Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

And as I understood it, yeah, it just freed her from her connection to that. The Holy Grail thing is a result of modifications to her physical body, not a mystical link that Rule Breaker could sever. It just broke her link to the Grail energies she was channeling, so while she's still a 'Grail', there's just nothing to fill her anymore.

Except Shirou.

God, that was awful.

EDIT: Page claim for filthy innuendo!

Ah, her body itself was made into a 'Grail' - I knew that! Haha. But I remember in the True End that they said Sakura was still absorbing magical energy because she was a 'Grail' and that's how Rider was still around and how Shirou was able to maintain his fake body or whatever it was.

And how Shirou survived was a real stretch. Why could they have just found him outside the temple covered in blades all beaten up (speaking of, I really wished we had got a shot of him with the blades on his skin).

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Ah, her body itself was made into a 'Grail' - I knew that! Haha. But I remember in the True End that they said Sakura was still absorbing magical energy because she was a 'Grail' and that's how Rider was still around and how Shirou was able to maintain his fake body or whatever it was.
.

Well, I think that what happened there was that she still had a lot of excess power from Angra Mainyu, breaking the link just stopped any new power from coming in. And with Zouken's worms gone, her own Magic Circuits were back up to full function too, so between the two she had enough magic to keep Rider and Doll!Shirou supported.

I think.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Well, I think that what happened there was that she still had a lot of excess power from Angra Mainyu, breaking the link just stopped any new power from coming in. And with Zouken's worms gone, her own Magic Circuits were back up to full function too, so between the two she had enough magic to keep Rider and Doll!Shirou supported.

I think.

Ah, that does make sense. But then that means she has more mana than Rin. Unless Rin was really being a full tsundere in the good end of UBW when she told Shirou he will help her supply Saber with energy. That was a really funny scene.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Shirou is pretty lucky in HA.

Spoiler for HA:

Well, he only actually has sex with them in side-scenes, which aren't part of the main story, and they're all seperate, so the Shirou who is involved in one is not the same as the Shirou in the others. I think.

I actually knew right off the bat that Rin was hiding behind a shell. You knew from UBW that she isn't a cold hearted bitch so there is a reason for her to act like one in HF.

Well, it's obvious from how she acts from the moment they discover the truth (and, indeed, even before that) that she's hiding befind a shell, just from how she acts. When she goes to the Matou house, she castigates herself for not going to visit Sakura sooner, and every time she speaks to her or about her you can tell that she is trying to pretend not to care.

But, that is why her actions seem so moronic to me, because they make things worse and she doesn't believe a word of what she says.

Also, she did grow up with Sakura until they are like six or seven, right? So she has some memory of them being true sisters, so with that and her confession of always Sakura, you knew she cared for her.

Well, IIRC Sakura moved out when Rin was five. The game also says that neither of them remembers their times together, but they both knew they were sisters and Rin used to watch over her.

She just didn't think there was a way of saving her without killing her. And Rin had no way of saving her, other than killing her. Only Shirou was able to, when he (predictably) made the Rule Breaker (or whatever it's called) to free her.

Well, the only time she actually chose to kill Sakura (in MoS), there was no real reason why she had to do it at that point. However, Rin had indeed convinced herself that it was the only option (what she said to Shirou about needing someone to act as her 'brakes' and (later on) about not being willing to attempt something she thought was impossible is relevant here), hence why she was able to go through with it (although in doing so she breaks entirely and adopts the "true magus" facade, going all out to win the Grail).

In the final battle, Rin did not really believe that she was going to have to kill Sakura. She wasn't necessarily sure what Shirou intended to do, but she knew he wouldn't be going in there to fight (especially not with Rider's help) if he didn't intend to save Sakura. So, Rin was caught in two minds between waiting for Shirou to show up and save her, and finishing the battle quickly by killing Sakura. But, because Rin had hope in that battle, she couldn't bring herself to kill Sakura, so she did that whole "I don't give a shit about your suffering" speech as an attempt to convince herself that she could do it after she decided it was necessary. Of course, it didn't work, pissed off Sakura (who was pretty much on the point of giving up before that speech) and (in the bad end) earnt her several years worth of simulated worm rape....

Speaking of... they Rule Breaker freed her from everything except being a holy grail, right? I didn't understand that really. I thought it would have made her completely free from everything that Zouken did to her. It only freed her from Anru Magryu (sp?) then?

Rule Breaker broke the contract that had formed between Sakura and Angra Mainyu, allowing her to be free of his control. I guess the connection to the Grail was not one that Rule Breaker was capable of breaking, or else Shirou never stabbed her in the "right place" to cut that connection.

I don't see Sakura intentionally making fun of Shirou.

I can see her doing it a little, but not to anything like the extent that Rin does. Not least because I doubt she'd be able to find anything to make fun of, given how she thinks about him. However, she does do it occassionally even in HF, for example when he asks her about his magic training, and she teases him about how bad he was.

I can see her being a smiling devil like Rin, probably when Shirou does something wrong or what have you.

Yeah, definitely. Although not quite as bad, probably.

Originally Posted by Moczo

Well, I think that what happened there was that she still had a lot of excess power from Angra Mainyu, breaking the link just stopped any new power from coming in. And with Zouken's worms gone, her own Magic Circuits were back up to full function too, so between the two she had enough magic to keep Rider and Doll!Shirou supported.

I think.

No, it's explicitly stated that she's still a Holy Grail, and that prana is pooling in her body, so she has to "let it out" occasionally (conviniently, she has an eager recepticle who is more than happy to do the necessary act...).

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, it's explicitly stated that she's still a Holy Grail, and that prana is pooling in her body, so she has to "let it out" occasionally (conviniently, she has an eager recepticle who is more than happy to do the necessary act...).

Huh. Well, I guess you'd know. I think I can recall that passage now that I consider it, but I might have just taken it to mean that her own natural magic circuits were now producing mana again in addition to whatever she had leftover from her time as the Dark Lady of Destruction.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Huh. Well, I guess you'd know. I think I can recall that passage now that I consider it, but I might have just taken it to mean that her own natural magic circuits were now producing mana again in addition to whatever she had leftover from her time as the Dark Lady of Destruction.

Like someone said above, that wouldn't be enough. Her body can't store all that much prana (her capacity is 1000 units, the same as Rin, and she could produce that much in a week or two), so the 'left-over' prana would be largely meaningless, and her own personal production would barely be enough to even support Rider (since it's similar to Rin's), let alone Rider and Shirou together.

[Moczo]

But now I'm confused as to where the prana comes from. Does she just naturally draw it out of the air around her, is she tapped into a leyline or something? I mean, it's not like there's a lot of Servants dying in her general vicinity these days.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

But now I'm confused as to where the prana comes from. Does she just naturally draw it out of the air around her, is she tapped into a leyline or something? I mean, it's not like there's a lot of Servants dying in her general vicinity these days.

She's still connected to Akasha, because the point of the Grail is to open a path there, and whilst Sakura never managed to do so to the extent of actually being able to reach it, she can draw prana through that connection.

[Moczo]

Aaaaaaaaaaah. Okay, I get it now.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

She's still connected to Akasha, because the point of the Grail is to open a path there, and whilst Sakura never managed to do so to the extent of actually being able to reach it, she can draw prana through that connection.

Which then gives her plenty of manga to give to Rider & Shirou. Right!

But with Shirou, did anyone else not like how he survived in the true end of HF?

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Which then gives her plenty of manga to give to Rider & Shirou. Right!

But with Shirou, did anyone else not like how he survived in the true end of HF?

Hmmmm... only in the sense that Illya died to achieve it, which made me sad.

Honestly, after the blatant screaming madness Shirou went through at the end there, I really couldn't think of a believable way he could have lived. Making him a homunculus was as good an excuse as any. They couldn't have Rin be the only heroine who got a happy ending.

... well, I guess Saber got one too if you count the extra scene that came with Realta Nua. So that would change the statement to, 'they couldn't have Sakura be the only heroine who didn't get a happy ending'.

[willyvereb]

Although to be honest, Illya would've died only a year later. In some sense with the Normal End of HF she ended up worse since she lost Shirou and only lived her last year in mourning and may trying to console Sakura(and even Rin).

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Although to be honest, Illya would've died only a year later. In some sense with the Normal End of HF she ended up worse since she lost Shirou and only lived her last year in mourning and may trying to console Sakura(and even Rin).

Yeah, but I didn't know that when I read it.

And it made me even sadder when I found out.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Although to be honest, Illya would've died only a year later. In some sense with the Normal End of HF she ended up worse since she lost Shirou and only lived her last year in mourning and may trying to console Sakura(and even Rin).

Actually, it's worse than that.

She says that, with Shirou gone, there's no place for her in the Emiya house, and whilst Sakura is probably not the sort of person to kick her out, I doubt she's going to really be in any state to look after Ilya either, and in any case Ilya wants to be with Shirou, not with Sakura (who she never really got to know). Plus, she's not mentioned in the epilogue at all, which suggests she's not living with Sakura or Rin.

Most likely, in HF Normal Ilya goes back to the Einsbern castle and lives out the rest of her life alone. So, whilst her death in HF True is sad, it's actually better for her, because she gets to die on her own terms, knowing that she saved Shirou.

As for the ending, to make HF Normal the "true" ending after everything Sakura went through would just be nasty. She deserves to be happy, damnit. And it's not really comparable to Saber's ending, because that is a good ending for her, since she's given up her silly wish to redo the selection of the king and can now die peacefully, and Shirou is happy enough just having known her. HF Normal is way worse, because Shirou is dead and Sakura is depressed.

Yes, it's perhaps a little Deus-Ex Machinaish, but no more so than most of the rest of the things that happen towards the end of HF, or most of the things that happen towards the end of UBW or Fate. It makes perfect sense in the context of the story, and it's well-explained (although, note that Shirou does not become a Homonculus, he's still a normal human in pretty much every way, his body is just a little imperfect), so I don't see the problem with it. Archer's survival in UBW is far more dubious in my eyes.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Hmmmm... only in the sense that Illya died to achieve it, which made me sad.

Honestly, after the blatant screaming madness Shirou went through at the end there, I really couldn't think of a believable way he could have lived. Making him a homunculus was as good an excuse as any. They couldn't have Rin be the only heroine who got a happy ending.

That is true. And Sakura's good end wasn't really happy either.

... well, I guess Saber got one too if you count the extra scene that came with Realta Nua. So that would change the statement to, 'they couldn't have Sakura be the only heroine who didn't get a happy ending'.

You mean that scene at the very end with her returning to her time was added in Realta Nua? I'm glad they added it.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Actually, it's worse than that.

She says that, with Shirou gone, there's no place for her in the Emiya house, and whilst Sakura is probably not the sort of person to kick her out, I doubt she's going to really be in any state to look after Ilya either, and in any case Ilya wants to be with Shirou, not with Sakura (who she never really got to know). Plus, she's not mentioned in the epilogue at all, which suggests she's not living with Sakura or Rin.

Most likely, in HF Normal Ilya goes back to the Einsbern castle and lives out the rest of her life alone. So, whilst her death in HF True is sad, it's actually better for her, because she gets to die on her own terms, knowing that she saved Shirou.

As for the ending, to make HF Normal the "true" ending after everything Sakura went through would just be nasty. She deserves to be happy, damnit. And it's not really comparable to Saber's ending, because that is a good ending for her, since she's given up her silly wish to redo the selection of the king and can now die peacefully, and Shirou is happy enough just having known her. HF Normal is way worse, because Shirou is dead and Sakura is depressed.

Yeah, Sakura does deserve the be happy. The good end was not good at all for that reason.

Yes, it's perhaps a little Deus-Ex Machinaish, but no more so than most of the rest of the things that happen towards the end of HF, or most of the things that happen towards the end of UBW or Fate. It makes perfect sense in the context of the story, and it's well-explained (although, note that Shirou does not become a Homonculus, he's still a normal human in pretty much every way, his body is just a little imperfect), so I don't see the problem with it. Archer's survival in UBW is far more dubious in my eyes.

Oh yeah! That was a big w-t-f. Man, HF made me forget so much about the other routes.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That is true. And Sakura's good end wasn't really happy either.

Sakura never had a good end. She had a True end and a Normal end. It alsways confuses me when people talk about Sakura's "good" end, because I can never be sure if they mean the True end (which is the happier ending) or the Normal end (because some people seem to think that, because it's not the 'more canon' True end, it must therefore be a 'Good' end, even though it's clearly not good and is never described as a 'Good' end anywhere in Nasuverse canon).

You mean that scene at the very end with her returning to her time was added in Realta Nua? I'm glad they added it.

No, that was part of the original Fate.

Yeah, Sakura does deserve the be happy.

Yeah, definitely.

The good end was not good at all for that reason.

I am assuming you mean the Normal end (the one where Shirou dies), because in the True end she most definitely is happy.

Oh yeah! That was a big w-t-f. Man, HF made me forget so much about the other routes.

Yeah, exactly. They all contain some elements that seem a little dubious at first glance, but Nasu is pretty good at finding explanations for them. The same applies to the HF True ending.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Sakura never had a good end. She had a True end and a Normal end. It alsways confuses me when people talk about Sakura's "good" end, because I can never be sure if they mean the True end (which is the happier ending) or the Normal end (because some people seem to think that, because it's not the 'more canon' True end, it must therefore be a 'Good' end, even though it's clearly not good and is never described as a 'Good' end anywhere in Nasuverse canon).

I mean the normal end, I apologize.

No, that was part of the original Fate.

Then what was exactly added?

Yeah, exactly. They all contain some elements that seem a little dubious at first glance, but Nasu is pretty good at finding explanations for them. The same applies to the HF True ending.

Well, I certainly wasn't expecting Archer to show up and save Rin, so I will forgive it for that.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

You mean that scene at the very end with her returning to her time was added in Realta Nua? I'm glad they added it.

Just to be sure we're thinking of the same thing... Realta Nua added a scene called 'Last Episode' that takes place after the ending of 'Fate'. The gist of it (as far as I understand; it's written by Nasu, after all, so...) is that after Saber goes back to her own time, she is placed into eternal slumber as in the legend of King Arther. Shirou, in turn, goes on to, if not actually become Archer, then at least have a very similar life. In spite of this, they never forget about each other; she never stops waiting for him, and he never stops pursuing her, and in the end they're rewarded for their devotion by being reunited in Avalon.

It's incredibly touching. Saber actually cries tears of joy, and well, it was hard not to join her.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

And it's not really comparable to Saber's ending, because that is a good ending for her, since she's given up her silly wish to redo the selection of the king and can now die peacefully, and Shirou is happy enough just having known her.

I have a very hard time seeing it as a Good Ending (and indeed, it's not. Just like Sakura's, it's called a True End). I mean, yes, Saber got to die peacefully and Shirou moves on with his life... but I really do have a hard time seeing any ending where two people fall in love only to be separated mere days later as anything resembling 'happy'. HF Normal ending is worse, granted, but Fate's True Ending is not exactly a barrel of cheer and I'm glad that Realta Nua changed it.

[Tom Bombadil]

Someone mentioned Shirou filling magic for Rider. When did that happen? I played through both ending of HF, but I don't think I have seen an H-scene with Rider involved. By the way, in HF there was this strange dream sequence with Rin seducing Shirou in the classroom. Should I take it at face value, or is there something hiding behind this?

[mAc Chaos]

Rin's eyes are Rider's, if I recall.