2012-09-19, 10:41 | Link #30681 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well that certainly would be a lot more tragic, but...
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BTW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APgcSNVITTI Someone should do an Umineko hell about this. Nobody's PAAFEKTO!
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2012-09-19, 10:53 | Link #30682 | |||||||||||||||||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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And after all, what if Yasu didn't really kill her family? Yasu, the author of the forgeries isn't PieceBeatrice but MetaBeatrice. PieceBeatrice is the role she assigns to herself. However, in actuality, she is Meta-Beatrice, the one who spins the tales, killing and reviving everyone endlessly. Quote:
And actually, I do sympathize with (Piece)Yasu. I'm not saying I agree with killing everyone, I'm just saying I can see how she has been hurt, regardless of disagreeing with her actions. Quote:
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Needless to say, I disagree with her choice of not coming clean with George, but it's not like it's hard to guess where it came from. Quote:
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But at least he should let those who did understand it 100% without whacking their brains. Quote:
Battler sin isn't breaking the promise, it's not even remembering about it. Quote:
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2012-09-19, 11:07 | Link #30683 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Bah damn you Ryuukishi, why do I bother to try to turn your story into a good one?
On another level, in Yasu's world (the Ushiromiya family) there isn't really any example of a successful love story. The author at least seems to genuinely wants us to care about the various members of the family's love problems. The compassion and empathy of the author and the culprit doesn't seem to match at all. Is the former depicting the later in a completely "black" way on purpose? Quote:
Indeed it feels as if there is something missing. An idea that I had is that Yasu might not be the mastermind. The game has been compared to chess very often and I'm thinking in that light that Beatrice is like the queen and already long dead. The pawn of Yasu is the one who successfully reached the other side and became the new black queen but she's still not the black king. |
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2012-09-19, 11:33 | Link #30684 | ||||||||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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Besides, Eva is not the type to forgive some stranger's mistakes if they led to her losing something. She's kind of an ass, too. Someone had to start the circus, and that someone was Yasu even if she didn't kill anyone. Quote:
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At the end, Ange got her anwers and everything else, and Erika became a detective/witch. Earn your happy ending, and all that. Quote:
Wait, what?
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2012-09-19, 15:20 | Link #30686 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-09-19, 16:06 | Link #30688 | |||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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2012-09-19, 17:32 | Link #30689 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-09-19, 17:32 | Link #30690 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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How so? |
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2012-09-19, 17:58 | Link #30691 | |||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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It's all about Yasu. The last games are all about whydunnit. So, to remark the gargantuan importance of whydunnit in a novel that's all about the heart, obviously you'd have to write everything about the culprit's thoughts and feelings to drive home the importance of why. You know, justify a little the neverending made-me-want-to-tear-my-hair repetitions of "Without love, you cannot see it(it being the motive)" Then you say 'The crime wasn't her fault/she didn't do it'. I got confused there. So EP7 was just the maid's sob story, and the real culprit is still in the shadows or lost in between lines about conspiracies and grudges? Were's the heart? Oi, really. Or I'm slow or something fishy happened there. If he just wanted to develop characters, he could've focused a little bit more on Genji and Kumasawa. You know, they are legendary for not being really known or deeply talked about. They're less developed than Shanon's bust. Less than Kinzo and his DESIRE. More than Hideyoshi, but not for much. I really liked Ep7. It was soothing, creepy and entertaining. I don't want to lower the merit of one of my favorites by believing that Yasu is completely innocent and it was all a misunderstanding. On another topic, I finally got Hane -not the transcripts in the web, but the real tips cd-. Black Battler looked like he was crossing his eyes, so I couldn't stop my giggles. The killer electric fan was made better by Battler and Jessica's crying faces everytime they got into an horrible stage. Shanon and Battler waking up in a bed, hugging each other. Way to tease, Ryu. Way to tease.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-19 at 19:26. |
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2012-09-19, 19:13 | Link #30692 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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e- The whole issue that Beatrice doesn't have an actual motive in Our Confessions, she's working entirely on a meta level. Its like an author killing off his characters. She/he has absolutely no need to do it, but he has to so that the story can progress in the matter the he/she has planned. |
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2012-09-19, 20:09 | Link #30693 | |||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I think the general idea about Yasu and her past is that her past doesn't serve as a motive but to get us to understand her mindsetting so that we are supposed to understand why she decided to kill (or to write stories in which she killed) for a certain motive.
It's sort of saying that without knowing Rosa and Maria's relation, how Rosa deals with her, how important is Sakutarou and which are Maria's beliefs we wouldn't understand why Maria would dream to become a witch and murder her mother in the most gruesome ways, merely because Rosa broke one of her toys in punishment. However with Yasu things become more troublesome as while MetaMaria's actions are dismissed as an 'innocent' fantasy of PieceMaria it's not so easy to apply the same reasoning to Yasu even when we assume that PrimeYasu is innocent and PieceYasu is only a fantasy. That is because no one is actively trying to judge MetaMaria's for killing her mother repetitely and anyway Maria's situation is depicted so well that even if her actions are wrong you can understand how she could snap. PieceYasu is however being judged and, through her, indirectly we're judging PrimeYasu and Ryukishi himself. PieceYasu isn't a random fantasy disconnected by the context, it's part of a carefully studied story that is supposed to be realistic so we expect her motive to be realistic or at least deemed realistic by who wrote her. In short it's like her author is telling us that 'people can kill for this reason' but the reason in itself is simply too weak. Now we can try to insert it in the setting because we can say that even if Maria killed Rosa due to Sakutarous' death, that's not the only reason. Umineko doesn't help us. Yasu, differently from Maria who blamed Rosa for other things as well, insists she's doing it due to Battler only (Don't hate me. You guys didn't do anything wrong. If you're gonna hate, hate that guy who trashed his promise for 6 long years.). We can either say that Yasu is in denial or that the experiences she lived unconsciously twisted her so much that she could really kill for such reasons. Her experiences still aren't depicted with the same amount of drama Maria's have. Her life doesn't seem so desperate so her clinging to the promise Battler made doesn't seem to equate with how Maria clung to Sakutarou. It's possible Ryukishi intended them to be one and the same or that for Yasu that promise was even more important that what Sakutarou was for Maria but that's not the feeling his work transmit. If I've to compare Yasu with Maria or even Ange, Yasu doesn't come out as the one with the worst life when instead it's completely possible she was the one with the worst life. It's just I get way more realistic moments of happiness for Yasu than for Maria and since Yasu hides behind the Shannon facade it's hard to assume she might not really be as happy as she might seems. Quote:
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George might have had feelings for her but it's also possible Yasu is assuming he would go to lenghts that real George isn't ready to go yet. After all she always assume in her stories that everyone would have not much problems in being her accomplices but we can't be sure that's true. If you assume that in Prime there was never a Kanon to begin with it, it becomes much easier to accept that Yasu could play two roles without troubles and without anyone recognizing her as she did it only in a story and not in the 'real world'. Quote:
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It's still horrible but in a different way... though people can react differently to things so maybe this point is mooth and Rykishi can chose to have Yasu act as he prefers. Quote:
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Yes, probably in truth the apology is also tied to the fact MetaBeato didn't really kill people, though making him believe she did so was pretty cruel. |
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2012-09-19, 20:19 | Link #30694 | |
The True Culprit
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They're pretty much all like that to some degree. A bunch of external real-world problems fucking with your life and stressing you guys out doesn't mean your love is a failure.
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2012-09-19, 21:01 | Link #30695 | |||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Maybe it's this bit? Quote:
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So...why, in a game which is all about Yasu, aren't we shown her motive for killing everyone? It looks as if you're satisfied with ep 7 as motivation for a culprit Yasu. But I'm really not satisfied with it at all. It's as if the "whydunnit" was deliberately omitted. Yasu is someone who can't manage to make a phone call to Battler, who doesn't want revenge and only blames herself (going by all the reds about Beatrice and what Beatrice says in ep 8, etcetera - although it's arguable she secretly wants some revenge against Battler), and yet...who is willing to murder everyone? Even if saying that actually she did want revenge against Battler, she didn't seem like a person who would kill all of his family - also her family - in order to do so. The only Yasu culprit theory I can see support for is the one where she chooses to lock Rokkenjima up in a cat box for all of time so that all of her loves can be realised. But problem is, I don't think she's capable of murder, and even if she was, that motive would boil down to "Yasu did it because she's insane". Which is an unsatisfying motive for a culprit. All this does lend itself to questioning whether she ever really developed a motive to kill. Ryukishi may have left out showing her deciding to do the murders because that never happened. It's still rather unsatisfying; I really want to know what happened during that time, whether she's a murderess or not. ...Agh. I wanted to write more about the "heart" of the story, but I've got to go now. Anyway, what if the "without love it can't be seen" thing was not talking about Yasu's motive to kill, but instead partially referring to her not being the culprit? Or even to there being no actual culprit for Rokkenjima Prime? |
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2012-09-19, 21:30 | Link #30696 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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All that development, 'confesion', gathering of stories and testimonies...Then it's like 'alright, that's her. But she's not the culprit, you know?'. What the hell was I doing there, then?! EP7 was basically a huge mine of answers and posibilities, and the last half was all Yasuyasuyasuyasu...Beatrice. And she didn't do it. So the real core of Umineko, the whydunnit, is never adressed? I don't want to see EP7 as a huge troll. So I have to think at least that, even if Yasu didn't kill anyone directly, she was responsible for starting the massacre. Or just forgot to switch off the bomb and had weird fantasies of murdering in cold blood 16 people. As I said long ago, there's a tonshit of 'could or couldn't have happened' in Umineko, but there's some things that are necesary to at least pretend to acknowledge to follow the discussion, namely: There was some kind of murder -if we don't think anything happened in that island, there's no point in trying to solve nothing about Umineko. All is fantasy. --Alternatively, there was a misunderstanding/accidental murder that triggered the bomb. It's not like Maria was just playing with a clock and all went bang. If a murder (fake, real, accidental or whatever) was commited, someone has to be the culprit. It didn't happen for the whims of magic, like Beatrice is so insistent we believe. Be indirectly, reluctantly or oportunistically someone made a huge mess before the island went boom. If that didn't happen, discussing about Umineko has no point. It's just an accidental explosion that erased half an island. Even if those two points to begin with are highly controversial, it's necesary to at least pretend to believe them in order to make some type of reasoning in here. Otherwise the answer to all the game is "Accident/didn't happened/all was a dream" That'd be lame in so many levels I'd better uninstall Umineko and go at it with Higurashi again... So the man treats her wife like some doll, doesn't let her talk, doesn't defend her when his sister basically calls her a slut and doesn't acknowledge her efforts to be recognized as a good wife. If Natsuhi believed her position as wife was so strong and acknowledged by her husband, she'd not have delusions about Kinzo coming back to life praising her. She'd not cry alone in the hallways because his husband, again, dismissed her. The more I can see in that relationship is a guy forced to marry a woman and sort of getting used to her, and a woman so despaired for him to treat her as a wife and to belong to the family that she'd go into psycotic bursts when something else was piled to dismiss her as just a borrowed uterus that has no consequence in the family.
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Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-19 at 21:56. |
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2012-09-19, 21:43 | Link #30697 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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The way I see it is that on the surface, without looking at motivations, every single piece of evidence circumstantially points at Yasu as the sole murderer. Even if the identity of the real killer is lost in the cat box, isn't there some value in digging to the very root of the disaster and proving her innocent?
Also, @PatchworkChimera: I am not AuraTwilight.
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2012-09-20, 01:23 | Link #30698 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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It's possible that from Ryukishi's point of view, the "whodunnit" is just the "whodunnit" of the gameboards, and that the "whydunnit" for the gameboards is just that Shkanon were the puppets of meta-Beato as she wrote her stories. As in, Shkanon had no real motive other than a meta-motive. So...maybe in the end, Ryukishi didn't even mean to tell us the culprit, and the mystery was the mystery of "who is Beatrice", which episode 7 and the rest of the series did tell us. The mystery of the culprit of the gameboards and the mystery of Beatrice's heart and Yasu. It could even be what LyricalAura suggested, and that proving the innocence of Yasu is the true mystery to solve even if we'll never know the real culprit. Yes, it's weak from the traditional mystery perspective. I wanted to know the culprit and why they did it...but it seems that's not the story Ryukishi wanted to tell. I think the only way that the story Ryukishi wrote could have told us the "real" culprit is if the theory of there being no deliberate mass murdering culprit but a tragedy of misunderstandings is correct. He's shown us that the Ushiromiyas are flawed people who could potentially shoot someone if the circumstances were right. Something like the ep 7 tea party only without an "I'm randomly and stupidly evil" motive from Rudolf and Kyrie could work. Actually, with the fake murder game thing, as has been mentioned by others before, if that game was what happened, I'd feel rather uncomfortably as if Battler is the best choice of culprit; after all, he's the one the game would be aimed at. Nearly everyone else could potentially have been an accomplice to Beato, but not him, the target. The person in the best (...worst..) position to freak out with paranoia and start shooting people once he thought a mass murder was occurring. Although...were the characters really as bad as the stories say? Ep 8 had everyone being fluffy and nice. Ange had to question what the truth was, and that was either a forgery (maybe Tohya's) or something in Ange's imagination. The thing about the games is that they were written by Beatrice, and as has been mentioned up the page, although Beatrice went on about love existing in everyone's hearts, "Her true tragedy was that she couldn't see it". Yet at the same time it seems she's making herself the scapegoat for the very sake of those people. So many contradictions! Even assuming Yasu didn't kill directly, there are certainly ways like the ones you mentioned where she could have had a hand in it. Those can even work if she has no intention whatsoever of killing anybody. With fake murder game theory + accidental murders theory, she provided a stage where things could go wrong. But that one doesn't automatically make her a culprit, just a cause. |
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2012-09-20, 01:51 | Link #30699 | |||
The True Culprit
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You're going to have to point out where he doesn't acknowledge her or treats her like a doll. That's never stated and you're probably impressing your own values as fact. The heart of the matter is that the two of them hold a strict adherence to the traditional Japanese ideal of a marriage, but their life difficulties make things tumultuous. Quote:
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Why aren't you bringing up how they acted when they were still dating? When they couldn't conceive a baby? When Kinzo recently passed away and they both contributed equally to finding the situation and appreciated each other? Instead, you're focusing on the moment where all of Krauss's siblings were trying to incriminate Krauss and bankrupt him and Natsuhi lost her cool in an argument with Eva that had them both being disruptive and loud.
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2012-09-20, 02:11 | Link #30700 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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And to be as fair as possible, they're under A LOT of stress in 1986, but, y'know ... at least they're hiding the corpse together. Y'know, as a team and stuff. And they both lose their shit when they think the other is in danger. Aaaaaaand with all due respect to Natsuhi's determination, she is both very emotional, and not too clever. In a tense discussion with his siblings, it was probably for his best to ask Natsuhi to leave. She kept having outbursts that were rather childish for a 50 year old woman. Though I agree, Eva deserved a serious bitch-slap or SOMETHING when she said those things. I particularly enjoy the anime version of the scene, which shows Kyrie and Rosa sipping their tea CALMLY AS FUCK during the entire exchange. At least Rudolf looked like he felt bad. edit : Oh, I was ninja'd by AuraTwilight But no seriously go watch that scene in the anime as Kyrosa gives no shits at all, it's almost beautiful. As if to say "Man she pulls this shit every year when we come here, EVERY YEAR MAN." |
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