Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Monoriu]

As much as I want more Madoka story, I am very happy about Shaft's prudent approach. The last thing I want is filler crap designed to make quick money. They should only do it if they have a good story to tell.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Originally Posted by woxx

Don't know if anyone posted http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2013-12-07

After Rebellion, do you have any plans for the Madoka franchise in the future?

Iwakami: No, we don't have any plans. The world of Madoka is great, and I love all the characters, so personally, if we have a great plot scenario, I personally would love to make something else Madoka. But at this point, as of right now, we don't have any official plans.

The possibility of contination is very very vague.

As others have said, I'm sure that the next part(s) of the story WILL happen, Shaft may not have any plans currently but I bet they'll all go to staff meeting 6 - 12 months down the road and start talking about where Madoka Magica will and/or can go from where Rebellion has left us.

[Monoriu]

Just saw the unsubbed version of the two-hour TV "memorial special" on movie 3. Basically a waste of time. It is about 85% summary recap of the main events in movies 1 and 2. Plus tons of repetitive advertisements about the movie, the songs, merchandise, and other anime. The rest are scenes showing the audience reaction to the movie plus Chiwa Saito and Aoi Yuki saying a few words on stage at the movie premiere. The only worthwhile part is inclusion of the first 3-4 minutes of movie 3 (Madoka, Sayaka and Kyoko's battle against the first nightmare) in blu-ray quality.

[magnum12]

Kinda funny how D&D got referenced all the sudden.

The Book of Vile Darkness talks about the nature of evil acts. Actions with bad results get divided into three groupings: accidents, recklessness, and evil (requires a certain level of malice and callousness to the actions). Personally I'm more inclined to believe Homura's actions to be in the 2nd category of well-intentioned but executed very recklessly.

I agree with the notion of Lawful Good Madoka. Homura I'd say is more difficult to peg. Chaotic, most certainly. Given the general lack of malice in Homura's actions throughout the series, I think we can rule out the evil alignments. Given how she legitimately tries to avoid collateral damage (in innocent lives) and her really having issues with killing humanoids (mercy kills being the exception) suggests an adequete respect for life to not be evil. Homura seems to sincerely care about the other girls despite the way she acts.

Maybe somewhere between Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral (due to legitimate intentions albeit done in a very reckless fashion) but ACTING as Chaotic Evil (I don't buy her facade for a second).

On a side note, I find the word "Lawful" to not be a very good choice in words, which is why in my developing TTRPG game system, I'll be using the word "Ordered" to describe that side of the ethics axis (assuming Law is an aspect of order, which includes things like tradition, structure, codified laws, etc), with Lawful Neutral simply being "Ordered". I could talk about mechanics and stuff but that would go off topic.

[AuraTwilight]

Maybe somewhere between Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral (due to legitimate intentions albeit done in a very reckless fashion) but ACTING as Chaotic Evil (I don't buy her facade for a second).

That's why I went with Chaotic Neutral with Evil leaning. She's willing to get her hands dirty but isn't a fundamentally bad person.

Also Pandemonium is too perfect of an afterlife for her as she currently is holy HELL.

On a side note, I find the word "Lawful" to not be a very good choice in words, which is why in my developing TTRPG game system, I'll be using the word "Ordered" to describe that side of the ethics axis (assuming Law is an aspect of order, which includes things like tradition, structure, codified laws, etc), with Lawful Neutral simply being "Ordered". I could talk about mechanics and stuff but that would go off topic.

Well, all the Lawful alignment really means is putting a higher collective value above yourself, whether that's 'the law', family tradition, peer pressure, whatever. Chaos is basically "Screw you I do what I want, betch."

Tying Law and Order together is a bit misleading, though I'm not sure what word I'd pick to replace it. It's kind of like a Selfless/Selfish divide, but that is a LOADED pair of words.

It's kind of hilarious how Homura's question at the end of the movie like...PERFECTLY mirrors an alignment descriptor test straight out of the Dungeon Master's Guide though. Pfft.

[Tyabann]

Can you guys shut up about D&D alignments?
They're not helpful to understanding Homura's actions since good characters are well-written enough to not be boxed into simplistic alignment descriptors.
Trying to come up with an objective definition of evil is absurd anyway.

[AuraTwilight]

Can you guys shut up about D&D alignments?
They're not helpful to understanding Homura's actions since good characters are well-written enough to not be boxed into simplistic alignment descriptors.
Trying to come up with an objective definition of evil is absurd anyway.

Hehe, sorry, and I agree Homura's too complex for that. It's mostly my fault, but it kinda came up since how those were DEFINED gave some insight on why people might be calling Homura good or evil and what that MEANT and is was just sort of interesting to me. :3

More on-topic!

I'm still intensely curious to how Homura's new world works. That's the one thing that's really nagging at me the most. What happens to Magical Girls when their Soul Gems reach their limit? Do they still fight Wraiths? What do Homura's Familiars DO? What, exactly, has become of Kyubey? What is the nature of Sayaka and Nagisa as they are now? They're clearly still Puella Magi, and while it seems Sayaka's made the same wish, well...Nagisa's wish was for cheesecake when she could've healed herself/her mother. She despaired because of it. Did Homura change her wish in order to save her?

Besides Madoka's nagging attempts to re-awaken, what are Homura's actual LIMITS here? How can she be opposed, and why would someone oppose her? This world has to have some flaw that makes it inferior to Madoka's world, or there's no conflict to drive the coming Homura/Madoka ideals clash.

And what is Homura's actual gameplan here? Her talks with Sayaka and Kyubey (and her heav suicide symbolism) indicate she's not satisfied with just "keep Madoka as an ignorant and happy human". She atleast implied she wants to 'clean up the curse Kyubey helped spread'. What does that mean, exactly?

Alright, pick a discussion prompt. I brought up pretty much ALL of them.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm still intensely curious to how Homura's new world works. That's the one thing that's really nagging at me the most. What happens to Magical Girls when their Soul Gems reach their limit? Do they still fight Wraiths? What do Homura's Familiars DO? What, exactly, has become of Kyubey? What is the nature of Sayaka and Nagisa as they are now? They're clearly still Puella Magi, and while it seems Sayaka's made the same wish, well...Nagisa's wish was for cheesecake when she could've healed herself/her mother. She despaired because of it. Did Homura change her wish in order to save her?

Besides Madoka's nagging attempts to re-awaken, what are Homura's actual LIMITS here? How can she be opposed, and why would someone oppose her? This world has to have some flaw that makes it inferior to Madoka's world, or there's no conflict to drive the coming Homura/Madoka ideals clash.

And what is Homura's actual gameplan here? Her talks with Sayaka and Kyubey (and her heav suicide symbolism) indicate she's not satisfied with just "keep Madoka as an ignorant and happy human". She atleast implied she wants to 'clean up the curse Kyubey helped spread'. What does that mean, exactly?

Alright, pick a discussion prompt. I brought up pretty much ALL of them.

The best theory I've heard on how the Law of Cycles works is that magical girls are still saved from despair. But rather than going to magical girl heaven with Madoka, they just die. There's no afterlife, just the void. The Law of Cycles has lost all personal emotion and is now an impartial force of the universe. That would definitely be enough to get Madoka to rebel against Homura's world.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

With that ending there is no way there won't be a continuation.

The ending has nothing to do with it. It's all about money. If the producers believe the series can still be milked, they will do a continuation even if the ending didn't have any hook for it.

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

There's no way there isn't going to be a continuation; that ending makes it impossible

That's nonsense. The ending is sort of twisted, but it doesn't necessarily call for a continuation. Homura's world is probably far from perfect, but Madoka's wasn't perfect either, and while the fans would probably like something closer to a "perfect ending," the series doesn't necessarily need such a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I do think there will be more Madoka, but not because the plot call for it. They're going to milk it because its popularity calls for it.

[FierceAlchemist]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's nonsense. The ending is sort of twisted, but it doesn't necessarily call for a continuation. Homura's world is probably far from perfect, but Madoka's wasn't perfect either, and while the fans would probably like something closer to a "perfect ending," the series doesn't necessarily need such a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I do think there will be more Madoka, but not because the plot call for it. They're going to milk it because its popularity calls for it.

I suppose they could end it with Rebellion, but I don't think they will, both for money and for plot. Seeing Madoka almost becoming Madokami and hearing Homura says "Someday you may also become my enemy" certainly suggests there's more story Shaft wants to tell.

Personally, I'm of the mind that Shaft should make another TV show that wraps up the story. They can continue making spinoffs or anime set in the Madoka world, but I want Homura and Madoka's story to be wrapped up in whatever comes next. I hope they don't milk it too long.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The ending has nothing to do with it. It's all about money. If the producers believe the series can still be milked, they will do a continuation even if the ending didn't have any hook for it.

Though from interviews, Urobuchi seemed to imply he had another ending that was more concrete in store before the studio coerced him to change it to one like this. Therefore, they had planned ahead of time to do a continuation from this movie. Only way they wouldn't would be if he bombed fabulously.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by GDB

Though from interviews, Urobuchi seemed to imply he had another ending that was more concrete in store before the studio coerced him to change it to one like this. Therefore, they had planned ahead of time to do a continuation from this movie. Only way they wouldn't would be if he bombed fabulously.

I never said they wouldn't keep milking it.

Originally Posted by FierceAlchemist

I suppose they could end it with Rebellion, but I don't think they will, both for money and for plot. Seeing Madoka almost becoming Madokami and hearing Homura says "Someday you may also become my enemy" certainly suggests there's more story Shaft wants to tell.

Even with those lines, this ending is an ending. There is a hook if someone wants to take it (and they will). But if they don't, this ending works just fine. It's twisted and definitely not happy, but it suits Urobuchi and the series just find imo.

Originally Posted by FierceAlchemist

Personally, I'm of the mind that Shaft should make another TV show that wraps up the story.

My point is just the story is wrapped up as is. On its own this ending gives enough closure. A somewhat dark closure, but closure nonetheless.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I never said they wouldn't keep milking it.

Just saying, if they specifically changed the ending from what was originally intended to be a closed ending to one with open threads, then the ending clearly has something to do with it.

[Tyabann]

If you guys had actually read the interview translations, Urobuchi only had the idea for a different, less open ending, not a fully written script or anything like that. It was quite early in production that he got told to write an ending that left room for a continuation, and while it was Shinbo who came up with the idea of making Homura and Madoka enemies, that was the script Urobuchi ended up writing.

Please stop trying to invalidate the ending like this. Madoka was planned and produced by Magica Quartet, not Urobuchi alone; it was, from the beginning, a collaborative effort.

If you don't like the ending, that's fine, but please stop pretending as though Rebellion was ever going to be anything other than what it is.

[GDB]

Not trying to invalidate it. Just saying that if they specifically requested he change the ending to a more open one, regardless of when in production it was, then it means they fully intend to continue the franchise.

Geez, take a chill pill.

[Monoriu]

Sometimes I tell myself, this must make tons of money for Shaft. So they will make more sequels for sure, right?

But then I think of Haruhi, and I am not so sure afterall.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's nonsense. The ending is sort of twisted, but it doesn't necessarily call for a continuation. Homura's world is probably far from perfect, but Madoka's wasn't perfect either, and while the fans would probably like something closer to a "perfect ending," the series doesn't necessarily need such a thing.

I wouldn't say that the twistedness of the ending in itself demands a continuation. Rather, the very obvious sequel-baiting to practically every single scene in the last 15 minutes demands a continuation. Not that I'm sure I'd even bother watching said sequel anyway since I doubt I will ever actually like what this movie did and I found the TV-series ending perfectly satisfying in its own right, but yeah, the ending just sets up future conflicts so blatantly that not continuing it would feel like a copout.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

I wouldn't say that the twistedness of the ending in itself demands a continuation. Rather, the very obvious sequel-baiting to practically every single scene in the last 15 minutes demands a continuation. Not that I'm sure I'd even bother watching said sequel anyway since I doubt I will ever actually like what this movie did and I found the TV-series ending perfectly satisfying in its own right, but yeah, the ending just sets up future conflicts so blatantly that not continuing it would feel like a copout.

I agree.

Having Homura and her universe overwhelm Madoka and her's could work reasonably well as the ending of the entire series, depending on how you framed it. But it would be very bad to frame it with all these teasers of more to come (Madokami briefly reasserting herself, Homura talking about how they will be enemies, etc...) without having a continuation. Yeah, it would feel like a copout, and it would be a copout.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Sometimes I tell myself, this must make tons of money for Shaft. So they will make more sequels for sure, right?

But then I think of Haruhi, and I am not so sure afterall.

I think that KyoAni had a bit of a behind-the-scenes falling out with Kadokawa (perhaps due to E8, which some believe was forced on KyoAni by Kadokawa), one of their primary source material providers. And KyoAni had already done three Key works, and there was only so much Key work left unadapted there. So KyoAni decided to try to get their own in-house content to work with so they wouldn't be so reliant on Kadokawa and Key. Caught in the squeeze here is Haruhi.

Madoka is entirely different. Madoka is in-house content, basically. It's anime-original. SHAFT owns this lock, stock, and barrel. There's no source material provider that they need to deal with here.

I'm 95% confident that we'll get more Madoka anime at some point. It would have to take something truly startling to prevent it.

[Tyabann]

Shaft doesn't make that much money off of this. Aniplex does.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Shaft doesn't make that much money off of this. Aniplex does.

Care to show the financial figures supporting your claim?

And if you don't have such figures, then what do you support your claim with?