Code Geass Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Lackadaisical]

Spoiler for Episode 13:

Lulu is an uncommonly bad terrorist to let a love struck teenager follow him even if Shirley could have received help from Vil. With Vil tracking him down it seems likely Lulu's rosey school life is about to come crashing down.

Spoiler for Episode 14 Speculation:

Shirley is dead. Easily.

As for Suzaku, I don't dislike him as much as many. But, then again, I didn't dislike Kira either for the first half of Seed. It was only after he teamed up with Lacus that Kira's character went down hill. So long as Suzaku stays a suitable distance away from Euphie he'll remain likeable in my opinion.

The continuing mecha fights between Suzaku and Lulu, without either knowing the other was their best friend, brought a smile to my face. This show is such a carbon copy of early Seed that it is amusing. The difference being this show is better despite being so similar.

The new opening isn't really bad but it is rather average. It gives the opening a fairly mellow tone which might suggests things are going to become increasingly depressing... Or that the show is going to become an Aria-style Slice of Life series: Young Men Riding Nightmares rather than Pretty Girls Rowing Boats as it were.

[c^2]

Originally Posted by W-General

Damn the new OP sucks. Argh!

Completely agree, I'm amazed at how many positive comments it has received. I didn't particularly like music before, but it fit, and it wasn't bad. This new OP is just way out of place, and not so good.

Poor Japanese liberation front, but I don't really give a crap about them.

Their fate was sealed, either way. At least their sacrifice was useful, though I do not envy Lulu for his mounting burden of guilt.

Fricking Suzaku. Bloody Kira Yamato! ARGHHHHH I HATE SUZAKU!!!! DIE DIE DIE!!! DAMN FANGIRLS! DAMN KIRA YAMATO! DAMN SUZAKU!!!!!

Really, though I choose to compare him to Shinn, not Kira. Same mindless justifications, and no character growth. What the hell is his problem; using her fathers death as an opportunity to launch into a tirade about his warped sense of justice. Furthermore, explicitly telling her that her father died for nothing!

Here's a hint Suzaku; her father's death was a direct consequence of a military action by the invaders. You are nothing more than a traitor, and it is insulting that you would even attend his funeral, much less open your stupid mouth to spout such nonsense.

That said, I think Euphie would be far better off with Nina rather than Suzaku. While some here don't think very highly of her, comparing her actions to Suzaku's, it is clear who the real monster is.


By the way, what is with calling Suzaku Suzuka, and referring to Shirley as he or him?

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by c^2

Completely agree, I'm amazed at how many positive comments it has received. I didn't particularly like music before, but it fit, and it wasn't bad. This new OP is just way out of place, and not so good.

Their fate was sealed, either way. At least their sacrifice was useful, though I do not envy Lulu for his mounting burden of guilt.

Really, though I choose to compare him to Shinn, not Kira. Same mindless justifications, and no character growth. What the hell is his problem; using her fathers death as an opportunity to launch into a tirade about his warped sense of justice. Furthermore, explicitly telling her that her father died for nothing!

Here's a hint Suzaku; her father's death was a direct consequence of a military action by the invaders. You are nothing more than a traitor, and it is insulting that you would even attend his funeral, much less open your stupid mouth to spout such nonsense.

That said, I think Euphie would be far better off with Nina rather than Suzaku. While some here don't think very highly of her, comparing her actions to Suzaku's, it is clear who the real monster is.


By the way, what is with calling Suzaku Suzuka, and referring to Shirley as he or him?

What?! Suzaku isn't in anyway like Kira. Kira stole other people's fiancees and became a wuss who wouldn't kill for whatever wuss reason when it would've been the best action to be taken.

Suzaku isn't like Shinn in that he doesn't think of himself as a big shot motherf*ck*r that deserves everything just because his entire family got caught in a battle.

Betrayer of his nation!? Independence!? Traitor!? What the hell does nationalism and national pride do other than start wars, genocide, and get simple people killed in the middle of firefights and battles!

Suzaku believes that he can change the system from within. It's a hard thing to do, but is that really something that should lead to his condemnation? He fights so that no one other civilian should have to die needlessly. And for that, he gets his ideals called as warped and nonsense!?

Suzaku wants to change the system from within to lower civilian casualties. Changing a system from the outside, like Lulu does, requires sacrifices not only in military lives, but civilian lives and structural costs as well. Suzaku just doesn't want to see normal people get sacrificed anymore, even if that means he sacrifices those who wish to cause more chaos in a country trying to rise up from the ashes of a devastating war.

Remember his line in the early episodes. "I will not shoot him because he's a civilian." He'll kill anyone like those Japan Liberation Forces if they cause disruption to society that will impede any economic and political growth that will advance the Eleven's cause.

Also, Shirley's father didn't die from a direct consequence by a military action by the "invaders" (Britannia already owns the country. To call them invaders is far from the truth. The war already ended several years before and the invasion was already completed long ago.) Britannia's military action was only there to defeat Japan Liberation forces. THEY didn't make any plans to blow up half the mountain to create a landslide. It was Zero's plan. If Zero hadn't butted in that battle with such a reckless attack, do you think that Shirley's father would've died?!!!

And Suzaku owning Lulu in a fight is very normal since Suzaku is a soldier. Lulu, though he's got the brains, was never a soldier in the first place. Their fighting experience and skills should be lopsided in favor of Suzaku's. You don't become a skilled soldier just by reading manuals.

This isn't Gundam Seed.

Please forgive this one's rudeness, but seeing someone who has such practical ideals in Suzaku get bashed for far too long, I needed to speak up.

[Majek]

Oh boy seems like in every CG thread there is a someone who can't control his emotions and must express themselves with needless bashing.

Originally Posted by c^2

Here's a hint Suzaku; her father's death was a direct consequence of a military action by the invaders. You are nothing more than a traitor, and it is insulting that you would even attend his funeral, much less open your stupid mouth to spout such nonsense.

So Brittanina is directly resposnsible for the death of a Brittanian, and a civilian at that, because they invaded Japan 7 years ago?

Oh and as for Karen not frying Cornelia. Besdies not being there to kill her she waas preoccupied with looks at what's happening to Zero.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Betrayer of his nation!? Independence!? Traitor!? What the hell does nationalism and national pride do other than start wars, genocide, and get simple people killed in the middle of firefights and battles!

Well, is the reverse any better, with Suzaku supporting a government that is starting wars, causing genocide, and get simple people killed in the middle of firefights and battles?

You need to remember that Britannian isn't a friendly place. They have invaded Japan, and they are still invading other nations. Those who do nothing are those who are responsible for the deaths to come. As a test pilot, Suzaku is helping Britannian developing new and wonderful weapons to crush and enslave the remaining free nations of the world, and you can't deny that. This isn't just about Britannian and Japan, but about a raging scourge spreading around the world that NEED TO BE STOPPED...

And Suzaku is now a part of the scourge. There will be no peace for as long as Britannian exists, and yes, national pride is better than slavery.

[Nightengale]

The problem isn't Suzaku specifically, it's how his ideals, characteristics and the actions he take all seem to conflict one another and create the Suzaku that everybody hates now.

The thing here is that, Suzaku is very ambitious. He wants to achieve some gigantic goal as a lowly disrespected and discriminated Eleven to personally invoke a change in a governmental system of a major power who knows their tyranny. In a way, he's like Reinhard von Lohengramm and Griffith, they both start very very small and isolated, but rises to power for a personal goal.

But Suzaku doesn't seem to do anything legitly open to make a difference in that sector and seems to like playing along with the pace. Sure, he's made some progress (( Euphie and saving Cornelia...apparently Cornelia doesn't look at him as A VERY IRREGULAR somewhat anymore )), but those attempts were either luck, or based on the situation. He's taking no genuine effort for a change and goes along with what comes. In other words, he's like a total anti-thesis of Reinhard, Griffith and Lelouch in that approach.

Not to mention the whole justice concept. Really...he needs to look at what he's wearing. A Brittiannia military uniform. Sure...Lelouch is no saint, but can he really call himself an embodiment of justice? Had he been given opportunities to be a Knight, wouldn't he had to mass-slaughter Elevens like the Clovis situation? How is that justice? Suzaku needs to go out and slaughter some effing civilians under the Holy Name of YES YOUR HIGHNESS/MY LORD and I want to see if he can start spouting lame theories of justice.

My opinion of Suzaku would improve a WHOLE LOT if he was like...you know, excited at the thought of a promotion. Doesn't neccesary has to be a power-hungry bastard, but still it shows something.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

My opinion of Suzaku would improve a WHOLE LOT if he was like...you know, excited at the thought of a promotion. Doesn't neccesary has to be a power-hungry bastard, but still it shows something.

At least then we could pin the tag TRAITOR on him

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well, is the reverse any better, with Suzaku supporting a government that is starting wars, causing genocide, and get simple people killed in the middle of firefights and battles?

You need to remember that Britannian isn't a friendly place. They have invaded Japan, and they are still invading other nations. Those who do nothing are those who are responsible for the deaths to come. As a test pilot, Suzaku is helping Britannian developing new and wonderful weapons to crush and enslave the remaining free nations of the world, and you can't deny that. This isn't just about Britannian and Japan, but about a raging scourge spreading around the world that NEED TO BE STOPPED...

And Suzaku is now a part of the scourge. There will be no peace for as long as Britannian exists, and yes, national pride is better than slavery.

The fighting should've stopped in Japan when it was turned into Area 11. Therefore, needless lives shouldn't have been wasted after the invasion.

While I cannot deny that the Britannian Empire isn't a friendly place, you cannot possibly think that all the people of Britannia is filled with people like Clovis and the Emperor.

Kind people like Euphemia, and to some extent, Cornelia exist in this "scourge". That's what a person like Suzaku is betting on. A future that he can change without any more bloodshed among his countrymen while getting them assimilated into the Empire as citizens as well, not just Numbers. He has already climbed up the ranks, and while there is still prejudice about his being a Number, he is gaining acceptance as a citizen of Britannia. If he gains acceptance, he will have opened up the path for the other Numbers who just want to work hard to bring order and peace to their devastated homeland.

Suzaku doesn't act in any way like a slave. He chose to fight under the banner that you call a scourge to protect those who do not have the will to fight. Those who may get caught in the crossfire. He fights to bring an end to the fighting.

If the Britannian Empire falls, the ensuing chaos that would follow afterwards would be phenomenal. But if it is reformed from within, just like Suzaku wants, he can completely stop any bloodshed while chaining the dog of Britannian war.

Even if the Britannian Empire is invading other nations as of now, what would happen if it managed to control the entire world? It's reason to fight will diminish and probably a Pax Britannia will begin.

Remember, the Pax Romana and the Pax Mongolia brought forth great economic growth and peace to the lands that were conquered and they were all ultimately developed soon afterwards. The only difference this time is that with the advances of military technology and logistics, breaking up a large empire will be harder than it was back then. Almost close to futile.

National pride better than slavery? The only ones who choose to become slaves in the current system promoted by Britannia become slaves. Look at Suzaku. He is proof that the Britannian system is not just out to make slaves. He is the proof and symbol that someday Numbers can stand on almost equal ground as Britannians.

Those "liberation" fighters are just people who can't stand other people above them after they have been people who were above their own countrymen before the invasion of Britannia started.

National pride is just an excuse for people who wants to make their own countrymen their own "slaves" without any actual backlash as it would a foreign master.

Just like Kirihara Taizou said, the path that he walks and that Lulu will walk on is the path of a demon.

Remember that Lulu is doing all this just for the sake of his own sister and due to his hatred of his father. But what about the sisters of other people. The family and lovers and those close to the people that he will kill for the sake of his ambition for one girl and revenge.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

The problem isn't Suzaku specifically, it's how his ideals, characteristics and the actions he take all seem to conflict one another and create the Suzaku that everybody hates now.

The thing here is that, Suzaku is very ambitious. He wants to achieve some gigantic goal as a lowly disrespected and discriminated Eleven to personally invoke a change in a governmental system of a major power who knows their tyranny. In a way, he's like Reinhard von Lohengramm and Griffith, they both start very very small and isolated, but rises to power for a personal goal.

But Suzaku doesn't seem to do anything legitly open to make a difference in that sector and seems to like playing along with the pace. Sure, he's made some progress (( Euphie and saving Cornelia...apparently Cornelia doesn't look at him as A VERY IRREGULAR somewhat anymore )), but those attempts were either luck, or based on the situation. He's taking no genuine effort for a change and goes along with what comes. In other words, he's like a total anti-thesis of Reinhard, Griffith and Lelouch in that approach.

Not to mention the whole justice concept. Really...he needs to look at what he's wearing. A Brittiannia military uniform. Sure...Lelouch is no saint, but can he really call himself an embodiment of justice? Had he been given opportunities to be a Knight, wouldn't he had to mass-slaughter Elevens like the Clovis situation? How is that justice? Suzaku needs to go out and slaughter some effing civilians under the Holy Name of YES YOUR HIGHNESS/MY LORD and I want to see if he can start spouting lame theories of justice.

My opinion of Suzaku would improve a WHOLE LOT if he was like...you know, excited at the thought of a promotion. Doesn't neccesary has to be a power-hungry bastard, but still it shows something.

Mass slaughter Eleven civilians? He got shot for not wanting to kill a single civilian in Lulu. How'd he be able to do that.

Also, does Lulu do anything to advance the cause of the Elevens with what he's doing? The more he fights, the more the Empire will distrust Elevens. Suzaku wants to do the opposite with his work but Lulu's rampage against Cornelia's army is doing the effect that the WHite Knight doesn't want.

Please understand that Suzaku's sense of justice got him shot. His sense of justice comes from self-sacrifice, not only for himself, but also for the civilians that will be helped by his advance in the military.

Meanwhile, Lulu's sense of justice is based on sacrificing other people for the sake of "making" a new world for his sister, whatever that will do in the long run.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Betrayer of his nation!? Independence!? Traitor!? What the hell does nationalism and national pride do other than start wars, genocide, and get simple people killed in the middle of firefights and battles!

So on the other hand, it's okay to get invaded by foreign countries, not fight back but act as subservient lifeforms that are willing to be pushed around into insalubrious getthos while the invaders relish the comforts of first world settlements and life conditions? I fail to see your logic here.

Suzaku believes that he can change the system from within. It's a hard thing to do, but is that really something that should lead to his condemnation? He fights so that no one other civilian should have to die needlessly. And for that, he gets his ideals called as warped and nonsense!?

Suzaku might be vouching for use of non-violence but so far he hasn't done anything for his peers. Rather he seems to have forgotten them in favor of pursuing his career as a frontline soldier. He's left his former compatriots to rot in ghettos like Shinjuku and Saitama without even asking favors from Euphemia concerning the Elevens' social betterment and whatnot. To make it short he has done nothing and gained no result to behold so far. He only rises through the echelons but even as a shou-i, he still has no power to wave around for the ideals he seems to uphold.

Suzaku wants to change the system from within to lower civilian casualties. Changing a system from the outside, like Lulu does, requires sacrifices not only in military lives, but civilian lives and structural costs as well. Suzaku just doesn't want to see normal people get sacrificed anymore, even if that means he sacrifices those who wish to cause more chaos in a country trying to rise up from the ashes of a devastating war.

Suzaku had gained the Lancelot in ep2 yet it didn't prevent the troops from raiding hangars where unarmed citizens had taken refuge, and prepare for a systematic carnage...only to be stopped by a hostage Clovis. Why? Because the higher-ups (in this case, Clovis) overrule him and going against superiors is a good way to beget death upon oneself (cf. ep1). As a mere shou-i, he has no right or authority to say, 'spare them', especially with people like Cornelia around. The Purist faction will not stand for that either. Britannia doesn't care for civilians - even Cornelia was willing to slaughter an entire ghetto just to lure Zero out. Nothing has changed. While on the other side, even if he uses more direct and radical means and philosophies, Zero has been actively fighting against corruption, smuggling and whatnot, even if there ARE sacrifices to be made.

Remember his line in the early episodes. "I will not shoot him because he's a civilian." He'll kill anyone like those Japan Liberation Forces if they cause disruption to society that will impede any economic and political growth that will advance the Eleven's cause.

He wouldn't shoot Lelouch first and foremost because he was his childhood friend - he'd have been a little more downcast had it not been someone close to him. And his so-called Eleven cause only amounts to helping them becoming Honorary Britannians and blend in, but not helping them better while retaining their cultural and social identity. In other words, his 'efforts' only benefit the HBs, not those left behind...support the strong and forget the weak...hmmm, if I didn't know any better, I'd have said he'd taken a leaf from Wighead's book but the idea's too preposterous to be even considered.

Also, Shirley's father didn't die from a direct consequence by a military action by the "invaders" (Britannia already owns the country. To call them invaders is far from the truth. The war already ended several years before and the invasion was already completed long ago.)

No, indeed.

We should call them occupiers. There is still active, military resistance to Britannia's presence as well as resentment, therefore it's not like it's a total, flawless and bloodless integration of territory and society. As such it's wrong to consider Japan/Area 11 as pacified and unified. And it still doesn't mean you have to accept the Britannian invasion as if nothing had happened. Discrimination is still there, even for Honorary Britannians.

And Suzaku owning Lulu in a fight is very normal since Suzaku is a soldier. Lulu, though he's got the brains, was never a soldier in the first place. Their fighting experience and skills should be lopsided in favor of Suzaku's. You don't become a skilled soldier just by reading manuals.

Kallen obviously did when using the Crimson Lotus, even if she had experience piloting an old, retrofitted Glasgow and a Burai Kai prior to getting the CL2. It's even worse for Suzaku, who had only fought through simulators till then (as HBs cannot pilot live KFs), then took the Lancelot out on his first try like Schumacher in a Ferrari, despite it being a high-performance prototype just out of the Engineering Corps' production plant.




P.S. I believe we're seriously hijacking the thread by bringing the Suzaku topic so I think we should bring our arguments to the Morality thread and leave this place to those who'd prefer to discuss about the events and features of ep13.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

Kallen obviously did when using the Crimson Lotus, even if she had experience piloting an old, retrofitted Glasgow and a Burai Kai prior to getting the CL2. It's even worse for Suzaku, who had only fought through simulators till then, then took the Lancelot on his first try despite it being a high-performance prototype.

IMO it worse for Karen, indeed she had experience of piloting but that frame was completely different form Guren MK.II so that most of the skills are useless. So compared top Suzaku who first real frame is Lancelot she should have more trouble adapting and becoming an ace pilot.
BUt then again these are just stupid details for us idiots that want semirealism.

We chould just "foggedaboutit" and try to enjoy the show. Afterall if only one side has na ace it's never as fun if both sides do.

back on topic

Oh people have pointed out in many places that the color scheme for the "flying pack" on Lancelot in the OP doesn't really fit it but it'd fit Guren MkII more. I won'der what's up with that

[Lackadaisical]

Given the rigid structure of the Britannian society and military, Suzaku is obvious naive about his ability to change Britannia from the inside. Yet, in episode 13, he has managed to become a part of Cornelia's elite corps despite not being Britannian and still being a teenager. Althought critics are quick to insult, his success so far suggests he does have the potential to carry out his dream no matter how unlikely the odds.

Suzaku doesn't have any knowledge of the Geass. Lulu has already noted that he wouldn't be able to succeed without the geass. From Suzaku's point of view, Zero is just pointlessly killing people without a chance to succeed. Suzaku is merely acting in the manner he believes is most likely to bring about peace. It's hardly his fault that he wasn't granted a Super Elite Eye like Lulu. No matter how unlikely his dream, it still is far more likely to be achieved than Lulu's dream of overthrowing the empire if Lulu wasn't granted his eye.

Given their births, their positions should be opposite. Lulu should be attempting to change the empire from within and Suzaku should be leading the resistance. But Lulu suffered an event that turned him against the empire and made him believe it was impossible to change from within. Lulu is only anti-empire because of what happened in his youth. Otherwise he would be just like Clovis, Cornelia, or Euphie. Whether or not he approved of the empire's methods, Lulu would still support its existence.

From his reaction to his father and memories that CC caused, it is obvious that Suzaku suffered some event during an independent Japan that caused him to lose faith in Japan. Suzaku obviously does not believe an independent Japan would ensure peace just as Lulu doesn't believe he could change Britannia from within. If not for what happened in his youth, Suzaku would be as pro-Japan as Touda. Suzaku is only pro-empire because of what happened in his youth. We know why Lulu is against the empire. We don't know yet what was so tragic that turned Suzaku against Japan.

Any viewer can complain about the hypocrisy of Suzaku supporting Britannia, which has hurt so many, while he proclaims the cause of justice. But what if Suzaku doesn't believe the empire is actually any worse in action than Japan before the conquest? If both sides are equally immoral, is his choice so hypocritical? Most viewers are overglorifying Zero's cause. Something occured in the past that caused Suzaku such anguish that he goes berserk when he recalls it. Until we know what that is, it is impossible to determine whether Suzaku is being hypocritical.

We don't yet have the full story on Suzaku. When we find out more information, we'll be able to decide why there is such a contradiction between Suzaku's calls for justice and his support of Britannia. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps he is just an idealistic hypocritic. But I think there is more to be revealed about Suzaku's past and until the full story is told I'm willing to withhold judgement on Suzaku's actions and beliefs.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

So on the other hand, it's okay to get invaded by foreign countries, not fight back but act as subservient lifeforms that are willing to be pushed around into insalubrious getthos while the invaders relish the comforts of first world settlements and life conditions? I fail to see your logic here.

People can still fight back. It just doesn't have to be with a gun. Remember that not all Britannians are as selfish as you think. Meanwhile, most of their actions can be attributed to the fact that due to guerilla action by the Elevens, they will remain distrusted by normal Britannians until they are seen as partners in the Empire who also want to advance the Imperial cause rather than hinder it.

Suzaku might be vouching for use of non-violence but so far he hasn't done anything for his peers. Rather he seems to have forgotten them in favor of pursuing his career as a frontline soldier. He's left his former compatriots to rot in ghettos like Shinjuku and Saitama without even asking favors from Euphemia concerning the Elevens' social betterment and whatnot. To make it short he has done nothing and gained no result to behold so far. He only rises through the echelons but even as a shou-i, he still has no power to wave around for the ideals he seems to uphold.

Changing the world does not happen in a second. Suzaku's climb in the ranks will help in the long-run but as long as people don't understand that, more people will die as a result of military conflagrations. And to ask a favor from Euphemia NOW? That is just child's thinking. If you climb, you do not push things too far that you fall off the mountain. Change that allows civilians to live and hope for a better future with people in government like Euphemia takes a lot of time. Magic medicines that protect the weak from the pain of war do not exist.

Suzaku had gained the Lancelot in ep2 yet it didn't prevent the troops from raiding hangars where unarmed citizens had taken refuge, and prepare for a systematic carnage...only to be stopped by a hostage Clovis. Why? Because the higher-ups (in this case, Clovis) overrule him and going against superiors is a good way to beget death upon oneself (cf. ep1). As a mere shou-i, he has no right or authority to say, 'spare them', especially with people like Cornelia around. The Purist faction will not stand for that either. Britannia doesn't care for civilians - even Cornelia was willing to slaughter an entire ghetto just to lure Zero out. Nothing has changed. While on the other side, even if he uses more direct and radical means and philosophies, Zero has been actively fighting against corruption, smuggling and whatnot, even if there ARE sacrifices to be made.

Those ghettoes were people who LET the local resistance fighters increase in the area. As such, they are accomplices. Just like the soldier said, "That's precisely why. You did nothing."

Also, what can Suzaku do about the battles? Being a lieutenant and doing something reckless with the Lancelot won't get anything else for the Elevens except MORE distrust and hatred from Britannians.

Nothing has changed as of now, but does that mean it won't? Achieving short term goals through violence is less worthy of sympathy when long term goals achieved through cooperation and the least amount of sacrifices can do the job. It just takes time.

He wouldn't shoot Lelouch first and foremost because he was his childhood friend - he'd have been a little more downcast had it not been someone close to him.

And HOW exactly did you read Suzaku's mind. Even before he knew it was Lulu, he said, "stop it so other people won't have to die!" He really doesn't want other people to just needlessly die, whether it be Lulu or any other civilian. He even stopped the execution of a the former Margrave just because it was needless.

And his so-called Eleven cause only amounts to helping them becoming Honorary Britannians and blend in, but not helping them better while retaining their cultural and social identity. In other words, his 'efforts' only benefit the HBs, not those left behind...support the strong and forget the weak...hmmm, if I didn't know any better, I'd have said he'd taken a leaf from Wighead's book but the idea's too ridiculous to be even considered.

What Suzaku is trying to do is to get better social standing so that one day, all Numbers can be Honorary Britannians, or even be accepted AS Britannians.

Cultural and social identity is only a cause of an old order. Those identities are what causes the pathetic wars that exist today. What Suzaku stands for is that we are humans, regardless of what our "previous" identities were. And if he were to succeed, he would have helped his people climb the ladders of society as other Numbers as well.

We should call them occupiers. There is still active, military resistance to Britannia's presence as well as resentment, therefore it's not like it's a total, flawless and bloodless integration of territory and society. And it still doesn't mean you have to accept the Britannian invasion as if nothing had happened. Discrimination is still there, even for Honorary Britannians.

Discrimination and prejudice can be solved through education and by patience. It is still there but can't you get it? Suzaku is doing what he's doing so that the discrimination and prejudice will end.

Kallen obviously did when using the Crimson Lotus, even if she had experience piloting an old, retrofitted Glasgow and a Burai Kai prior to getting the CL2. It's even worse for Suzaku, who had only fought through simulators till then, then took the Lancelot on his first try despite it being a high-performance prototype.

Understand that Suzaku is a trained soldier. He wasn't just some student from high school that suddenly got powers with his eyes. Even if he only fought in simulators prior to using the Lancelot, his body is a TRAINED body. Suzaku's mind is a TRAINED mind. He is a soldier.

So was Kallen, to a lesser extent, but she is more of a militia trained lady.

That's why Lulu will and SHOULD get owned by Suzaku during a battle. Lulu has never and has never hinted any sort of militia or military training before.

P.S. I believe we're seriously hijacking the thread by bringing the Suzaku topic so I think we should bring our arguments to the Morality thread and leave this place to those who'd prefer discuss about the events and features of ep13.

If you may kindly do so. Please forgive my rudeness for not knowing of such a thread. Well, rather than not knowing, it was not looking.

[Owaranai Destiny]

"Meh" at Suzaku calling Lelouch a murderer. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The only difference between them here is that one kills in the name of his vaunted justice with more subtlety, while the other fights for his own belief of justice in a more radical way.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

People can still fight back. It just doesn't have to be with a gun. Remember that not all Britannians are as selfish as you think. Meanwhile, most of their actions can be attributed to the fact that due to guerilla action by the Elevens, they will remain distrusted by normal Britannians until they are seen as partners in the Empire who also want to advance the Imperial cause rather than hinder it.

Well, the earlier episodes did an excellent job at showing that. So far there has been little, if not nothing done to show that most Britannians simply love to discriminate against the Elevens when they can, with Suzaku perhaps being an incoming exception as shown by the episode.

'Advance the Imperial cause'? What cause? Are you talking about their apparent expansionist policies, shown in the episode where Cornelia first appeared in a desert, fighting another nation?

Furthermore, there has always been a natural distrust on Britannia's part. You don't simply come in and start murdering Elevens just because there's suspected terrorist activity in the area if you feel that the oppressed never harboured any feelings of retaliation. It comes with conquest. The problem lies with Britannian mindsets, not the understandable lack of willingness to work with those who have conquered you, crushed your spirit and pride and take away a whole load of your goddamned rights.

Changing the world does not happen in a second. Suzaku's climb in the ranks will help in the long-run but as long as people don't understand that, more people will die as a result of military conflagrations. And to ask a favor from Euphemia NOW? That is just child's thinking. If you climb, you do not push things too far that you fall off the mountain. Change that allows civilians to live and hope for a better future with people in government like Euphemia takes a lot of time. Magic medicines that protect the weak from the pain of war do not exist.

*Shrugs* Some people can wait, some can't. What Suzaku thinks doesn't necessarily affect what other people think, as shown by the JLF and the Black Knights. Most of us here look at the near future, not the distant one. Perhaps that's why Suzaku is drawing more flak than expected.

Those ghettoes were people who LET the local resistance fighters increase in the area. As such, they are accomplices. Just like the soldier said, "That's precisely why. You did nothing."

And what of those who know nothing of them? What about the weak and the defenseless?

If what you say about distrust the Britannians had for Elevens holds true, this just simply ends in a vicious cycle. No questions asked, no quarter given. All Elevens ARE suspects immediately without question. This doesn't serve to give the Elevens any doubts as to whether tyranny is practised here or not.

Nothing has changed as of now, but does that mean it won't? Achieving short term goals through violence is less worthy of sympathy when long term goals achieved through cooperation and the least amount of sacrifices can do the job. It just takes time.

You know, the time factor is the best excuse for Suzaku right now. With long term goals, you don't know when you're going to see any success at all. With short term ones, at least you see some achievement, and those who support you will be able to push on thanks to the amount of confidence garnered. That's what happened with the Black Knights. Only people with the strongest willpower can achieve what Suzaku wants to, which makes it all the more unrealistic for some viewers.

[Majek]

Has Suzaku even killed anyone yet?

[W-General]

Originally Posted by Majek

Has Suzaku even killed anyone yet?

Yeah, all the Knightmare pilots he killed. Actually, also non-pilots too in ep13 - when those people on the deck of Katase's ship - he was part of that "Massacre."

I mean, ya, I give him a little credit for asking his superior to broadcast a surrender suggestion, but when his idea got turned down, he went back to joining the massacre because he's a "professional soldier" and must obey commands.

In the end, it all comes down to Suzaku being all talk and not following up on his words. He's just using his 'change Britannia' rhetoric to justify what he's doing, which isn't being very helpful, helping Britannia with all the death and destruction.

He needs to either wake up, or die.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

"Meh" at Suzaku calling Lelouch a murderer. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The only difference between them here is that one kills in the name of his vaunted justice with more subtlety, while the other fights for his own belief of justice in a more radical way.

One person's sense of justice is vaunted in the eyes of another. Suzaku kills fighters and tries to save as many as he can. Lelouch kills fighters while getting other people caught in his radical antics.

Well, the earlier episodes did an excellent job at showing that. So far there has been little, if not nothing done to show that most Britannians simply love to discriminate against the Elevens when they can, with Suzaku perhaps being an incoming exception as shown by the episode.

Euphemia. The Britannian Student Council.

Acceptance is slow, but it still happens.

'Advance the Imperial cause'? What cause? Are you talking about their apparent expansionist policies, shown in the episode where Cornelia first appeared in a desert, fighting another nation?

It maybe expansionist now, but if Suzaku is able to change the empire, who's to say that the Imperial cause won't change. That is what Suzaku is fighting for.

Furthermore, there has always been a natural distrust on Britannia's part. You don't simply come in and start murdering Elevens just because there's suspected terrorist activity in the area if you feel that the oppressed never harboured any feelings of retaliation. It comes with conquest. The problem lies with Britannian mindsets, not the understandable lack of willingness to work with those who have conquered you, crushed your spirit and pride and take away a whole load of your goddamned rights.

This is the mindset that Suzaku wants to change by serving in an outstanding manner. He is sacrificing himself by being called a traitor while he himself is working towards the improvement of his people.

*Shrugs* Some people can wait, some can't. What Suzaku thinks doesn't necessarily affect what other people think, as shown by the JLF and the Black Knights. Most of us here look at the near future, not the distant one. Perhaps that's why Suzaku is drawing more flak than expected.

Yes, I agree. It is because of some people's shortsightedness that they cannot see what Suzaku is trying to do. I do understand that people lack patience for what Suzaku's goals are, BUT does that make them any better or more righteous than Suzaku is? THAT is what I ask of you.

And what of those who know nothing of them? What about the weak and the defenseless?

They are simply collateral damage. I don't like what has happened, but it would never have happened had the insurgents just stayed out of the ghettoes and fought elsewhere. In the end, the weak were supposed to be the insurgent's "shields" against the empire. Unfortunately, the empire is smarter than that.

So the insurgents could even be called the root cause of those people's deaths. Understand that even the JLF fought in areas where civilians were unlikely to get caught. Those ragtag insurgents had no such honor to fight elsewhere.

If what you say about distrust the Britannians had for Elevens holds true, this just simply ends in a vicious cycle. No questions asked, no quarter given. All Elevens ARE suspects immediately without question. This doesn't serve to give the Elevens any doubts as to whether tyranny is practised here or not.

And THAT is why Suzaku is serving the Empire. To STOP that vicious cycle of distrust and discrimination.

You know, the time factor is the best excuse for Suzaku right now. With long term goals, you don't know when you're going to see any success at all. With short term ones, at least you see some achievement, and those who support you will be able to push on thanks to the amount of confidence garnered. That's what happened with the Black Knights. Only people with the strongest willpower can achieve what Suzaku wants to, which makes it all the more unrealistic for some viewers.

Yes, that is true. Not a lot of people can see beyond their meal for the day, a home for tonight, and the comforts of now.

But it is because Suzaku requires very strong willpower to achieve what he wants that makes his character intriguing to me.

It is far easier to hold a gun up the head of another person to change him than it is to show him that nothing can be gained by discrimination and prejudice.

Lelouch is taking the easy way out which I feel is quite common, real world or not. Suzaku is taking the harder path to his dreams. If he achieves his goals, then that would leave a good taste in my mouth.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by W-General

Yeah, all the Knightmare pilots he killed. Actually, also non-pilots too in ep13 - when those people on the deck of Katase's ship - he was part of that "Massacre."

I mean, ya, I give him a little credit for asking his superior to broadcast a surrender suggestion, but when his idea got turned down, he went back to joining the massacre because he's a "professional soldier" and must obey commands.

In the end, it all comes down to Suzaku being all talk and not following up on his words. He's just using his 'change Britannia' rhetoric to justify what he's doing, which isn't being very helpful, helping Britannia with all the death and destruction.

He needs to either wake up, or die.

Umm... massacre? Those people on the ship were soldiers for the JLF. Their acts of subversion will already get them killed. It can't be a massacre if they are soldiers that are firing bullets back.

Also...

Spoiler:

Lulu killed them all, not Suzaku.

[FSNxPhantom]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Changing the world does not happen in a second.

Just a reminder to everyone, there is one exception to that: Lelouche. Remember right before he killed Clovis he said that he was the second in line to the throne, and all he has to do is get rid of the first line to the throne, which I think which I think was Clovis. The fall of one king leads to the rise of another.

Besides, one reason why Lelouche will never do what Suzaku does (changing Britannia from the inside) is because there are people that will recognize him. Presumably, he is considered "dead," but there are those that will know him (Clovis, Cornelia, etc.). He would never want them to figure out that he is alive because if he does, he puts the risk of putting his sister in danger, and that is the last thing he wants to happen. The only choice (that I can conclude) is that he has to change it from the outside without anyone knowing his true self.

What Suzaku says and what he does contradicts eachother somewhat, but not much because he said that he doesn't want "Civilian Casualties," not "Terrorists." And this is my conclusion and understanding from all that has happen.

P.S. - no more Suzaku talk. Everyone has his/her own thoughts about CG. Even if this is a discussion thread, it is about the episode itself and speculations, not major criticisms that can be argued, might I say, forever.

-Signed out

[Eleutheria]

Originally Posted by quina

A lot of people actually like her music. She also sings one of the Blood+ OP.
We will see how it turns out in this one. So Stop whining when you havn't even listen to the whole song.. (that stupid preview gives you like a min in it).

Sorry to be disagreeing with you again (just did so in the spoiler/speculation thread), but pretty much the only people who will download buy the OP single are those who like what they hear in the episode... that and the "full versions" you get on CDs are essentially the same thing as the TV size:

Verse 1 (TV Size)
Verse 2
Verse 3
Bridge, Modulation, Vocals/Instrumental
Verse 4
End

That said, my personal bias was "1. Erg. I hate this song, but I'll see what spoilers Sunrise is putting in the OP. 2. Argh, it's the same stuff. 3. They're shoehorning the OP to fit into the song!

It's not a bad song, but it is completely out of step with the animation (e.g. the lancelot key scene)

------------------

Misc Thoughts:

1) Cornellia, saved by the bell, again. She needs to give up, people on losing streaks in Sunrise series stay on losing streaks, until they either die or convert to the main character's cause.

2) Can't believe Karen blushed when seeing Zero half naked. Or perhaps it was the tights. Lulu was half naked and in tights.

3) Every time I read somebody posting "Has Lulu geassed Shirley"? I see "Has Lulu goosed Shirley?"

4) How the hell did Britain with 300-500 years of parliamentary sovereignty turn into a King-ruled Britannia? Just a Britannia I can understand (lol) but not one ruled by an Emperor.

5) Not going to step into/wade into the Suzaku/Lulu Means/Ends argument, but the director is really doing his job if the series is stimulating such conversation. There was a bit in an interview where he described the archetypes that each character stood for and how one could make a case for each standpoint.




P.S. Owaranai Destiny: Is your sig a collage? If it is, isn't the one on the far left a TRAP?

[Freeter]

New OP easily beats out "Wings of Words" for worst intro song in a Sunrise series. I've seen fanmade intros better than that.

Not really digging Athrun/Kira hybrid at the moment. CC needs to jack into his head again and make him self-destruct