[Discussion] Episode Rating Polls.

[felix]

Not really anything that should be changed just a little public discussion on the subject.
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In regards to polls I'm a little skeptical as to how they help the threads..
..and personally can't see the positive side, hence this lil' thread ^^

Some simple question..

1. Why is there a generalised system for all series?.. some of which are so interwined rating them by episode properly (even seeing ALL of the episodes in advance) is kind of.. impossible.
(you can take the question as: Is there more motivation for this then convenience?.. if you wish.)

2. Why are there both numbers and words used to express the rating. Doesn't this cause more confusion, since it's very unlikely people will fully agree with the pairing.. hence might end up more often then not ignoring one or the other, which means you now are looking at 2 polls in one. (with 1 chart showing total results)

3. Why are there "negative" values there.. and even more importantly, why are there so many levels to them. Does discussion = criticising & nit-picking, only.

4. Why is the grading system (either with words like "Good" etc or numbers) better then the alternatives. (like simple question: Did you like it? Yes|No|Not Sure)
I can understand things like rating the entire series/season.

5. Why must discussion threads have polls in the first place.. wouldn't there be more discussion/potential for discussion without them?
Because, 1) by adding polls you are removing many why-I-liked-the-episode posts, and 2) one may come to the thread and seeing huge amount of bias on Perfect doesn't post his *uhm* harsher opinions for fear of either starting a flame war or getting bashed. -- I know this is a little evil since obviously, he'll still get bashed one way or the other ^^

6. What exactly are you expecting people to rate.. quality + story, personal feelings for the episode, "production-value".. biased opinion? (j/k on the last one xP)
Basically the question is.. at the end of the day, can we decipher their meaning?

[Aoie_Emesai]

Personally I don't think it helps a bit, but rather like you said it's a rating system for the current episode.

1.) Not sure, to standardized a system in which... ahh what ever, unity.

2.) You can never make a poll with enough options for every user to agree on, but only through modifications through heated debates can you truly make a agreeable poll

6.) For me, it's what took placed within that episode.

[wingdarkness]

Let people vote on polls, sheeesh....Some people just want to give a numerical value to make a point...There will always be those who lack substance in evaluating an ep regardless of whether or not there is a poll...And while polls can sometimes curtail discussion it can conversely also boost discussion and is a helpful tool for people who just want to get a extremely fast gauge on how an episode may be...Finally people can rate episodes based on their own criteria which is what pretty much happens in all facets (Those with scruples can separate quality opinions from pi$$ed off fanboy opinions)...So I won't disagree that they are the golden standard in the anime community or anything, but they serve their purpose...No need to tamper with them IMO...

[monir]

I know at least one person who will agree with Cats in these particular thoughts. Probably not for the exact same reason outlined by Cats, but nonetheless, will put a smile on that person's face.

For me, I find polls interesting. I can make a lot observation about a person's thought process or by a group-of-people just by watching what sort of grades/numbers chosen, and if I'm lucky enough, that person also have his/her thought posted in that particular episode discussion thread for me to have a fairly accurate observation behind those thought process. Yeah, I like to get inside people's head. I didn't vote for Bush though..... Onward to Cats:

Reply to 5: Why musn't?.... because Cats reasoning doesn't make much sense to me...

Reply to 3: I seriously disagree with that particular thinking process behind that question. This thought process is also embedded in a lot of section of the forums and threads. I'm thankful for almost any form of criticism if I can recognize their validity attached to a medium. I mean, how many people actually complain about the 99% of the positives that are out there for most shows in this forum? Critcising is a difficult thing to do, and constructive criticism is even more difficult. If one isn't careful with the coice of wording, it will get a lot of people riled up, and even with the most superior choice of words, there will be someone who will disagree. So, how many will endeavor to undertake a criticism volunatrily? Not many. How many will vote in a poll where the option 1-5 describe an episode Painful to Bad? A lot~

Reply to 6: This point is completely irrelevant from my personal point view. The poll isn't there so I can observe if a particular episode has met my expectation in according to the poll. I don't give a hoot about what other people think about an episode. If I like it, I'll stick by it no matter if 99% of the people voted it's the worst. If I hate it.. then... yeah. My expectation doesn't have anything to do with the poll. The poll is there for me to express my opinion, and in turn, become the part of the collective opinion for that option. I don't usually see the poll result before voting for it, and if I did look at it before voting in it, then I probably didn't have any intention voting in it. Besides, one is should always watch an episode before checking out the poll, or worst, vote on it without watching the episode. Fortunately, the number of people that do it seems to be in the low count.

Response to 1: Because it's so darn easy for a moderator who may have to create 3-4 threads in a day.

[KiNA]

Originally Posted by Cats

[SIZE="1"]
4. Why is the grading system (either with words like "Good" etc or numbers) better then the alternatives. (like simple question: Did you like it? Yes|No|Not Sure)
I can understand things like rating the entire series/season.

8 and Above = Yes
above 5, below 8 = Not Sure
below 5 = No

Like monir, its kinda fun to watched a collective peoples opinion on a particular episode without reading the whole thread(L*S episodes threads generates posts faster then what I can read).. For peoples like me, who have our torrent throttled, I get slow download speed (unless popular series like Bleach and Naruto - which have a large following here, so more local peers), so by glancing the poll result gives me overview of the episodes, also .. I think I have noted a few members that usually have similar taste with me, and if he have rated the episode, he's giving an overall impression before I even watch the episode.

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by monir

I know at least one person who will agree with Cats in these particular thoughts. Probably not for the exact same reason outlined by Cats, but nonetheless, will put a smile on that person's face.

True. I am smiling to see some shared dislike of polls, though some of my reasons are a bit different.

My dislike of polls is primarily because they stifle actual discussion. People seem to think that rating a thread is as good as actually talking about it. Sometimes posts actually replace discussion with a bandying of numbers. Recently I suffered through this charming exchange in the Claymore ep 7 discussion:

Spoiler for no real spoilers. Mostly this is just to save space.:

Originally Posted by Mentar

Oh wow, that was great.

The only reason why I'm stopping at the 9 was that traditionally, to pull a 10 I demand something particularly outstanding and surprising with tremendous impact, and I'll probably draw it in ep8... but it was already scratching at that in this one too.

Originally Posted by dutchman

I gave it a 9 for the same reasons others before me stated. I know this is only the start of the best to come.

So I can't give it a 10 yet otherwise I won't be able to give a higher mark in the upcoming episodes

Originally Posted by wrex_japan

Yeah, I gave it a 9 too... but maybe I should've given it a 10...

Who needs words when you can use numbers? Right? I've noticed that when a poll is there to encourage people to say "9" or "10" they actually settle for such superficial dialogue even if they are otherwise articulate normally.

[4Tran]

I largely agree with NoSanninWa here. There's two main problems with polls stifling discussion: sometimes, the more active posters end up discussing the poll results rather than the merits of the show at hand; and the less active posters have a greater tendency to use a rating vote as a substitute for discussion altogether. As a rule, I don't tend to vote in polls.

On a more personal note, I've generally never found internet polls to be very constructive to begin with. Opinions aren't really that big a deal to begin with, but at least with a written post, there's some room for justifying one's opinions. A poll number, on the other hand, tells us precisely nothing. Moreover, people tend to judge things on a very different scale.

Look at Kira_Naruto's scale for example:
"8 and Above = Yes
above 5, below 8 = Not Sure
below 5 = No"

On the other hand, I would give out 6s and 7s for episodes I liked, I would rarely rate an episode 8 or higher.

[felix]

Originally Posted by monir

Reply to 5: Why musn't?.... because Cats reasoning doesn't make much sense to me...

Well I don't want to say rating has no meaning, since in a way it is a thinking process.

But wouldn't it be better to just have an extra thread for polling. Something like, make 1 thread, and every new episode change the thread title, save the poll results in the first post (copy paste seems to work, example bellow) and reset it. People can use that thread for short-reviews, long-reviews, and techy number crunching as well as blog like posts, and we can have discussions, debates, theories and future even speculation in the other.

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Misc. Note -- Something that is not very well known is that the multi-quote tool is also a cross thread quoting tool. So if for say there was something very interesting in the rating thread, it could be very easily quoted in the other. (but if it was that interesting chances are it was also off-topic there ) How to use: Multy Quote the post, now if you go to the thread you want to actually post something in adv. mode you should see a little message under the text-box: You have selected 1 post that is not part of this thread. Quote this post as well, or deselect this post. (what's in blue would be links)

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Originally Posted by monir

Response to 1: Because it's so darn easy for a moderator who may have to create 3-4 threads in a day.

Technically the way I described it above should be far easier for you, since you would not be creating a poll each time, like I said, simple copy/edit/past (+pre tag for style) And it only requires 1 thread per series, which at the end of the series can be turned into a General Series Review&Rating thread, to continue to be useful.

But maybe I'm just biased by the little series-spoiler problem and think it would be better just because I want a thread to read opinions and uhh.. "passivly" discuss things, when I watch a series with novels/manga/games...... and a thread devoid of techy-analysis for the non-spoilable ones.


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Example copy/paste sola poll. (+pre tag)

Perfect 10                 40      54.79%
9 out of 10 : Excellent           25       34.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good           8      10.96%
7 out of 10 : Good             0     0%
6 out of 10 : Average               0    0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average     0     0%
4 out of 10 : Poor             0     0%
3 out of 10 : Bad               0    0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad             0     0%
1 out of 10 : Painful               0    0%

[Daniel E.]

Just out of curiosity.... these rating polls, they started out in the Higurashi section, no?

[felix]

I think I remember earlier series that had them.

[Shay]

Is it not possible to add an "enable/disable" function for polls? Or does that just defeat the purpose of this thread as they will actually still be there regardless?

Personally, I couldn't care less.

[Jinto]

And whats more important... why isn't here a poll to vote how we think about it.

Actually I think polls are overrated

Then again, things like taste I wouldn't want to discuss anyway, so there a poll might be a good idea.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

And whats more important... why isn't here a poll to vote how we think about it.

Actually I think polls are overrated

Then again, things like taste I wouldn't want to discuss anyway, so there a poll might be a good idea.

Do you mean, like a poll to rate what we think of this subject, Jinto?

[felix]

No he meant it as a joke, as in a poll to decide whether its right or wrong, thus turning this into some kind of one sided debate, by proving unsupported leverage for one side. Just like with the episode poll, which basically label the episode as right or wrong, without any meaningful reason.


I already said in the OP, this is to be a discussion and a place to share ideas on the subject, and not a decision making thread.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai

Do you mean, like a poll to rate what we think of this subject, Jinto?

LOL, Yeah this topic really needs a poll xD...

Heh, put it to a vote...

[CrowKenobi]

What really puts the kibosh on these polls is when baka trolls go and vote a '1' in every episode thread poll (even in episodes that haven't aired yet! ).

baka trolls

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by monir

I know at least one person who will agree with Cats in these particular thoughts. Probably not for the exact same reason outlined by Cats, but nonetheless, will put a smile on that person's face.

Make it two, my view on polls are pretty much exactly the same than NoSanninWa's.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Cats

In regards to polls I'm a little skeptical as to how they help the threads..

Probably mentioned, but anyways....

Polls can be useful in many ways. For instance, if a series is going through a painful period (e.g., Naruto), and you want to get the general idea of the way the anime is going, you can check the poll results and see whether it is better than expected, getting better or getting worse, etc. With so many options, you can see the diversity, and separate the quality viewers than the pre-teen-type (not actually pre-teen, but the type that likes anything given) viewers. Additionally, if you know the voters (the way they rate the story - you can get that idea if you have read their posts for some time), and have a general idea of how they approach the anime (quality- and story-wise), you can see their votes and get a really accurate idea of the anime - from many perspective.

4. Why is the grading system (either with words like "Good" etc or numbers) better then the alternatives. (like simple question: Did you like it? Yes|No|Not Sure)

Just ask yourself that question? If you want to buy a record, which kind of review do you find as more useful, if you have to check a lot of sources - just like/dislike rating - or an average of 1-10 scale rating? If I were to given a choice between those two, I prefer the 1-10 scaling system, which gives a better information on the quality.

If you know the site RottenTomatoes, they actually combine both rating systems, as the number of positives (more like - positive and negative or like and dislike), and the average rating (1-10 or F-A or *-****). This way, they can give a better idea on the product.

In short, "I like" cannot differentiate between, great/good/not-bad/, and "I dislike" cannot differentiate between awful/bad/not-good. With the grading system, you can balance your options on how you can evaluate the anime.

[Sorrow-K]

NoSanninWa said it best. I think polls and ratings have their place when discussing the entire series, but not for individual episodes. As NoSanninWa points out, they make the discussion trite as people try to justify the reasons behind what is a rather course rating system anyway. The problem with rating episodes is that episodes tend to be merely individual pieces in a much bigger puzzle. Outstanding series will have the occassional crap episode that turn out to be, later down the road, essential to the larger story, while mediocre series may have the odd entertaining episode that turns out to be a momentary distraction from the rest of the stink pile.

Polls are always top heavy as well. I think a poll loses its meaning as a critical gauge when over half of its respondents give a rating which is supposedly reserved for something "perfect". Virtually nothing is that good. I think I've seen probably less than five episodes all of last year that I'd consider worthy of a top score and nothing that I'd consider "perfect" (perfection isn't something that's tangible anyway, and certainly not in anime... "better than the rest" or "as good as it gets"... sure, but not "perfect"). This also shows that numbers and words have different meanings for different people, but I don't that's a huge issue in a rating scale as course as this.

I'm not sure if I'd advocate getting rid of them, since I can't be any more than speculative regarding what sort of impact it'd make in the discussion surrounding episodes. Maybe you guys should trial it in one of the forums. But, personally, I don't take any notice of single episode polls and I don't vote in them. The way an episode contributes to the greater story of an entire series is far more important than the momentary enjoyment from it. That's the attitude I take, which is why I don't see the point in rating individual eps. Although I do think discussion of ratings of entire series do have their place.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

NoSanninWa said it best. I think polls and ratings have their place when discussing the entire series, but not for individual episodes.

That depends on the series. If some series shows a lot of variations in episode-wise quality, you can use the rating system to evaluate that episode or to see how the series is going. For short series, or series that do not have any meaning at all (like classic harem-based series), the episode-based ratings do not mean a lot, but for other series, it may be completely opposite.

Polls are always top heavy as well. I think a poll loses its meaning as a critical gauge when over half of its respondents give a rating which is supposedly reserved for something "perfect".

There is another side to that rating. Those people may give 1 to a really good episode, if they expect action and see a highly-emotional or serious episode. If the system could have automatically eliminated those kind of ratings (from a human-based perspective, you can ask the person who has voted to list their reasons, and if the reasons are not logical, you can just remove their vote), you could get a pretty accurate rating for the series, but that will not happen. But, at least, if there is lots of diversity in the opinions, you can get an idea of what kind of episode it is, based on people's expectations.