so unnecessary. The bickering, the stigmatism, the protection, it really doesn't serve a point since neither of our lead protagonists truly developed from everything that went on. It's like I said earlier, lots of the drama here is straight up manufactured. It feels like that if Kyousuke did absolutely nothing, then his life and everyone else's would have been better. We might not of seen Saori and Kuroneko, but the drama going on within this family is almost too much to handle.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DasDingus

I would argue that the balance of tsuntsun and deredere is not what mattered the most in this instance but rather what changed Kyouske's outlook on Kirino the most was the mere knowledge that such a side exists.

Don't you think that Kyousuke became frustrated at Kirino tying to reverse psychology him into asking her to not go to America (i.e. her being tsun about it instead of upfront and honest about it)?

To me this is absolutely 100% blatantly obvious.

And keep in mind that this argument occurs after he's aware that she has a nice side to her (since that much was shown in Episode 11).

Even with the nice side there, I really don't think that he wants to be playing tsundere games with her all the time.

In my mind, it's the knowledge of the dere side, regardless of balance that makes the tsuntsun bearable.

It didn't make Kirino's argument with Kyousuke over her going or not going to America any more bearable to him. He still became quite upset during it.

Look, even if you know that the tsuntsun side is a mask, it can still be nice to just hear friendly words from someone you like. Furthermore, even if you know that the tsuntsun side is a mask, it doesn't make the punches and kicks any less painful, at a basic physical level.

Part of the issue with Ore no Imouto is that the slapstick comedy is played pretty realistically (aside from that one attack from Ayase in Episode 10). Here we even see Kyousuke start to show realistic bruises (if not bleeding) and get KOed.

This isn't like some Wile E. Coyote comedy violence, so I'm not inclined to just laugh it off and roll with it.

Whatever the true feelings behind a slap or a kick, it still hurts, doesn't it? So why would Kyousuke want to keep getting hurt like that? I don't think that the guy is an outright masochist, do you?

The more harmless and minor tsuntsun moments for Kirino - sure, some of that is probably amusing to him now.

But her reverting back to exactly how she was in Episodes 1 through 10 - no, I very strongly think that Kyousuke would not want that. He wants Kirino to be more deredere than that, at least.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

don't you think that Kyousuke became frustrated at Kirino tying to reverse psychology him into asking her to not go to America (i.e. her being tsun about it instead of upfront and honest about it)?

FWIW, I don't think that's quite why he was upset. It seems to me he was upset that she waited all this time to tell him and was still acting in that moment like she didn't believe he would actually care, when the truth is that he cared deeply about it. It was like she was telling him as an afterthought (everyone else already knew), and with it being only hours before she left he had no room to react. He thought they had a better understanding than that, but now he thinks that it was all in his head again. In other words, I don't think he was mad at her for being "tsun" at all -- he was mad at her for being unfair to him. Why was she even telling him this now anyway since she made it clear it had nothing to do with him anyway? When her real feelings finally came out due to the game, then he finally realized why it was she was telling him this... but it was still unfair. Saying "don't go" in that situation, even if he was feeling it... not easy, even for a humble person. Harder for someone from the Kousaka family, I'd say.

Of course, we understand it all very clearly from Kirino's perspective now. Kyousuke was the one thing that could shake her resolve, which is why she waited until the last minute to tell him and convinced herself (as an excuse) that there's no way he would care anyway and she didn't care what he thought anyway. That's why she started rambling off the excuses when it became clear that he did care -- that's exactly why she didn't want to tell him in the first place, so now she had to make him not care. And of course, her plan worked -- she pissed him off sufficiently that they were nearly back to being "enemies" again... except that isn't truly what she wanted either. The game did the rest.

So... I guess you could lump the whole thing under "Kirino being tsun" and "Kyousuke being annoyed that Kirino was being tsun"... but that becomes a mighty big catch-all for an awful lot of diverse and complicated behaviour. It's not like "dere" is "nice and honest", and "tsun" is "everything else Kirino does that isn't either nice or honest".

Anyway, like I said, FWIW. Something to think about. You don't need to respond, since you weren't really asking me anyway.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Kirino is cute just the way she is. "Tsuntsun" side and all. By the end of the show, Kyousuke understands this. That's the meaning of the title. The last title call was while she was being tsun (along with the title call in Episode 3, incidentally), and his final smile is in result to another of her "tsun" actions. That's the response to Episode 1. He didn't come to appreciate Kirino because she changed her behaviour, he came to appreciate her because he finally understood what her behaviour really meant. They have an understanding now and, in spite of it all, are no longer "enemies". They'll automatically get along a bit better from now on because she doesn't have to put up such a strong front; he can let her be dishonest all she wants, because he knows the truth now. It's as if he deciphered the code; he doesn't have to be so defensive anymore.

So yes, of course Kyousuke likes it when Kirino acts nice to him (who wouldn't?), but the point of the show isn't "how Kyousuke came to get along with Kirino because she learned to be more nice". It's how Kyousuke learned to understand Kirino's behaviour even though it isn't always "nice". She isn't the demure sister from the dream opening, but she's cute all the same just the way she is.

That.

...

Or more to the point, yes sir I think you have it. His attitude towards her in the final sequence as she walks down the street reveals an almost complete reversal of his attitude from the first episode... all while her behavior is not markedly changed at all.

In other words, this is the story of someone discovering the true moé of a tsun tsun girl. It's hardly surprising that those who don't appreciate such a girl are gonna have a hard time with the protagonists journey.

Now... all that's left is for her to decipher his code. :-)

[Leo_Otaku]

Wow that really didn't go anywhere.....I so wish he would have hit her back...so badly.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

At the very least, the viewer doesn't know. They haven't explained anything to us. Again i'm going to ask, why do they hate each other (Without extrapolating from extremely weak clues)?

Originally Posted by Vexx

Those extra episodes need to be chock full of thread followups. ... or I'm going to have to read the damn novels if i really want a story o.O

I think we're only going to find out why "they hate each other", or rather, why they weren't communicating with each other, only as we approach the end of this story. Why? Because it ties in with what the author describes this story as: a tale of an estranged brother and sister reconnecting with each other. Unfortunately, it makes watching an incomplete product rather frustrating, for without knowing exactly what the origins of their estrangement were, we can't really tell if we have been given any hints or not (and in fact, given an interview I read, I'm not even sure Fushimi-sensei had that planned out right from the beginning.)

On a related note, since it is incomplete, I don't think we can really tell what the message of this story is yet, and I'm not sure it's quite as simple as some of you are making it out to be. People are complex creatures, after all.

=====

Originally Posted by Nukerjsr

It almost feels like Kirino slowly melded him into having possible feelings for her, because he's a dimwit and she has to get what she wants.

Don't know about anyone else, but I think Kyousuke has gotten something out of this: his sister not ignoring him anymore. I won't comment on the abuse - both physical and verbal - except to say that it doesn't appeal to me (trust me, it'll get long and I can't afford the time), but as they say, the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

FWIW,...It seems to me he was upset that she waited all this time to tell him and was still acting in that moment like she didn't believe he would actually care, when the truth is that he cared deeply about it. It was like she was telling him as an afterthought (everyone else already knew), and with it being only hours before she left he had no room to react. He thought they had a better understanding than that, but now he thinks that it was all in his head again.
*snip*
When her real feelings finally came out due to the game, then he finally realized why it was she was telling him this... but it was still unfair. Saying "don't go" in that situation, even if he was feeling it... not easy, even for a humble person. Harder for someone from the Kousaka family, I'd say.

That's how I interpret this scene too. Though unlike you, I didn't come to the conclusion that Kyousuke's happy now because he's accepted Kirino's tsundere behaviour per se. Like Triple_R notes, I think he'd be happier to have more of the dere and less of the tsun behaviour, but one key thing is that Kyousuke knows that Kirino's not indifferent to him.

Originally Posted by rocket

all while her behavior is not markedly changed at all.

Maybe we're not watching the same show. Contrast the very last scene where Kyousuke gets back from school with the first time it happened in the anime. Kirino's actually speaking to him of her own accord now, not completely ignoring him.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by karice67

Though unlike you, I didn't come to the conclusion that Kyousuke's happy now because he's accepted Kirino's tsundere behaviour per se. Like Triple_R notes, I think he'd be happier to have more of the dere and less of the tsun behaviour, but one key thing is that Kyousuke knows that Kirino's not indifferent to him.

Well, I'm not necessarily going to argue that it wouldn't make him happier (I suppose it might), but I think the understanding of the reason behind Kirino's tsun behaviour (that she does care about him after all) is the most important point. Further "progress" may be nice-to-have (and a goal he might work towards), but he has a foundation to build upon.

But incidentally, I do agree with your point that we can't really draw too many conclusions about the message of this show given that this is an alternate/cut-off and original ending. I think it does tell a story when you add it all up, but much like the games this is modeled after, the story here isn't necessarily the main thing the author was trying to build towards all this time. It's "an End", but not "The End".

[Nukerjsr]

I think what comes full circle with this series, is that both of our protagonists of the Kousaka family are just...poorly written. Kirino is the tsundere, who is brash and puts up the mask, yet isn't afraid to act selfish or demanding when the time calls for it. She may be desirable, but that doesn't mean she's likable. Kyousuke on the other hand, has a total lack of understand to his own hindrance. The type of person who...you wouldn't want to hang out with because he's so listless and full of hatred.

When you put the two of them in a room, you expect something to happen. And stuff really did happen over these past few episodes, but in different ways. It's just a pain as Kirino is so explosive, yet Kyousuke is very implosive in the way he tolerates everything. Because he acts like such a shell of a man, he has no concern for himself. The problem with that, is why should the audience care for a person who is so dumb and manipulated when he doesn't care for his own being and won't even learn? With the anime, it's almost like he really doesn't want anything out of life in particular, so he'll just strive to make his sister's life the best it can be. Which is a pain, when she's so conflicted in the more traditional sense.

I really wish we knew what happened to cause their hatred in the first place...I really do.

[Hoodspirit]

Same error as in the previous episode, Kyousuke's behaviour was forced to be out of character to fit this poorly made ending. Quite unnecessary to make such a meaningless ending when a real ending for a possible second season is allready planned.
The drama is useless if we do not see the progress towards the solution. It does barely work in the middle of series and definatly not in a final episode. It is not an issue with having too less time, as they were free to leave the novel at any time in this ending nor would have taken it long to present a complete line of thoughts and take out useless apologyzing ect out.
Example for kirino dere side: Kyousuke got beat up, Kirino tries to leave for america as she saw that she just hurts Kyousuke (his wake-up-scene could easily back that up, he goes to the airport telling her that besides some hurt feelings this new action in his life feels fun, after all. Would not have take much time and would be understandable as he reached such a conclusion before allready. It would display the current stage of development, without digging any further into a relationship situation.
There are surely a lot of easy to think of endings, for each type of character trait they want to display. But choosing to leave everything out in an episode where they had the freedom to do everything they wanted is just a bad work. Most of the episode even follows the novel, till the point where he looked at the album, then they make one change, that he found the ticket for the flight, creating a bit trouble, then a total cut and everything is normal.
Just very bad work.

The show had potential, with alternate endings even a chance to create a full story, which is rare for a novel-based anime where it mostly screams for more seasons and leaves us mostly hanging in the air. It had a good mix of characters, taking different fields mostly, and some nice confrontations between similar characters. It started of with some nice messages about 2Dvs3D, otaku culture, social pressure ect. but lost it along the way.
What I will remember from the show will probably be Kirino. It was nice for me to see that she could keep up a tsun side so long, felt somehow fresh to an over-used stereotype. Too bad the anime staff failed to show her development properly within the tsun catagory and just jumped to dere, making her tsun more irrational than they really are. Anime-Kyousuke I will forget quickly, as they ruined his character in the second half of the series, especiall last 2 episodes and episode 8, for no reason with all the out of character-acting.
Looking forward to the PSP game and hope the game-staff will use the potential better.

[Salt]

Ah as expected, a rather "tame" ending, it is TV after all.

There are another 4 coming out on DVD for the full ending I heard.

Just got to wait. ^_^

PS:
Now just what is in that album...

Don't spoil it for me though. >.>

[larethian]

Originally Posted by karice67

Unfortunately, it makes watching an incomplete product rather frustrating, for without knowing exactly what the origins of their estrangement were, we can't really tell if we have been given any hints or not (and in fact, given an interview I read, I'm not even sure Fushimi-sensei had that planned out right from the beginning.)

I believe he would have planned that or won't it be too difficult to actually write the story without creating inconsistencies in characters? And if he did plan it, then I'm sure there's an explanation to their behaviours and the climax and end will be something to look forward to. Otherwise the story will be a failure.

[Aspirety]

Am I the only one that thinks Kyousuke's reaction at the end was totally out of place, awkward, and ruined the ending? Seriously, what the hell was that? XD

[karice67]

Originally Posted by larethian

I believe he would have planned that or won't it be too difficult to actually write the story without creating inconsistencies in characters? And if he did plan it, then I'm sure there's an explanation to their behaviours and the climax and end will be something to look forward to. Otherwise the story will be a failure.

I'd say he had a rough idea of what the characters were like, but as for the outline of the story...well, here's the part of the interview in question, which I already posted in the light novel/manga thread...(hm...woah, had to change the translation...)

Spoiler for length:

———桐乃が初期からだいぶデレていますが、今の二人の関係性の変化は予想されていましたか？
----Kirino has really become more "dere" compared to the initial stage: did you anticipate the change in the siblings' relationship from the start?

伏見：初期段階ではまったくしていませんでした。１巻で終わると思っていましたし。２巻を書いていたときは２巻 で終わると思っていました。３巻を書いているときは４巻で終わると思っていました。私の中ではっきり変わっ たのは、４巻ラストの展開について激しく話し合ったときで、「やべぇ！　この話はまだまだ続くぞ、どうしよ う」と。ストーリーをある程度先まで考えて決めたのも、そのときです。
Fushimi: At the start, I really hadn't thought of it. At first, I thought I'd end with one volume. When writing the second, I thought it'd end at 2. When writing 3, I thought we'd finish with 4. The time everything changed was at the intense meeting after the end of 4, I realised "Yikes! This story is still continuing! What should I do?" That was when I started thinking a little about what would happen in the future.

[revive4563]

Originally Posted by AspieSincerity

Am I the only one that thinks Kyousuke's reaction at the end was totally out of place, awkward, and ruined the ending? Seriously, what the hell was that? XD

Yeah, it's obviously something like the hint of sexual relations.
Because this is the best ending even if H scene was omitted.

[Nukerjsr]

Originally Posted by AspieSincerity

Am I the only one that thinks Kyousuke's reaction at the end was totally out of place, awkward, and ruined the ending? Seriously, what the hell was that? XD

I'm totally there too. I was thinking at the end. "Well, the two might still hate each other, but atleast now things can be understood at end at that-...wait, what?" That's kind of why I went on a whole tangent with how Kyousuke's a hallow person.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

FWIW, I don't think that's quite why he was upset. It seems to me he was upset that she waited all this time to tell him and was still acting in that moment like she didn't believe he would actually care, when the truth is that he cared deeply about it.

That was no doubt a factor, but I guess that I just classify part of that (her acting in that moment like she didn't believe he would actually care) as her being tsun.

It's certainly true, though, that the simple fact that he was kept in the dark for so long played a role here.

One thing that maybe I should make clear: Part of the reason why I'm interpreting this episode (and this anime) the way that I am, is that contrary interpretations would leave me feeling more or less like Nukerjsr does. All of this would seem like a colossal waste of time to me if the female lead doesn't go through meaningful character development.

I just don't find this overall narrative satisfying if I didn't believe that the two leads developed, and developed significantly, over the course of the anime. Also, my favorite tsundere type is the classic type - the one that moves mostly from tsuntsun to deredere over the course of the story.

I wrote a short blog entry on "The Degradation of the Term Tsundere" over a year ago, and while my understanding of the term has changed slightly since then, I think that this blog entry still sums up what I like, and don't like, about tsunderes (and how the term itself is applied to characters).

It was like she was telling him as an afterthought (everyone else already knew), and with it being only hours before she left he had no room to react. He thought they had a better understanding than that, but now he thinks that it was all in his head again.

That makes sense, yes.

When her real feelings finally came out due to the game, then he finally realized why it was she was telling him this... but it was still unfair. Saying "don't go" in that situation, even if he was feeling it... not easy, even for a humble person.

Agreed. What she did to him in that scene really wasn't fair, for many reasons. For one thing, it really is a great opportunity for her, if she intends to pursue athletic endeavors seriously. If I was Kyousuke, I don't think that I'd want to be the reason why my sister passed up on something like that.

In fact - after reading Nukerjsr' take on this episode, I have to admit that the whole thing is rather heavy-handed, a bit forced, and unrealistic. I don't think that even the anime itself really fully conveyed just how big a deal it was for Kirino to turn this trip to America down, especially at this incredibly late juncture.

So... I guess you could lump the whole thing under "Kirino being tsun" and "Kyousuke being annoyed that Kirino was being tsun"... but that becomes a mighty big catch-all for an awful lot of diverse and complicated behaviour. It's not like "dere" is "nice and honest", and "tsun" is "everything else Kirino does that isn't either nice or honest".

Anyway, like I said, FWIW. Something to think about. You don't need to respond, since you weren't really asking me anyway.

It was good to read your take on it. It's added a bit to my understanding of this scene.

[Solafighter]

Kuroneko on the phone:"I´ll be calling him something different soon enough."

I certainly cant wait for that!!


Interesting ending. Cant wait for this alternative ending.

[Mizuno]

I kind of want Kirino's screensaver.

[Yuno]

After watching this I wish I had Kyousuke as a brother. My brother used to pay a huge amount of attention to me in the beginning. When I was younger to the point of carrying me around when I was really little. We pretty much spent all our time together as kids without much concern for others. However, when I got into highschool he sort of acted really really strange, became really distant and stopped associating with me. That oddness has always confused me, but Kyousuke is very straight forward and seems to genuinely care for his sister despite any crap she is willing to set upon him.

He has always been willing to go at length to help out his family, and he is such a ...whats the word... normal guy, like he doesn't have any super traits. He is not this amazing problem solver or super hero, he is very relatable in many regards. It's his dedication and determination that seems to get him through.

I am not a fan of hitting in any relationships of any kind, being on the recieving end by too many. However, I have mixed feelings about this episode due to the bipolar presentation. Seeing that scene was actually very very difficult for me, but I pressed on. I am beginning to feel that with such violent acts, constant mistreatement despite desire to be close and on good terms, that Kyousuke is in an abusive situation. I don't see him as a masochist at all as those in abusive relationships often don't realize they're involved in them. Or rather they are so desperate on seeking approval and making the other person happy they become trapped.

I was hoping that the ending would actually show a more toning down of that behaviour. However it did not, I can understand the reasonings behind this as she seemed to want him to say something. However, he did not as he felt going to America was best for her. It seems he always thinks of Kirino's best interest and that is very likable. I think that series could have gone longer, though I don't know much about the manga, I may read it soon though. I know that anime tend to "crunch" on 12 episode shows as it gets closer to the end. There is only a few 12 episode seasons that I felt fulfilled after watching.

Where in the world was I going with this... Mah, just ignore me~