AnimeSuki Forums

Touko · 2012-05-21, 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Which is why Rider said he was disappointed after dealing with them. It was not a true conquest.

And he did try to win them over through a nice chat over a glass of wine first, but they were foolish enough to not only reject the offer, but also spill the wine on his brand new shirt. They've got no one to blame but themselves.

Like the Hassans had a choice.

Kotomine popped a Command Spell on them to fight Rider to the death.

Vicious108 · 2012-05-21, 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Touko

Like the Hassans had a choice.

Kotomine popped a Command Spell on them to fight Rider to the death.

And how does fighting to the death equate to going out of their way to ridicule and insult him by spilling his wine and laughing in derision afterwards? Seems like a pretty dumb way to go about "achieving victory no matter the cost" to me, which is what the actual order consisted of.

Endscape · 2012-05-21, 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

And how does fighting to the death equate to going out of their way to ridicule and insult him by spilling his wine and laughing in derision afterwards? Seems like a pretty dumb way to go about "achieving victory no matter the cost" to me, which is what the actual order consisted of.

Maybe they thought if they made him angry, he'd get sloppy, and they could kill him easier.

Aesthetic Shampoo · 2012-05-21, 02:31

I thought the command spell kirei used was to forcefully gather the the assassins together so they could attack, not used for the attack itself. Though you guys talk like he used all 3 command spells at once, why would he do that? Just one is good enough.

**Klashikari** · 2012-05-21, 03:04

Command spells are, by essence, a huge chunk of Prana at the Magus disposal: using all of the 3 for the very same order would of course stack and multiply its effect. Remember that Command spells aren't solely used to bind the Servant: depending of the order, it can literally generate something that is close to a miracle done by true Magic. It is the very kind of super effect that allowed Saber to "nearly" teleport in Iri's hideout, despite in any normal circumstances, Saber would NOT be able to do that.
The effect of a CS is however dampened if it goes against the Servant's will (moreso if that Servant has a good/strong Magical resistance) and/or if the order is vague and not precisely for a single action.

Since Assassin would have to go through a suicidal charge, a single command spell wouldn't have the best effect (as it would go against the Servant's will in this case), so since Tokiomi and Kirei expect Assassin to die miserably (as Saber is in the party too), better increase the odds with all the command spells, instead of being unable to use the last 2 CS (Tokiomi believes Kirei's role as a master is fulfilled, so losing all CS is a result that he calculated as well. The situation was a win/win one for Tokiomi).

erneiz_hyde · 2012-05-21, 03:10

But a single command spell is able to make even that Lancer commit suicide (and I believe suicide is the very last thing in his mind then). Using three for the same order seems unnecessary on that account alone.

**Klashikari** · 2012-05-21, 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

But a single command spell is able to make even that Lancer commit suicide (and I believe suicide is the very last thing in his mind then). Using three for the same order seems unnecessary on that account alone.

This is because that single order is much more potent, due to being a single action taken by the servant. And even if it goes against Lancer's wish to have a fair fight, he is still more prone to obey due to his loyalty that is basically unwavering, even for the likes of Kayneth.

"Bring victory at any cost" is just vague and hardly anything specific, that basically hardly leads to a turnabout move.
If Kirei used something like "appear behind Waver" (assuming Assassin knows where Waver is) would require only 1 CS. But simply stating things like "win!" or "obey me!" will just lead to a half ass effect, moreso if the Servant isn't prone to that.

Reckoner · 2012-05-21, 03:23

Even Saber who has the most magic resistance is rendered immobile by one command seal. I doubt Kirie really needed more than one for assassin, mostly insurance and the fact that his purpose as a master was over.

Haak · 2012-05-21, 04:52

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was Kotomine, rather than Berserker, that kidnapped Irisviel for four reasons:

1) Who ever it was, it took three times to break down that door. A servant like Berserker would have easily done it with one, but this kind of monstrous strength fits Kotomine perfectly. Not only that but if it was Berserker then Maiya wouldn't have been left in one piece.

2) It's impossible to imagine a servant, especially Berserker, managing to waltz into the house without being detected. There must have surely been a boundary field there to detect enemy presence and if that's the case then there's no way a servant could sneak up on them and take them by surprise (and we know Assassin has ready bitten then the dust). However Kotomine is an expert in dealing with magus so sneaking though a boundary field shouldn't be beyond his abilities.

3) If it was Berserker that kidnapped Irisviel, then from what we saw it required a great deal of sanity (which he doesn't have), or the orders of a command spell (and Kariya has no reason order Berserker to go after the Saber team). Kotomine is the one that has the motive. Kotomine might be drawing Saber away (perhaps towards Archer), so she's separated from Kiritsugu which he can then attack.

4) If I recall correctly, then just before Kotomine killed Tokiomi he got a phone call confirming the locations of the other players. If Kotomine actually needed to find that out for himself then it's hard to imagine how Kariya could've found out. That kind of investigative ability seems beyond him.

Morisato · 2012-05-21, 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was Kotomine, rather than Berserker, that kidnapped Irisviel for four reasons:

1) Who ever it was, it took three times to break down that door. A servant like Berserker would have easily done it with one, but this kind of monstrous strength fits Kotomine perfectly. Not only that but if it was Berserker then Maiya wouldn't have been left in one piece.

2) It's impossible to imagine a servant, especially Berserker, managing to waltz into the house without being detected. There must have surely been a boundary field there to detect enemy presence and if that's the case then there's no way a servant could sneak up on them and take them by surprise (and we know Assassin has ready bitten then the dust). However Kotomine is an expert in dealing with magus so sneaking though a boundary field shouldn't be beyond his abilities.

3) If it was Berserker that kidnapped Irisviel, then from what we saw it required a great deal of sanity (which he doesn't have), or the orders of a command spell (and Kariya has no reason order Berserker to go after the Saber team). Kotomine is the one that has the motive. Kotomine might be drawing Saber away (perhaps towards Archer), so she's separated from Kiritsugu which he can then attack.

4) If I recall correctly, then just before Kotomine killed Tokiomi he got a phone call confirming the locations of the other players. If Kotomine actually needed to find that out for himself then it's hard to imagine how Kariya could've found out. That kind of investigative ability seems beyond him.

I agree that it should be Kirei given that a servant should've just one-shot the door. Plus that door banging was very reminiscent to Kirei's martial arts on the tree.

As for #3... I think Berserker actually regained some of his sanity. Cause I don't think that dream scene he had with Kariya had no purpose. I mean why would Kariya suddenly have a dream where Berserker gains speech and starts talking to him?

Haak · 2012-05-21, 05:58

I think the dream was implying that Berserker was starting to break control from Kariya more, but to this extent would be too much. The dream doesn't neccessarily mean that Bersekrer has regained all his sanity, or even most of it. Mad Enhancement might not apply in the dream world.

Eragon · 2012-05-21, 06:51

I know I posted this before but,
Why is Sakura's virginity involved in extracting her life force? - no, I'm not joking.

willyvereb · 2012-05-21, 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon

I know I posted this before but,
Why is Sakura's virginity involved in extracting her life force? - no, I'm not joking.

Apparently, sexual fluids are the best carriers of the mage's prana, at least in the Nasuverse.
In short they contain large amounts of magic energy.
In the original visual novels that explanation was used to hand-wave the reason for H-scenes (AkA "prana transfer").
But as you can see it can be also used for more cruel storytelling purposes...

Kanon · 2012-05-21, 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon

I know I posted this before but,
Why is Sakura's virginity involved in extracting her life force? - no, I'm not joking.

All the better to make you rage, my child.

Xagzan · 2012-05-21, 10:19

Wait, people are saying it wasn't Rider? So Gilgamesh or Berserker can change their forms?

Either way, poor Maiya

I actually was expecting her to die at Kirei's hands, so I was surprised when Rider's big ol' boot came showing through the door.

But damn, one after another, Kiritsugu just keeps losing all of his loved ones. And they all seem to be women, come to think of it.

White Manju Bun · 2012-05-21, 11:21

Dang being everyone in this series is painful. Felt bad for Maiya. And Zouken can just....ew that guy is nasty.

Cant wait to see what happens next week!

DragoZERO · 2012-05-21, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

It's only 25 episodes. At least according to the season 2 blu-ray specs.

That's saddening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was Kotomine, rather than Berserker, that kidnapped Irisviel for four reasons:

1) Who ever it was, it took three times to break down that door. A servant like Berserker would have easily done it with one, but this kind of monstrous strength fits Kotomine perfectly. Not only that but if it was Berserker then Maiya wouldn't have been left in one piece.

I thought Rider was fliying on his NP, but he was in mid-air. It was probably Kirei. I thought it was him because of how long it took to break down the door.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

All the better to make you rage, my child.

Have I mentioned recently that I raged for weeks because of Heaven's Feel? The first few days after I learned the truth I was devastated.

GDB · 2012-05-21, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That's saddening.

Well, as said before, season 1 was technically the length of 14 episodes since episode 1 was a double episode. So it splits 14/12 instead of 13/13 in terms of length.

Quote:

Have I mentioned recently that I raged for weeks because of Heaven's Feel? The first few days after I learned the truth I was devastated.

Let the hate consume you!

Archon_Wing · 2012-05-22, 04:34

Berserker's VA.... I recognized it right away since I've been playing as Zero from Mega Man X so much lately.

Yea, he often does really manly characters such as Akio from Clannad. And of course, Zoken and his douchebaggery is also voiced by a very appropriate VA (he did two other old douchebags in Akagi/Kaiji)

Anyhow, another strong set up episode. Kiritsugu should be desensitized by now but hey, it never gets easier. You just learn to hide it more so you can deal with what's at hand. But would Rider really do that? I guess we'll just have to find out. The music once again fits the atmosphere of the impending battle and these episodes have been a really nice buildup.

8/10

jeroz · 2012-05-22, 13:54

seriously, I'm spotting more and more similarities between Kiritsugu and Homura....

View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10	19	24.36%
9 out of 10 : Excellent	22	28.21%
8 out of 10 : Very Good	28	35.90%
7 out of 10 : Good	6	7.69%
6 out of 10 : Average	2	2.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	0	0%
4 out of 10 : Poor	0	0%
3 out of 10 : Bad	1	1.28%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad	0	0%
1 out of 10 : Painful	0	0%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

2012-05-21, 03:04	Link #105
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	Command spells are, by essence, a huge chunk of Prana at the Magus disposal: using all of the 3 for the very same order would of course stack and multiply its effect. Remember that Command spells aren't solely used to bind the Servant: depending of the order, it can literally generate something that is close to a miracle done by true Magic. It is the very kind of super effect that allowed Saber to "nearly" teleport in Iri's hideout, despite in any normal circumstances, Saber would NOT be able to do that. The effect of a CS is however dampened if it goes against the Servant's will (moreso if that Servant has a good/strong Magical resistance) and/or if the order is vague and not precisely for a single action. Since Assassin would have to go through a suicidal charge, a single command spell wouldn't have the best effect (as it would go against the Servant's will in this case), so since Tokiomi and Kirei expect Assassin to die miserably (as Saber is in the party too), better increase the odds with all the command spells, instead of being unable to use the last 2 CS (Tokiomi believes Kirei's role as a master is fulfilled, so losing all CS is a result that he calculated as well. The situation was a win/win one for Tokiomi). __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2012-05-21, 03:10	Link #106
erneiz_hyde 18782+18782=37564 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: InterWebs	But a single command spell is able to make even that Lancer commit suicide (and I believe suicide is the very last thing in his mind then). Using three for the same order seems unnecessary on that account alone. __________________

2012-05-21, 04:52	Link #109
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was Kotomine, rather than Berserker, that kidnapped Irisviel for four reasons: 1) Who ever it was, it took three times to break down that door. A servant like Berserker would have easily done it with one, but this kind of monstrous strength fits Kotomine perfectly. Not only that but if it was Berserker then Maiya wouldn't have been left in one piece. 2) It's impossible to imagine a servant, especially Berserker, managing to waltz into the house without being detected. There must have surely been a boundary field there to detect enemy presence and if that's the case then there's no way a servant could sneak up on them and take them by surprise (and we know Assassin has ready bitten then the dust). However Kotomine is an expert in dealing with magus so sneaking though a boundary field shouldn't be beyond his abilities. 3) If it was Berserker that kidnapped Irisviel, then from what we saw it required a great deal of sanity (which he doesn't have), or the orders of a command spell (and Kariya has no reason order Berserker to go after the Saber team). Kotomine is the one that has the motive. Kotomine might be drawing Saber away (perhaps towards Archer), so she's separated from Kiritsugu which he can then attack. 4) If I recall correctly, then just before Kotomine killed Tokiomi he got a phone call confirming the locations of the other players. If Kotomine actually needed to find that out for himself then it's hard to imagine how Kariya could've found out. That kind of investigative ability seems beyond him. __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2012-05-21, 05:58	Link #111
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	I think the dream was implying that Berserker was starting to break control from Kariya more, but to this extent would be too much. The dream doesn't neccessarily mean that Bersekrer has regained all his sanity, or even most of it. Mad Enhancement might not apply in the dream world. __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2012-05-21, 02:31	Link #104
Aesthetic Shampoo Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Age: 30	I thought the command spell kirei used was to forcefully gather the the assassins together so they could attack, not used for the attack itself. Though you guys talk like he used all 3 command spells at once, why would he do that? Just one is good enough.

2012-05-21, 06:51	Link #112
Eragon Still Alive Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Somewhere far far away Age: 30	I know I posted this before but, Why is Sakura's virginity involved in extracting her life force? - no, I'm not joking. __________________ Signature courtesy of rikikai

2012-05-21, 10:19	Link #115
Xagzan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009	Wait, people are saying it wasn't Rider? So Gilgamesh or Berserker can change their forms? Either way, poor Maiya I actually was expecting her to die at Kirei's hands, so I was surprised when Rider's big ol' boot came showing through the door. But damn, one after another, Kiritsugu just keeps losing all of his loved ones. And they all seem to be women, come to think of it.

2012-05-22, 13:54	Link #120
jeroz Art Block Specialist Join Date: Jun 2007	seriously, I'm spotting more and more similarities between Kiritsugu and Homura.... __________________ [TAC]