[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

...Well.

You, sir, have insulted the entirety of EP3.

If the truth is that Eva killed everyone just because she went insane then I have no problem insulting such a story.

[Teapot]

I'll have to agree with Jan-Poo. If you spent so much time talking about HOW IT CAN'T BE SEEN WITHOUT LOVE AND HOW THE HEART OF THE CULPRIT IS SO IMPORTANT, you have to be coherent and stick it with or disappoint the few thousands of people that read your work and risk your reputation. I sometimes wonder why he doesn't just publish normal books....

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Haha, wow, you did not get that Red scene at all, if you think it was insinuating that Kinzo wanted to steal the gold.

The thing about the Theatergoing Authority that Will uses is that it doesn't allow the person being interviewed to lie. They can give subjective experiences they genuinely believe, like Maria's magical beliefs, but they can't deliberately lie.

Of course they can lie, especially if it's a lie of omission. There's nothing that says they can't. All of the things in those red flashes we things that were omitted from their stories, not lied about.

[AuraTwilight]

So Bern is heavily implying something. But you believe that Bern is lying about the entire Tea Party. Do you trust Bern, or not?

Context is the key, here. She wants Will to expose the heart of things here. Why would she give him a tool that doesn't allow him to do that?

By the way, Clair wasn't under the effects of the Theatregoing Authority, she was just doing her own thing.

It's also possible Yasu is Shannon's real "actual name," not her Honored Name, but she hated it. Once the older servants quit, she went by Sayo. The Ushiromiya's would only call her Shannon either way, and Genji and Kumasawa both call her Shannon, so no one would notice a change in her "actual name" from Yasu to Sayo. Maybe there's some subtlety in Japanese characters here that I can't see that makes this impossible.

Yasu is derived from her surname, Yasuda. We never learn her first name, and we know Sayo's first name but not her surname.

Also, anyone who thinks Eva killed everyone in Episode 3 missed the point; a good portion of the murders were literally impossible for her to do, and the only murder she's confirmed to commit is Battler's, wherein she thought he was the culprit via Wolf and Sheep Puzzle.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If the truth is that Eva killed everyone just because she went insane then I have no problem insulting such a story.

You're just like BERN. *KickKickStompStomp*

1) Personally, if I had a switch that would blow up everything and I was inviting people into the room with that switch, I'd put some sort of warning near the switch. Also, *.
2) Why would Beatrice tell them about the bomb? Possibly Genji tells them about it just in case someone accidentally flipped it, out of caution.
3) The cash card might have existed in Lion's world. There are lots of possible reasons for it existing. If it didn't, maybe they just wanted to take 500 pounds or so of gold ingots. That wouldn't be too hard to move onto a boat. If they carried 20 pounds each up the stairs, so 25 trips up the stairs, then pushed it the rest in 100-150 pound loads via wheelbarrow to make it go faster to the boat...they could easily do that in a few hours, then jet before the bomb went off. They'd have to wait until the typhoon ended, of course. Or they could have hid the gold in Kuwadorian, after pushing two wheelbarrows (one for each of them) down into the VIP room to make it go faster.
4) We don't know anything about the wires, or whether they're visible, or lead anywhere. It could be just that convenient. Also, *.

1. Again, if was off to begin with, Kinzo wouldn't have bothered. Plus the whole humoring the family.

2. Um...Beato DID. As in, it said she did. She was there and got shot in the face. And, again, Kinzo didn't think they would solve it.

3. The only reason why it exists in Beato's world is because Beato did it herself. There's no reason for it to have been converted in Lion's world is because no one but Kinzo and his servants knew about the gold.

...By the way, they weren't carrying it by boat. They where carrying it to the otherside of the island via a conveniently placed tunnel (approx. 2 km.). When the typhoon ends, though, it's already too late, because either the bomb would have gone off, or they had an hour before the police came.

4. Would you leave a couple of conspiring adults with 10 tons of gold? Also, there was no markings for on or off on the switch. How would they know when it was to go off? Was it armed, and just to go off at a different time than 24:00? They only went on what Beato said, only because she was right about the switch, and brutally honest. Without Beato, they would've gone back, and it wouldn't have ended with a bang...but probably EP 4 style, Lion +.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Context is the key, here. She wants Will to expose the heart of things here. Why would she give him a tool that doesn't allow him to do that?

If she wants to expose the heart of things here, then why would she lie in the Tea Party and show anything but what really, truly happened?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

By the way, Clair wasn't under the effects of the Theatregoing Authority, she was just doing her own thing.

Yasu is derived from her surname, Yasuda. We never learn her first name, and we know Sayo's first name but not her surname.

I interpreted Clair as being under the effects of the Theatergoing Authority, do to the heavy theater motif during those many chapters (being on a stage and all).

So Shannon/Yasu's real name could be "Yasuda Sayo."

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

2. Um...Beato DID. As in, it said she did. She was there and got shot in the face. And, again, Kinzo didn't think they would solve it.

My point is, we don't why Beato would tell them about the bomb. But she did. Similarly, we don't know why Genji would tell about the bomb. But just as with Beato, that doesn't preclude the possibility that he would.

Lacking knowledge of something does not preclude the existence of something. In this case, a motive for Genji telling them about the bomb.

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

3. The only reason why it exists in Beato's world is because Beato did it herself. There's no reason for it to have been converted in Lion's world is because no one but Kinzo and his servants knew about the gold.

Once again, "I can't think of a reason for X" does not mean that "There is no reason for X." Here are reasons for the cash card existing that purely depend on Lion existing, which I just came up with in 60-second time frame:

1. Kinzo converted some gold into a cash card to give to Lion, once he became the head, so Lion could start investing and business ventures right away.
2. Kinzo converted some gold into a cash card to have money on hand to bribe anyone who threatened to go public about Lion being Kinzo's own daughter's incestous child (since only in this case would he know such a child existed).
3. Kinzo converted some gold into a cash card to give to Lion as part of begging for forgiveness for his sin.

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

...By the way, they weren't carrying it by boat. They where carrying it to the otherside of the island via a conveniently placed tunnel (approx. 2 km.). When the typhoon ends, though, it's already too late, because either the bomb would have gone off, or they had an hour before the police came.

If they didn't know about the bomb and it was never set, they would've probably left by boat. Also, they don't have to worry about the police coming in an hour because they would have killed anyone before they could've called the police, so their would be no reason for the police to come.

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

4. Would you leave a couple of conspiring adults with 10 tons of gold?

I wouldn't. Kinzo would.

[Teapot]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

there was no markings for on or off on the switch. How would they know when it was to go off?

Horizontal switches almost always have the off side to the left.

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by Teapot

Horizontal switches almost always have the off side to the left.

This is Kinzo's switch! He's just as likely to do the opposite for the lols.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

If she wants to expose the heart of things here, then why would she lie in the Tea Party and show anything but what really, truly happened?

...Revenge. That's...Pretty much why. Bern doesn't like losing.

I interpreted Clair as being under the effects of the Theatergoing Authority, do to the heavy theater motif during those many chapters (being on a stage and all).

So Shannon/Yasu's real name could be "Yasuda Sayo."

I imagine the only difference between Spectators authority and Theatergoing authority is that Spectators only hear what they want to hear, where as Theatergoers can even read the enemies thoughts.

As for Yasuda Sayo....

...I wont argue.

My point is, we don't why Beato would tell them about the bomb. But she did. Similarly, we don't know why Genji would tell about the bomb. But just as with Beato, that doesn't preclude the possibility that he would.

Lacking knowledge of something does not preclude the existence of something. In this case, a motive for Genji telling them about the bomb.

We...do. Beato gave up. They solved the Epitaph, and honorably admitted defeat. Told them about her plot, about the bomb... She didn't care anymore.

Once again, "I can't think of a reason for X" does not mean that "There is no reason for X." Here are reasons for the cash card existing that purely depend on Lion existing, which I just came up with in 60-second time frame:

1. Kinzo converted some gold into a cash card to give to Lion, once he became the head, so Lion could start investing and business ventures right away.
2. Kinzo converted some gold into a cash card to have money on hand to bribe anyone who threatened to go public about Lion being Kinzo's own daughter's incestous child (since only in this case would he know such a child existed).
3. Kinzo converted some gold into a cash card to give to Lion as part of begging for forgiveness for his sin.

You're right. Yet there is no reason for X, not because I can't think of one, but because the person that would have done it does not exist to do it. Its like George proposing to Shannon without George. Lion would have already been left with money that was actually legal. No one knew about Lion true parentage except Nanjo, Genji, and possibly Kumasawa. And, lastly, Kinzo had no regrets because he had a chance to repent by giving Lion a bright future. No matter how you slice it, Yasu's the only who does this, and since she's not there, the cash card doesn't exist.

If they didn't know about the bomb and it was never set, they would've probably left by boat. Also, they don't have to worry about the police coming in an hour because they would have killed anyone before they could've called the police, so their would be no reason for the police to come.

...I can't come up with a plausible reason because in the past, they had time to call the police. Not everyone...'died at once'. But there's still Eva.

I wouldn't. Kinzo would.

The very beginning of EP1 begs to differ.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

...Revenge. That's...Pretty much why. Bern doesn't like losing.

Bern believes she can "beat" Beatrice/Clair by going against her wishes and opening up the catbox to reveal the true reality of Rokkenjima. So that's what she did, right?

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

We...do. Beato gave up. They solved the Epitaph, and honorably admitted defeat. Told them about her plot, about the bomb... She didn't care anymore.

If she had "given up and didn't care anymore", she would have no motivation to do anything. Not caring isn't a motivation, it's a lack of motivation. She had a motivation to actively go out of her way and tell them about the bomb.

Regardless of Beatrice, my point stands that there are possible reasons for Genji or someone else telling them about the bomb. Maybe Genji was worried about it and wanted to get it removed before Kinzo really blew everyone up (just like he was worried Kinzo would rape Yasu) and told them about the bomb for that reason.

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

You're right. Yet there is no reason for X, not because I can't think of one, but because the person that would have done it does not exist to do it. Its like George proposing to Shannon without George.

What you're saying is along the lines of "George can't propose to Shannon without George...therefore no one will propose to Shannon ever."

Other people besides Beatrice could have converted some of the gold into cash. And you say, "Lion would have already been left with money that was actually legal"... maybe all that money was stored down in the chapel VIP room. It's not like Kinzo would give him a huge amount of money before he actually succeeded as the head. Btw, the cash card is perfectly legal money.

"No one knew about Lion true parentage except Nanjo, Genji, and possibly Kumasawa." ...we don't know this with absolute certainty.

Personally, I believe saying "There's no possibility that X can happen in any possible fragment" is pure arrogance. The only person with the ability to say that is Bernkastel, not some random Internet forum poster.

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

...I can't come up with a plausible reason because in the past, they had time to call the police. Not everyone...'died at once'. But there's still Eva.

They didn't know about Eva, though. They completely thought she was dead, so they couldn't have planned for her.

Btw, Rudolf and Kyrie might have cut all the phone lines before beginning their murder spree. Would've made sense. Either way, they did so in a way that wouldn't have given anyone a chance to get suspicious or call the police. That's why they called the kids out far away to murder them secretly.

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

The very beginning of EP1 begs to differ.

That Kinzo was just a delusion, since, as we know from EP5, Kinzo had been dead at the start of all previous games. An imaginary delusion of Kinzo can't be used as an accurate predictor of the real Kinzo's behavior.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

You're just like BERN. *KickKickStompStomp*

What? That's the total opposite. If I were like Bern I would love a story where people go crazy and kill everyone without any reason.

I'm more like Will on this matter. A mystery where you don't even need to use your brain to explain the whydunnit it's heartless it's rubbish.


Let's face it "madness" is the "magic" of the whydunnit, there's no action you can't explain with it.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Let's face it "madness" is the "magic" of the whydunnit, there's no action you can't explain with it.

To quote a German Scholar:

"There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness."
~Friedrich Nietzsche

[Jan-Poo]

That should make you reflect about the fact you can't simply be satisfied with "madness" as an explanation.

What is the reason behind that madness? "Madness" doesn't explain a damn thing. The reason behind it does.

If you don't know that reason you haven't reached the answer. Madness is not an answer.

[AuraTwilight]

If she wants to expose the heart of things here, then why would she lie in the Tea Party and show anything but what really, truly happened?

The only person she wants to share the truth with is Featherine. Everyone else can get trolled.

I interpreted Clair as being under the effects of the Theatergoing Authority, do to the heavy theater motif during those many chapters (being on a stage and all).

But, see, it's never actually used on her. I see it as Clair "putting on a show." It has shit that didn't happen to spice it up, but it mostly acts as her big confession. Her theatric final moments.

Bern believes she can "beat" Beatrice/Clair by going against her wishes and opening up the catbox to reveal the true reality of Rokkenjima. So that's what she did, right?

Clair WANTS people to know the truth. Hypothetically speaking, what would Bern do if the truth of Rokkenjima was sunshine and roses plus an accidental explosion no one was at fault for? She'd probably lie and do this same scenario anyway.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That should make you reflect about the fact you can't simply be satisfied with "madness" as an explanation.

What is the reason behind that madness? "Madness" doesn't explain a damn thing. The reason behind it does.

If you don't know that reason you haven't reached the answer. Madness is not an answer.

Ep 7, in a nutshell.

What you're saying is along the lines of "George can't propose to Shannon without George...therefore no one will propose to Shannon ever."

What you're saying is that Shannon could have gotten magically engaged to a unicorn or Kanon or Battler. Or had an affair with the man of 19 years ago. Or both.

There are no hintings of that, and I refuse to acknowledge that kind of bull crap. It is until it isn't.

Other people besides Beatrice could have converted some of the gold into cash. And you say, "Lion would have already been left with money that was actually legal"... maybe all that money was stored down in the chapel VIP room. It's not like Kinzo would give him a huge amount of money before he actually succeeded as the head. Btw, the cash card is perfectly legal money.

How do you explain one billion yen? In any case, there's still the inheritance law to go through.

"No one knew about Lion true parentage except Nanjo, Genji, and possibly Kumasawa." ...we don't know this with absolute certainty.

...There are no hintings otherwise, and, hey, I forgot Natsuhi. We do know this for absolute certainty because there are no records of Beato-1 or 2 existing, and Lion can be explained by being an orphan from the orphanage. Add to the fact that no one cares about Kinzo's reputation, or Lion's, because money talks. No hush money required.

Personally, I believe saying "There's no possibility that X can happen in any possible fragment" is pure arrogance. The only person with the ability to say that is Bernkastel, not some random Internet forum poster.

There is no arrogance in saying what's impossible, only ignorance. And I pocess the right to accept and deny what I wish. I find it extremely arrogant that you say that kind of stuff can happen with any grounds. Which is Hypocrisy on my part.

They didn't know about Eva, though. They completely thought she was dead, so they couldn't have planned for her.

...Exactly my point?

Btw, Rudolf and Kyrie might have cut all the phone lines before beginning their murder spree. Would've made sense. Either way, they did so in a way that wouldn't have given anyone a chance to get suspicious or call the police. That's why they called the kids out far away to murder them secretly.

Wait, WHAT? They made the plan up on the spot. They still needed the phone lines to call the cousins out! And if they thought everyone was dead, why would they waste their time cutting lines when dead people can't call?

That Kinzo was just a delusion, since, as we know from EP5, Kinzo had been dead at the start of all previous games. An imaginary delusion of Kinzo can't be used as an accurate predictor of the real Kinzo's behavior.

Not true. It happened before Yasu solved the Epitaph, since Kinzo was shown to have passed away when she showed herself.

[mastakilla88]

Why 1986 is so important? Why Beatrice says that if battler came back one year before or one year later it wouldn't happen all this?

[Kirroha]

I think if it's one year earlier or later, firstly there won't be a typhoon, secondly if it's one year earlier Yasu won't have found the gold yet or given up on him, and if one year later, she'd have already married George and left the island.

[rogerpepitone]

In 1985, Shannon hadn't accepted George. If Battler returned then, she could have rejected George without pain.

By 1987, Shannon probably would have fully accepted George and moved on from Battler. If Battler returned then, she could have rejected Battler without pain.

In 1986, she's torn between Battler and George.

[Rattan]

Originally Posted by mastakilla88

Why 1986 is so important? Why Beatrice says that if battler came back one year before or one year later it wouldn't happen all this?

For me, because:
+ Shannon had technically won the love trial with George's Proposal
+ Kanon decides to cut ties with Jessica as the loser
+ The family NEEDED A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW

Battler appearing would've rendered Shannon's victory null and back to square one. What's more, with the appearance of Battler, there are now THREE people in the love trial compared to just two of them. If you were Yasu, it's like your heart being gouged in three different directions. Yasu would also be emotionally tired from all this.
Had Battler appeared before where George still hadn't proposed to Shannon or later where Shannon had emotionally decided to leave, the epitaph murders would not have likely occured.

[AuraTwilight]

Wait, WHAT? They made the plan up on the spot. They still needed the phone lines to call the cousins out! And if they thought everyone was dead, why would they waste their time cutting lines when dead people can't call?

Hell, Kyrie even says they need to act quick so the kids don't call for help.