(L) Girls und Panzer

[Marina2]

Not really a bad plan to follow PanzerIII, If Miho wants to lure Black Forest to fight in the urban area, anything that running/sneaking inside the area itself is danger for Ooarai.

Who the hell will normally park MAUS in the area like that, anyway.

[Julio C]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

If it was anything else but a Maus, Miho's seven tanks would be able to take care of it and the Panzer III. Thus there was no reason for caution on Miho's part.

The Maus has to be a new addition. Not only would Miho have been thinking "where is the Maus" if they did, but Yukari would have seen one move before if anyone what operating the thing (she's the tank nut, so she watches the finals. She's never seen one move before). And a Maus would certainly stop any Pravda tanks. Even their IS-2 wouldn't go through that thing's armor. It is armored as thick as a pre-Great War Armored Cruiser, those would basically be battleship designed cruisers with armor as thick as their main armaments. Those usually being 8 inch guns. While a Maus has basically a 5 inch gun, its armor is much thicker than that.

I was surprised that Miho didn't see it as a trap. She assumed that there was only one tank roaming around the city as a scout and wanted to take it out before re-grouping with the rest. This clearly indicates that Miho did not know about the Maus in the first place. They must have acquired it very recently, and kept it under wraps until the final.

So not even the KV-2 (the one Yukari called the giant) would had dent the Maus?

[Ithekro]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

Just knew...if they already know from some time ago they most likely already prepared a counter for that monster...does Russia have a counter for that monster?

Originally Posted by Julio C

So not even the KV-2 (the one Yukari called the giant) would had dent the Maus?

In a word: No.

In more words: The Soviets probably could have dealt with the Maus with very heavy artillery fire, heavy rockets, or aircraft bombing it. I don't know what the top armor is like on the Maus, but there appear to be lots of vents up there.

Pravda on the other hand....not a single hope for tanks up to August 15, 1945. I'm not sure the guns on the SU-100Y Self-Propelled Gun, or ISU-152 can penetrate a minimum of 190 mm of german steel with the rounds they used during the war (as oppose to some of the things they didn't use or came up with after the war).

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

In a word: No.

In more words: The Soviets probably could have dealt with the Maus with very heavy artillery fire, heavy rockets, or aircraft bombing it. I don't know what the top armor is like on the Maus, but there appear to be lots of vents up there.

Pravda on the other hand....not a single hope for tanks up to August 15, 1945. I'm not sure the guns on the SU-100Y Self-Propelled Gun, or ISU-152 can penetrate a minimum of 190 mm of german steel with the rounds they used during the war (as oppose to some of the things they didn't use or came up with after the war).

Here is a gun penetration table for WWII Soviet guns in service up to the end of the war.

If you check the penetration values for the 122 mm D25 and M1938 guns, the HEAT round available would be able to (if just barely) penetrate the front and side hull armour, so it would be possible to kill a Maus with maneuvering and flanking attacks.

The American M3 tank gun could do the same plus the turret armour if using HVAP, although the T15E2 is a better choice for that. Guns that would work almost certainly would be the 120 mm T53 and 155 mm T7 guns on the T29 and T30 (using HVAP), looking at these tables.

[Ithekro]

The HEAT penetration specifies it as post war shells that could make it to 200mm, with the in war version only going in 160mm.

Their 122mm APCBC and 100mm (D-10) BR-412 APHE shells might penetrate at point blank range.

Which means the IS-2 and SU-122 are about all they can use. Maybe the SU-100 and SU-100Y. And all those are iffy. The SU-100 might be their best chance without resorting to post-war HEAT specs.


Or they purchase a Tiger II. That long 88mm will punch a Maus at at least reasonable ranges.

[panzerfan]

8.8 cm KwK 43 should Penetrate the Maus from the rear at around 1km or so. Frontally at around 500m. Honestly, you pretty much should have another one of these 128mm gun touting tanks such as the Jagdtiger to realistically engage the Maus frontally from 1km.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by aldw

Here is a gun penetration table for WWII Soviet guns in service up to the end of the war.

If you check the penetration values for the 122 mm D25 and M1938 guns, the HEAT round available would be able to (if just barely) penetrate the front and side hull armour, so it would be possible to kill a Maus with maneuvering and flanking attacks.

The American M3 tank gun could do the same plus the turret armour if using HVAP, although the T15E2 is a better choice for that. Guns that would work almost certainly would be the 120 mm T53 and 155 mm T7 guns on the T29 and T30 (using HVAP), looking at these tables.

Be careful about that last page - it is for a AU with realistic but not necessarily real values (look at the top mention of the "Dominion" or the AU tank names).

According to other sites, The BR-460A 122mm HEAT was in service by 1944, so they could have used that. There was also a BR-540 152mm HEAT that "wasn't used during the war", but then neither was the Maus.

But then, for the heavy Soviet guns, they often rely less on penetration than spalling or moving the enemy's turret with the sheer force and momentum of the round, so they might try that against the Maus.

By the way, let this be a lesson to world leaders. Occasionally, make a completely impractical weapon or weapon with stats you know you couldn't make work. Just make one and test it just once or twice. In some far off game in the far off future, someone might just be willing to credit it as a legitimate and historical weapon from your country...

8.8 cm KwK 43 should Penetrate the Maus from the rear at around 1km or so. Frontally at around 500m. Honestly, you pretty much should have another one of these 128mm gun touting tanks such as the Jagdtiger to realistically engage the Maus frontally from 1km.

Well, according to the Encylopedia of German Tanks that I have, ironically it is the 88mm/71 and its ammo combinations that has better penetration - the 128 "tops out" at close range at under 200mm (dbl check when I get back) though of course 128mm like the Russian heavies would likely have superior spalling and dislocation effects.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Or they purchase a Tiger II. That long 88mm will punch a Maus at at least reasonable ranges.

A Super Pershing or T29 could do a better job though.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Be careful about that last page - it is for a AU with realistic but not necessarily real values (look at the top mention of the "Dominion" or the AU tank names).

I know the guys who did the research for that page and their source materials for that matter also, so I'm more than willing to trust the posted values, especially since they've been compiling tank and other military hardware data since the 1990's or earlier (some contributors also being engineers or ex-military).

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

8.8 cm KwK 43 should Penetrate the Maus from the rear at around 1km or so. Frontally at around 500m. Honestly, you pretty much should have another one of these 128mm gun touting tanks such as the Jagdtiger to realistically engage the Maus frontally from 1km.

How many mm of steal, that 88mm KwK 43 can penatrate at 500m since the Maus's upper front is effective as 300mm and lower front is around 230mm.

[whitecloud]

is multiple shot to the (near) same spot useless?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by whitecloud

is multiple shot to the (near) same spot useless?

Very hard to accomplish. The enemy isn't generally going to sit there and let you pound away at them, and if you're smart you're not going to be sitting there to let them not let you do so. As a result, getting repeated hits on the same spot is a very difficult proposition.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by aldw

I know the guys who did the research for that page and their source materials for that matter also, so I'm more than willing to trust the posted values, especially since they've been compiling tank and other military hardware data since the 1990's or earlier (some contributors also being engineers or ex-military).

IMHO, in a sense it is this kind of "realistic, done-their-homework fiction" that is the most dangerous. You know (or at least think) they did their work, so you are inclined to trust them as if the data they provide is real. And a lot of it may well be. But if they decide to "tweak" something for story purposes, well, you'll be the last to know because it is so realistic the new curve looks just as natural as the real one and your BS filters don't work.

I just said to be careful, that's all.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Very hard to accomplish. The enemy isn't generally going to sit there and let you pound away at them, and if you're smart you're not going to be sitting there to let them not let you do so. As a result, getting repeated hits on the same spot is a very difficult proposition.

Besides, remember, this is Senshado. They generally have trouble hitting tanks, let alone doing this kind of stunt.

[Sumeragi]

It's not just Senshado, it's realism.

[00Coyote]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Very hard to accomplish. The enemy isn't generally going to sit there and let you pound away at them, and if you're smart you're not going to be sitting there to let them not let you do so. As a result, getting repeated hits on the same spot is a very difficult proposition.

Multiple HESH (or HEP) rounds to the same general area would probably lead to spalling of the interior armor, without penetrating it, but those are probably not approved rounds for a match.

The most effective round Ooari could use against the Maus? Paint. A blind Maus is an ineffective Maus.

3 blind Maus, see how they run (through buildings)....

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by 00Coyote

The most effective round Ooari could use against the Maus? Paint. A blind Maus is an ineffective Maus.

Oh dear, if this is the final Kelly's Heroes tribute I will love them forever.

[Wild Goose]

On repeated hits to the same spot: You might be able to do it with an Abrams, a Leopard 2 or a Type-10, but it wouldn't be easy, even with that super accurate gun, gyro-stabilisation, and laser rangefinder. Though I'd think the silver bullet sabot shells they're carrying would be able to hurt the Maus.

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

Oh dear, if this is the final Kelly's Heroes tribute I will love them forever.

Especially since the way the Maus showed up and then wasn't (initially) able to fire was because its gun was blocked by someone's house.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Re: Kelly's Heroes.

Only question would be whether the Senshado organizers allow paint rounds.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

On repeated hits to the same spot: You might be able to do it with an Abrams, a Leopard 2 or a Type-10, but it wouldn't be easy, even with that super accurate gun, gyro-stabilisation, and laser rangefinder. Though I'd think the silver bullet sabot shells they're carrying would be able to hurt the Maus.

Someone on another forum said an Abrams' main gun would blow right through a Maus. No specific evidence was cited, but I have no real reason to doubt it. Armor, and the techniques to defeat it, have come a fair way in the last 70 years.

The most effective round Ooari could use against the Maus? Paint. A blind Maus is an ineffective Maus.

If Usagi-san team blinds the Maus with paint rounds, I will be willing to officially declare that their moment of awesome.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Tak

That was brilliant. It also shows Maho had been studying. Either that, or she knows exactly what her sister is going to pull due to their longtime partnership.

Miho's past strategies consisted of the same tactic, which partially contributed to her victories against Saunders & Pravda.

- Tak

Yeah, that's true. It seems that for all of Maho's aloofness, she's nonetheless taken a keen interest in Miho's progress.

I think it's clear that whatever interpretation we may want to draw from the analysis of the team's onscreen actions, that from a dramatic perspective we're meant to respect Black Forest both for their record, their traditional skills, and their equipment (goody goody, german toys!).

Ooarai's eventual triumph requires that Black Forest be a worthy opponent for their unorthodox tactics and unique team fighting spirit.

[John117xCortana]

They allowed HE rounds. I think they'd allow paint rounds.