[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by arson88

Eerr, did Ryukishi07 reveal Jessica's personality when she was younger?

Yes, right at the very beginning in EP1. Battler said she was a tomboy (as she's now), and that back then, he and Jessica used to wrestle.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Now I'm starting to remember how many scenes there were in Episode 1 where Kumasawa quietly lamented something from the shadows, and the bit where Nanjo wondered if Kinzo meant for the epitaph to bring his family back together. How to get around Kumasawa and Nanjo are not murderers, though?

They could be aware of it and not stopping it, if the main killer isn't them (if you don't consider that murder unto itself). Alternately, they aren't the ones doing it, but they sympathize with the bad situation the family is in. Or they simply weren't doing it in ep1.

I want to stress: A deliberate killing is murder. Whether they think it's helping people or not. If soandso is not a murderer in an episode, they can't be the killer no matter their justification unless the justification was self-defense or some other fully justified thing.

In other words, I personally do not believe anyone can kill anyone else and get around red text like that except in the case of accidental killings or self-defense. But as I've said many times, I have no clue what the author intends us to believe "murder" to mean.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is making so much sense. Maybe Nanjo and Kumasawa are working together? They're about the only people on that island who appear to have any sense whatsoever.

There's actually a lot of stuff that supports this, looking back...

I think you might have solved Umineko. >_>

Sorry to burst your bubble Kaisos, but there's a line of red text from Epsiode 4 about Episode 1 which kills this theory. Genji, Kumasawa and Najo are not murderers. In order for this theory to work, you'd have to construct it so that Kumasawa and Nanjo tricked everyone else into killing each other.
Heh heh... That sounds kinda fun actually.

Edit: Ninja'd...

[Raiza Sunozaki]

There is another problem with the Kumasawa and Nanjo theory.All unrecognizable corpses have their ... Guaranteed. Sorry, can't remember that one word.
I'm pretty sure it means that if there's no way to identify the corpse through facial recognition, it is that person then.
Therefore, the murder of Natsuhi is impossible for Kumasawa and Nanjo, as they were in the parlour (dead or apparently dead) when she was shot.

[LyricalAura]

Does it count as self-defense if the killer is tricked into thinking the victim is the culprit?

There was a bit in Episode 2 that struck me as really weird at the time. During the Fake Kanon scene, Fake Kanon tried to convince the people in the kitchen that Rosa had attacked him. Obviously that was a fantasy scene, but the detail about Rosa being accused never came out in the story the servants told later, and Rosa has an alibi from Battler during that time period. So what was the purpose of showing it?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Does it count as self-defense if the killer is tricked into thinking the victim is the culprit?

I would say no, unless the person honestly thought the other person was about to kill them. Not like "he'll kill me when we're alone," but "oh my God, he has a gun pointed at me!" In that case I'd call it self-defense or an accident. But we may be overthinking ryukishi's intentions.

Also, this should probably move to the Spoilers & Speculations thread, as it is having increasingly less to do with ep6 and increasingly more to do with theories.

[goldenlove27]

Hey guys. I'm kind of new here but after I was reading theses and thinking about my own but I want to hear some of your opinions about this:

Spoiler for My thoughs on the culprit:

Wouldn't the culprit = someone who solved the Epitaph?
I mean to kill all the way to the 10th twilight and to make the survivors go "missing", they most likely hid the bodies where the gold was located (as no one knows the location of the gold excepted "Beatrice" or those who solved the riddle).
I also hate the bomb killed eveyone killed them solution...

Also sorry for getting in between an existing discussion...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by goldenlove27

Hey guys. I'm kind of new here but after I was reading theses and thinking about my own but I want to hear some of your opinions about this:

Spoiler for My thoughs on the culprit:

Wouldn't the culprit = someone who solved the Epitaph?
I mean to kill all the way to the 10th twilight and to make the survivors go "missing", they most likely hid the bodies where the gold was located (as no one knows the location of the gold excepted "Beatrice" or those who solved the riddle).
I also hate the bomb killed eveyone killed them solution...

Also sorry for getting in between an existing discussion...

Going by that assumption that means Eva and Battler are the culprits for EP 3 and 5. Eva, however, is a MASSIVE red herring and Battler being the culprit sounds like bad writing to me.

As for the bomb - it kills only the people who last to the 10th twilight. It's actually interesting when you realize that the game always ends with someone in the mansion.

EP 1 - All four cousins were in the mansion
EP 2 - Battler was in the mansion, while Rosa and Maria were seen running out.
EP 3 - Jessica was left in the mansion, but Eva went to the Kuwadorian. Remember that everyone was dead but Eva and Jessica at the moment Battler died. Eva shouldn't have known Jessica was there, so who killed Jessica if everyone else was dead?
EP 4 - The final riddle means that Battler was killed by something inhuman.
EP 5 - If everyone stood in the mansion watching Natsuhi then they would be killed by the bomb.

[Antera Caramichael]

Originally Posted by Marion

EP 5 - If everyone stood in the mansion watching Natsuhi then they would be killed by the bomb.

Didn't seven of them actually survived the events?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

Didn't seven of them actually survived the events?

The game says that they were alive when the game was suspended. When Bern requested for the trial to begin Hideyoshi had just died, so we don't see the game all the way through because of that.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Marion

The game says that they were alive when the game was suspended. When Bern requested for the trial to begin Hideyoshi had just died, so we don't see the game all the way through because of that.

I believe Ryukishi said that even with the game suspension, players who know the truth can figure out what happens after Hideyoshi's death. Since guessing the order of the following twilights is practically guesswork, I think he was referencing to the existence of the end-all event (the explosion suggestion that is often mentioned in this topic).

[Jan-Poo]

Btw I'm glad it is finally settled (is it? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if someone still disagreed) that some kind of disasters happens at the end of October 5 that kills all survivors, and that it isn't true that in EP5 almost everyone survives and go back home (same with EP6).

I remember how many times since EP4 I had to argue with people about what I considered evidences that it is common knowledge in 1998 that the Mansion (and probably the guesthouse as well) was gone for good in that "unfortunate accident".

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Btw I'm glad it is finally settled (is it? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if someone still disagreed) that some kind of disasters happens at the end of October 5 that kills all survivors, and that it isn't true that in EP5 almost everyone survives and go back home (same with EP6).

Well for EP6, do you remember the last sentence in ??? tea party?

It was in red, after the credit.

[Jan-Poo]

After the credit of the ??? tea party? I can't find it, unless you are talking about the full screen image that was recycled from EP2

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

After the credit of the ??? tea party? I can't find it, unless you are talking about the full screen image that was recycled from EP2

Why was it recycled? Have you seen it in EP3, EP5? If it was just a screenshot with no particular meaning, why a gunshot sound was accompanied?

[Jan-Poo]

It's the screen that says

"when the seagulls cry no one is left alive" right?

Well it's a red screen with white text if that's the one. I don't think it counts as red text, anyway the file name is "Ep2_text"

[Arachanox]

What is the best translation of the

Spoiler for ep6:

last red truths used at the end of the game (before the Tea Party)?

edit: I am referring to the lines of Erika and Battler/Beatrice over the #of people on the island.

[Kurizu204]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

To understand my answer to another user you need to understand the user's statement first.
Renall statement was that someone for some reasons is not a person.

Now there are only two possibilities about the red you quoted
1) it definitely demonstrate that Kanon is a person (and therefore the not-person must be someone else)
2) it doesn't demonstrate that Kanon is a person (and therefore doesn't deny the Shkannon theory).

In the first case

Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead

By the same logic all of these people are persons. And therefore Renall's thesis about someone being not a person is limited to Eva Battler and Jessica.

that could make sense in a way.
with the thinking that battler never was on the island so 16 ppl works out
what if battler never went to the conference and in some sick game the culprit is trying to make battler figure out the ep 1 and 2 letters before time runs out on the second day and everyone dies. idk sounded better in my head

[LyricalAura]

Maybe somebody already mentioned this, but I just finished reading Jessica's trial, and something's bugging me.

Kyrie said that she was released from her hell of regret after 18 years, because she finally gained the absolute will to kill Asumu. But that doesn't make sense. Asumu died six years ago, so shouldn't she only have been waiting for 12 years?

EDIT:
Of possible interest to nobody: according to the script, the sound of a stake attacking is apparently "Kakikokizugyuun!"

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Maybe somebody already mentioned this, but I just finished reading Jessica's trial, and something's bugging me.

Kyrie said that she was released from her hell of regret after 18 years, because she finally gained the absolute will to kill Asumu. But that doesn't make sense. Asumu died six years ago, so shouldn't she only have been waiting for 12 years?

EDIT:
Of possible interest to nobody: according to the script, the sound of a stake attacking is apparently "Kakikokizugyuun!"

I found that strange too. From what Kyrie said and what Ange pitched in on the entire thing, it seems that Asumu was just a random one night stand who happened to get pregnant, so its not like Asumu and Rudolf were in a relationship and then Asumu got pregnant. If they had a relationship it was a pretty minimal one (can't remember for sure, but I think Kyrie said that Rudolf didn't even remember Asumu's name for a while )

Maybe she means that six years after Asumu's death, Kyrie decided for certain that if Asumu was still alive then she would have killed her (since she does mention to Jessica that Asumu dying was a miracle)