2012-02-03, 08:02 | Link #27601 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Beatrice the witch doesn't exist in EP5s world like she did in the previous ones. So that pretty much discards any probability of it being a game being played by Yasu for Battler. If Yasu is still the one thats doing it, then its not as Beatrice but rather as TMF19YA. So you can skirt around any red involving Beatrice not murdering for x reasons and stopping if anyone found the truth.
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2012-02-03, 08:58 | Link #27602 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Quote:
After all she said to BATTLER: "It seems we both opened a gameboard at the same time". So there are 2 gameboards with 1 GM each, but they can not use their GM priviligues on the board of the other GM. |
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2012-02-03, 09:27 | Link #27603 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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"However, my miko is now a Game Master in your game. ......It seems the two of you opened the game board at the same time. It is rare to have two Masters for a single game, but this miracle pleases me. ......After all, I can rest assured that this will make for a proper final game for you both." |
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2012-02-03, 09:49 | Link #27604 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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What is connected between the boards is only the Meta. The gameboard-worlds themselves are seperate. BATTLER made a game for Ange, where she comes to rokkenjima with everyone from her family present and with everyone being cheerful. Bernkastels game is a pure Mystery and it is the one she "opened at the same time as BATTLER". After all the background from EP7-???, where she opens it, and the background from EP8, where they fight about the mystery game, are the same. Can you prove, that the "no happy ending" red truth was not just used for the mystery game, but for the whole gameboard-meta as well? If you cannot, then both are truths that cannot be denied and exist at the same time in the catbox. Well... most of the arguments, like the identity of Ikuko, also end up like this. As long as there is no "WORD OF GOD". |
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2012-02-03, 10:03 | Link #27605 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Furthermore, my theory is supported by the fact that, when the goats were attacking BATTLER's game board of EP8, Lion and Lambda and everyone made a big deal of not being able to overturn the whole "no happy endings" thing, which according to you, would not apply to them. |
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2012-02-03, 10:56 | Link #27606 |
Dribble.....SHOOTOH!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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This is basically what I thought. Episode 5 is the game without love, so the motive needs to be something else, with revenge against Natsuhi being the next most likely reason. It's a very strange game. I'd love to see more about what was going on behind the scenes, because we can really only guess with what we have.
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2012-02-03, 11:05 | Link #27607 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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If the point was revenge against Natsuhi, what's up with killing Hideyoshi? I realize that could also be fake (especially since it was for Natsuhi's benefit), but there's at least an implication that the cousins and Hideyoshi might have actually died at some point. Aside from the implied immediate murder of Krauss after the call, which at least has some connection to Natsuhi enough to harm her.
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2012-02-03, 11:18 | Link #27608 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Eva would at least try to kill her, and if someone stopped her from doing so, it wouldn't change the fact that Eva would do all she could to make Natsuhi's life miserable. Not that she doesn't already do a good job of that. And Eva probably wouldn't be the only one who thinks Natsuhi is the culprit. Natsuhi's honor and reputation (or what's left of it) will be torn to shreds. The question is how this murder was even pulled off. If it's like what I'm saying, then it has to be a genuine death and not acting, or it probably won't fool Eva. |
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2012-02-03, 11:46 | Link #27609 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Quote:
Though I guess Bern's red can also be interpreted. What's a happy ending? One in which everyone comes back to Ange? We won't have that one. One in which Battler will come back to her? We won't have this one either. One in which Ange's family is surely without any guilt? We won't have this one either. Though, if we accept the magic ending we might call it a happy ending of some sort... but it's likely that the happy ending Ange had in mind back then wasn't that one so, technically Bern's red truth is true as long as you read it as: this story will not have the happy ending you're wishing in this moment. But well, to figure out what was in Bern's mind when she said that red is purely speculation. Quote:
The death declaration is given at the end of the game so maybe Hideyoshi and the cousins died due to the bomb... Though it's true we don't really know when they died. It's possible after moving Hideyoshi's 'corpse' someone killed him for real. |
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2012-02-03, 11:59 | Link #27610 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Hideyoshi's death being fake in EP5 makes the most sense.
Natsuhi's viewpoint isn't as reliable as a detective's, but I really see no reason for her to lie about what she's witnessing in that bit, and we already know the cousins not only faked being dead, but because of all the red truths flying around it, the adults also KNEW they were faking. I agree, I would LOVE to have seen how the rest of the gameboard played out, since it was very clearly implied to keep going after Erika accused Nats in the parlor. COME ON, RYUKISHI. COME. ON. |
2012-02-03, 12:04 | Link #27611 |
Dribble.....SHOOTOH!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Hideyoshi's absolutely seems faked, but that makes Eva's reaction sort of bizarre, even with her general dislike of Natsuhi. I guess it could be faked and Eva could think it was real, but it's still really weird. Presumably, accomplices are bribed and coerced in the same way they were in the other games, but it still feels as though something very different must have been going on behind the scenes.
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2012-02-03, 12:14 | Link #27612 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Where you're not.
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Illusions to illusions.
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Natsuhi has been falsely accused, humiliated, and awaiting the justice pretty much everyone believes she deserves. Battler explains his reasoning why Natsuhi couldn't possibly be the culprit by pinning himself as the man who threatened her and framed her, as demonstrated in the final meta-world battle of EP5, sacrificing his dignity so everyone can just stop ganging up on his aunt. Then the island blows up. The end.
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2012-02-03, 13:26 | Link #27613 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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But even if it seems faked, that wouldn't make any sense. If that's how it is, then if TMF19YA is really concerned with getting revenge on Natsuhi, Eva will need to be tricked or an accomplice.
I thought something was strange about the fact that Hideyoshi of all people was the first to realize that Kinzo might be dead. He's not really the sharpest tool in the shed. In essence, this seems to imply that Hideyoshi is an accomplice, which does make it seem as though the death would have been faked. Also, the money troubles thing provides perfect motivation for the siblings (save for Krauss) to cooperate. Most likely, Eva wasn't tricked, but rather, she was acting. But this just makes it too easy. Umineko is never this easy, is it? The very fact that all the clues are leading to this solution makes me want to question it. Though, I can't seem to find any Red Truths that refer to Hideyoshi's murder... Are there any? |
2012-02-03, 13:46 | Link #27614 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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The way Eva is described as reacting to Hideyoshi's death is really the only thing that keeps me from declaring it utterly fake. The whole circumstances of his "struggle" with an unknown culprit are illogical and implausible; he sees the attacker first but doesn't recognize them, already unlikely, and then loses a struggle? He is not a small man! Then they wrap him up in a sheet and carry him with them to the Accusing Parlor to watch as Erika gradually solves the crime.
It's just... Eva sure as hell seems to think he's dead. If he's faking, she would've looked closely and realized that. If he's really dead, they wouldn't have moved him. And if she's acting, she probably merits an Oscar. But perhaps she's just a very convincing accomplice.
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2012-02-03, 14:08 | Link #27615 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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I believe Hideyoshi's death was genuine - come on, he had a stake through his back that couldn't have been self-inflicted - but it sure is weird. Why include that detail about them carrying the corpse away? They didn't do it with any of the others.
Maybe it was just to make Erika seem like even more of a jerk by bringing up the fact that she didn't care about the corpse/murder and only the closed room, who knows. |
2012-02-03, 14:15 | Link #27616 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Quote:
When I realized it for a moment I even doubted the honesty of her pain in EP 4 post Rokkenjima incident... though likely she was being honest in EP 4. Quote:
If you take into consideration the subjective narration and the fact everyone is ganging up against Natsuhi the stake was probably never placed in his back. |
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2012-02-03, 14:18 | Link #27617 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's obviously a total fake. Eva's faking too. We've already seen her crying like crazy in EP5 over a non-existent corpse of her son.
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2012-02-03, 15:31 | Link #27618 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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2012-02-03, 15:56 | Link #27619 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Quote:
Natsuhi hides in that room at 1:00 PM and is supposed to stay there an hour so she must have left at 2:00 PM. Erika sports her shorts later and they join the others so that Erika can accuse her. However, as soon as Erika accuses her we move in the meta world where the trial starts and the time on the game board is fast forwarded. So the one jumping at Natsuhi is... some sort of meta version of Eva not the piece!Eva that was on the gameboard. |
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2012-02-03, 16:35 | Link #27620 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Where you're not.
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