Growing out of anime

[Veritas]

I heard a lot of positive things about GL. So I did look it up, but you can't say that the ANN or anidb have some sort of bouncing boob quotient in their summaries. The only Gainax series I've seen are Evangelion, Nadia, FLCL and KonoMini. First 2 were good, FLCL was overhyped but watchable, and KonoMini was the aforementioned lots of girls, tears and boobs.

When I'm looking for something to watch, I click on a name I think sounds interesting, then follow the links to one of those summary pages. It's usually a school romance harem. Maybe it's because those sorts of anime have interesting names (KimiNozo being the prime example. As I've said before, worst anime with the best title I've ever seen), or other genres just suck at naming their shows, but when all I see is an HTML links page, there's little else to go by. Click on one, it's a dude who's wrapped up with girls who are mermaids or angels or robots or aliens or dogs or dead or comatose or maids or nurses or battle maidens.

I don't hate romance. I don't hate mecha. If a show's good, it's good. I'm watching RomeoxJuliet, which everyone knows is a canonical romance, but it's interesting besides that. It's just when the same idea gets repeated over and over again, with no more variation the the main love interest's hair color and origin, it's tiresome.

[KholdStare]

I feel the same thing with some of the old anime series but for some others, I still love them deeply. For example, I'm not sure why I used to think Love Hina is the best anime I've ever watched since I really would not want to rewatch it ever again. But for some, such as CCS, KimiNozo, and Elfen Lied, I've rewatched them 3-4 times and I wouldn't mind seeing the series again. Actually, I already rewatched one two months ago and really want to rewatch the other two. My main problem is that new anime isn't giving me that "wow" feeling anymore. In 2006, Welcome to the NHK! and Kanon was "okay" and Suzumiya was "above average." None of the other anime in 2006 wow'ed me. In 2007, I found Nodame "excellent" but other than that, everything else just feels average and repetitive. The fact that I've only been able to find one "excellent" anime in two years may be that I'm growing out of it. However, the older series still spark interest in me, and I guess it's the memories of them that will keep me hooked on anime but like Nodame and Suzumiya, only very original things will continue that interest. I might have loved Love Hina for its comedy and intricate romance, but if I see another romance comedy, I'll say, "Oh, it's just another romance comedy."

The Law of Diminishing Returns states that beyond some point, each additional unit of variable input yields less and less additional output. An analogy is as you take the first bite of that pizza, it's really good. If you force yourself on a fifth slice, then your stomach will tell you to stop. As beautiful and memorable anime is to me, the law holds true.

[HyugaHinata]

Originality's good, but it's not the be-all and end-all of anime, or of anything else, for that matter.

Doing familiar things *well* is also important. Originality can involve ludicrous over-the-top ideas that end up confounding rather than entertaining an audience.

I know what you mean about recycled ideas, though. I thought Naruto was good until I saw Hunter x Hunter. Then I knew where Naruto got most of its ideas from. Not only that, but Hunter x Hunter had much better pacing.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Veritas

I heard a lot of positive things about GL. So I did look it up, but you can't say that the ANN or anidb have some sort of bouncing boob quotient in their summaries. The only Gainax series I've seen are Evangelion, Nadia, FLCL and KonoMini. First 2 were good, FLCL was overhyped but watchable, and KonoMini was the aforementioned lots of girls, tears and boobs.

Nadia was long ago, and so was Eva (which was also more Anno than Gainax). And do you perceive FLCL as so much different from Gurren-Lagann?

Originally Posted by Veritas

When I'm looking for something to watch, I click on a name I think sounds interesting, then follow the links to one of those summary pages. It's usually a school romance harem. Maybe it's because those sorts of anime have interesting names.

You're in the position of somebody who walks into a CD shop, buys the first CD he sees because of an "interesting name", walks home, listens to it, and finds out that is doesn't meet his tastes. And concludes that he has "grown out of music".

Maybe you have grown out of anime. Most people do that sooner or later. (But since you're already an adult I'd rather call it "losing interest".) But I wouldn't so easily put the blame on the medium especially when you equate anime with boobs, guns, and harem. Which I find rather strange for somebody who's been into anime and manga for at least 10 years.

Originally Posted by Veritas

As I've said before, worst anime with the best title I've ever seen), or other genres just suck at naming their shows, but when all I see is an HTML links page, there's little else to go by. Click on one, it's a dude who's wrapped up with girls who are mermaids or angels or robots or aliens or dogs or dead or comatose or maids or nurses or battle maidens.

I think The Doors were lucky that most people don't simply go by names. And I wouldn't even know by which criteria I should decide if "Gurren-Lagann" sounds better than "Dennou Coil". "Little else to go by"? I don't understand. If you only spend the five minutes it takes to randomly click on a handful of names in a list and read the synopsis to choose your anime, no wonder the result is less than optimal. Even in the busy Aprils and Octobers there aren't more than about 60 shows to check out. So it's not that you have to give up your life or job to spend the one, two minutes it takes per anime to find out what they're about even if they don't have a cool name. And just to detect "girls who are mermaids or angels or robots or aliens or dogs or dead or comatose or maids or nurses or battle maidens" 20 seconds are actually already enough.

[KholdStare]

Originality's good, but it's not the be-all and end-all of anime, or of anything else, for that matter.

Doing familiar things *well* is also important. Originality can involve ludicrous over-the-top ideas that end up confounding rather than entertaining an audience.

I know what you mean about recycled ideas, though. I thought Naruto was good until I saw Hunter x Hunter. Then I knew where Naruto got most of its ideas from. Not only that, but Hunter x Hunter had much better pacing.

Yeah you're right, but the anime that I think are very good are original and really hasn't been done ever before or again (see my top five favorites in my sig). There isn't another KimiNozo, and I thought Elfen Lied had the best mixture of plot/animation/romance/comedy/action ever. We all know that Place Promised was special, and as rare as romance without comedy anime are, this one has something else. Mahoromatic is really just another romance/comedy, and this is well I agree with you. Unlike Love Hina, I found that this is better in many ways and not so I love you/I hate you/I love you more/I hate you now/let's kiss type of anime. This is truly one of my most favorite anime that I finished recently. About CCS, well that's just special. I won't go into detail about this one.

[SeijiSensei]

I think you need to expand your horizons. Have you watched shows like Hataraki Man or Bartender? How about Seirei no Moribito or Saiunkoku Monogatari? Nodame Cantabile? Hidamari Sketch? I doubt you'd find much in the way of "bad dialogue, tit shot, weak story, fake characters, bouncing breasts, stupid misunderstandings, tears, teh bewbs, a huge gun, and more boobs" in any of these recently released shows.

[False Dawn]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Yeah you're right, but the anime that I think are very good are original and really hasn't been done ever before or again (see my top five favorites in my sig).

It amuses me that you list Naruto and Bleach as shows you're currently watching. Are you watching shows, therefore, that you don't think are good?

Anyway, who says you have to specifically watch new series? I suppose it depends on your regular consumption of anime per season, but I find that I miss a number of series every season that someone raves about to me (you have to learn who to take reccommendations from ) - and there's always older series. There are groups solely dedicated to subbing older series, and the occasional rare gem pops up that finds fans even now. When I have time, I go back and watch some series that were released before I knew about fansubbed anime. Because of that, I've really enjoyed series like Ayashi no Ceres, Martian Successor Nadesico and Now and Then, Here and There.

You don't have to limit yourself to what's being released now. Nothing's stopping you from going back to watch series that may be old, but still worth watching.


EDIT: However, eulogising the past is a waste of time, and usually completely biased. While I admit there are series I love from the 90s and early 2000s, there are still some good series being released at the moment ~ things like Honey & Clover (all right, that's finished, but still recent), Welcome to the NHK, SuzuHaru, Nodame Cantabile and several others that have been mentioned in this thread. Perhaps it seems as though there's less "originality" at the moment, but then, surely that's quantitive? Everything's been done before in some way, so surely it's about the interpretation of the idea that counts?

Moral: A series with boobs is not immediately bad.

[4Tran]

I'm not sure that it's a fair expectation for shows to "wow" anyone. Occasionally, there will be the odd show that demands the attention of the audience, but even then not everyone will like it. Having said that, it's rather curious to see diatribes against originality and innovation when the 2006-2007 anime constitute the most original and innovative period creatively since the early '90s. Just a glance at some of the works listed in this thread will reveal that there are literally scads of shows that are anything but cookie-cutter. Here are the trends in anime as far as I can see:

1. The death of the OVA format and the rise of the late-night 12-14 episode shows. This trend has been going on for quite a while, and it's probably the second-biggest change in anime in the last twenty years. On the one hand, it's bad because OVAs are usually less beholdened to broadcast schedules and constraints; thus opening the door to more innovation and higher quality animation. Also, a lot of the late-night shows of the early 2000s had a samey feel to them; a feel that only started changing very recently. On the other hand, it's good because a lot of shows that would have otherwise never been made ended up getting broadcast. This trend is probably the one that's most responsible for complaints about lack of originality (other than for fans who pine for the "golden age").

2. The adpotion of digital animation. This is easily the most important event to happen to anime ever. While some people may prefer cel-animation, the new digital techniques are capable of doing things that wouldn't have been possible before - Seirei no Moribito is an excellent exhibition of such techniques. The other big advantage is that it drives production costs down, allowing more anime to be made.

3. The resurgence of mecha. There are more mecha shows being made today than any time since the '80s. This is likely related to animation companies mastering 3D animation techniques or because they're trying to capitalize on the success of other mecha shows (probably the Gundam Seed series). While I'm not particularly fond of the current trend in mecha shows, there are stil quite a few interesting ideas in this genre.

4. Shoujo anime for everyone. There's more shoujo/josei shows than ever before, and many of them are more accessible than their predecessors were. Moreover, they tend to be quite different from the comic hijinks often found in shounen romance shows, so there's plenty of stuff to see if you're interested in more variety or if you're interested in drama in general.

5. More appealing to the otaku set. More anime are made that are designed to appeal to people who are interested in a particular character "type" or parodies/references to other shows. Examples would be Keroro Gunso, Pani Poni Dash, and Lucky Star. This trend tends to stratify fan groups and lends shows to be less acessible. I'm not particularly fond of this trend, but such shows are very obvious and easy to avoid, and they can hardly detract from the quality of other shows.

6. More innovation and variety. As I stated above, there's more interesting stuff out there than there has been in a long time. Anime became less experimental in the '90s largely due to the downturn in the Japanese economy. That economy has finally picked up recently, and I think that this return to more experimentation may be linked to that.

7. The tightening of Japanese broadcast standards. As most obviously illustrated by the Girls Bravo debacle, Japanese TV stations aren't allowing certain things to be broadcast which means that either there's a two-tier system where the TV version has quite a few edits compared to the DVD version, or shows will be toned down with these standards in mind. It also leads to weird stuff like nudity being acceptable, while panty-shots aren't; or the mere sight of nipples being cause for celebration among certain fans. While I think that this kind of (self-)censorship is disappointing, it's not exactly a huge cause for concern, particularly if one is willing to buy the legitimate DVDs.

overall, I can't see a whole lot of reason for complaint about the current state of anime. While there obviously would be stuff that certain people don't like, it's not exactly all that difficult to steer clear of it. It's also quite possible to lose interest in anime, but it'd be because of the individual, not anything to do with the quality of anime available. Finally, while it's natural to want more of a certain kind of show, we don't always get what we want - and that applies as equally to real life as it does to different media and genres of entertainment.


Off-topic:

Originally Posted by KholdStare

The Law of Diminishing Returns states that beyond some point, each additional unit of variable input yields less and less additional output.

By the way, the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply here as it's only supposed to be relevant to systems and processes where you are doing the inputting. Merely watching anime is not at all like being part of the productive process, so the analogy doesn't work.

[HyugaHinata]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Yeah you're right, but the anime that I think are very good are original and really hasn't been done ever before or again (see my top five favorites in my sig). There isn't another KimiNozo, and I thought Elfen Lied had the best mixture of plot/animation/romance/comedy/action ever. We all know that Place Promised was special, and as rare as romance without comedy anime are, this one has something else. Mahoromatic is really just another romance/comedy, and this is well I agree with you. Unlike Love Hina, I found that this is better in many ways and not so I love you/I hate you/I love you more/I hate you now/let's kiss type of anime. This is truly one of my most favorite anime that I finished recently. About CCS, well that's just special. I won't go into detail about this one.

I agree. Good, original anime is almost always going to be better than good anime that borrows from other animes. CCS does appear to be unique. Thanks for reminding me. I've gotta get around to watching it sometime.

[Scribble]

I think A LOT of people, including me, have gone through this phase at some point. For more "original", "wow-factor" stories, you may want to try manga. Or just stop watching for a few months, which is what I just did. Since new anime is aired on a regular basis, there's BOUND to be something that you're excited about.

If not, try a new hobby.

[lftwgr]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Off-topic:

By the way, the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply here as it's only supposed to be relevant to systems and processes where you are doing the inputting. Merely watching anime is not at all like being part of the productive process, so the analogy doesn't work.

Maybe the more appropriate theory to use here is that which applies in consumer behavior - it is assumed that consumers have a preference for a 'balanced' basket, so that if a utility curve were to be drawn to depict satisfaction derived from consuming any combination of 2 or more goods, it would be convexed-shaped (exhibiting a diminishing marginal rate of substitution - i.e. the consumer, in consuming more of good A becomes less and less satisfied with good A and is more willing to pay a higher price for consuming good B - also called satiation).

To put it in the context of this discussion, as the original poster 'consumes' more and more harems/mechas the satisfaction he derives from 'buying' such animes with his 'income' (free time in a day) reduces to the point that he derives no additional satisfaction by consuming 1 more unit of harem/mecha, and he would be better off spending his time on other pursuits (other genres of anime or tv dramas).

[KholdStare]

You may want to be more technical about using the term, but indeed, it works. The more anime of the same genre you watch, the less and less you'll enjoy it. To clarify my point, an anime doesn't have to be COMPLETELY original, but it has to have some other factor in it to make it good. Case and point: Mahoromatic. It's romance/comedy, has lots of boobs (and trust me, it has boobs and MORE), and it's easily #5 on my list because somehow, I just enjoy it altogether. It has a "wow" factor (or in this case, an "extremely funny" factor). About the law my economics teacher used the same example--the pizza. In this case the pizza is the input, and so I made that analogy to anime being the input. If I'm wrong, I have justification.

@FalseDawn: Yes I'm currently watching Naruto and Bleach. This is a case of I-found-the-plot-really-interesting-but-I-hate-fillers. In other words, the fillers are so intertwined with the plot itself that it's hard for me to drop it altogether. I'm weird, I know. And you're right of course about not having to watch new series. I started to watch Mahoromatic and Suzuka in 2007 because it looked good. Well, I enjoyed them. Right now I'm watching Eureka Seven.

And of course, anime is a double-edged sword. On one hand it's really really really good. When I first got into anime, I was like, "Wtf these Japanese people are wonderful." But then, your expectations also increase, and if anime continues to be as good, then your satisfaction won't stay the same. For example, I might find shows in 2006-2007 not the best I've watched, but a person who's just started anime would view them as superior over American animation and just simply love them.

[Veritas]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Nadia was long ago, and so was Eva (which was also more Anno than Gainax). And do you perceive FLCL as so much different from Gurren-Lagann?

So you don't think things that happened in the past should be considered when judging what might happen in the future? FLCL wasn't so much boobs as it was penis, which, although not my interest, has at least not gotten the same focus and could be construed as sort of original. I liked the first episode more than any of the others anyway, before it became a weird allegory for Naota's sexual maturity, which is still a damn sight more involving than the pointless eye candy you get with Yoko. And Hikari, Akari, Jennifer, and thousands of other anime chicks, with no end in sight.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

You're in the position of somebody who walks into a CD shop, buys the first CD he sees because of an "interesting name", walks home, listens to it, and finds out that is doesn't meet his tastes. And concludes that he has "grown out of music".

Maybe you have grown out of anime. Most people do that sooner or later. (But since you're already an adult I'd rather call it "losing interest".) But I wouldn't so easily put the blame on the medium especially when you equate anime with boobs, guns, and harem. Which I find rather strange for somebody who's been into anime and manga for at least 10 years.

Wrong. I'm in the position of someone who has been a fan of a medium for a long time, and is watching their tastes begin to deviate from the mainstream, while the mainstream gets larger. I don't equate anime with boobs, guns, and harems, but I find it disappointing that the more recent, more popular series are ones involving those. And since anime is an industry like any other, what's popular gets made more. Do you think "Happiness" got an adaptation because it was unique? Of course not. From what I've percieved, it was a mediocre-at-best game that got turned into a less than mediocre anime because at least slavering eroge otaku would watch it.

Consider the series that were/are popular enough to warrant their own forum on this site. I've watched at least part of 25 of them, and I only really liked MariMite and Haruhi, mostly because I caught some of the jokes and Haruhi herself wasn't a wilting flower that is so prevalent in most of the other series.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

5. More appealing to the otaku set. More anime are made that are designed to appeal to people who are interested in a particular character "type" or parodies/references to other shows. Examples would be Keroro Gunso, Pani Poni Dash, and Lucky Star. This trend tends to stratify fan groups and lends shows to be less acessible. I'm not particularly fond of this trend, but such shows are very obvious and easy to avoid, and they can hardly detract from the quality of other shows.

I think this describes the hurdle I've been running into.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Wrong. I'm in the position of someone who has been a fan of a medium for a long time, and is watching their tastes begin to deviate from the mainstream, while the mainstream gets larger. I don't equate anime with boobs, guns, and harems, but I find it disappointing that the more recent, more popular series are ones involving those.

Deviating from the mainstream is the keyword. In other words you don't like plastic pop and emo anymore but it seems you're also not willing to spend energy on finding out if electronic music or experimental jazz fits you tastes. Because as a mainstream watcher you never needed to do anything than clicking on "interesting titles". But that's not how things works once you get off mainstream as follows from the very definiton of "off mainstream", duh.

BTW, the popular series were always involving boobs and guns, and if not harem, then mecha and super sentai teams. Plus, the mainstream may be growing because the market is growing but the market has also become more diverse than ever before.

Originally Posted by Veritas

Consider the series that were/are popular enough to warrant their own forum on this site. I've watched at least part of 25 of them, and I only really liked MariMite and Haruhi, mostly because I caught some of the jokes and Haruhi herself wasn't a wilting flower that is so prevalent in most of the other series.

You're tired of the mainstream. I got it. So simply trying out what is popular is obviously not the way to go, is it?

So there are two possibilities. 1. You start looking more actively for shows that might fit your tastes, or, if you think it's not worth the hassle, 2. you stop watching anime before you kill yourself for stumbling over yet another mainstream show.

I can only advice you to try number one first. Sorry for not only stating but repeating the obvious: Keeping an eye on new anime productions is really not that time consuming considering the small production rate of shows (compared to books, CDs, TV shows ...).

And if you then find out that the off mainstream shows also suck, just on a different level you can still stop watching anime.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

You're tired of the mainstream. I got it. So simply trying out what is popular is obviously not the way to go, is it?

So there are two possibilities. 1. You start looking more actively for shows that might fit your tastes, or, if you think it's not worth the hassle, 2. you stop watching anime before you kill yourself for stumbling over yet another mainstream show.

I can only advice you to try number one first. Sorry for not only stating but repeating the obvious: Keeping an eye on new anime productions is really not that time consuming considering the small production rate of shows (compared to books, CDs, TV shows ...).

And if you then find out that the off mainstream shows also suck, just on a different level you can still stop watching anime.

Actually I'll rather he went for No. 2 now. That way he saves himself, as well as the rest of us, much unneccessary grief.

[Vexx]

@OP: That's good ... I was going to suggest the suicide option as well but I find it hard to believe someone younger than me has "seen everything". Your mom is right --- you're seeing the same root stories that have been around for 40,000 years... just layered with more complexity and frills.

What is important is the style in which the archetypal stories are relayed. Is it a genre you like? An art-style? A particular form of humor? Execution, pacing, etc.

I guess its kind of like the first time you discover your favorite song is actually the 4th or 5th recycle/cover of a tune that dates back to the 19th C.

[dojikyo]

Try a genre other than action/sci-fi. Nana and Honey & Clover are both pretty good.

Since you mentioned liking Romeo x Juliet, try Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo. The title gives it away. A liberal adaptation of a novel by Gonzo, the same company that is making Romeo x Juliet. It is does have quite a bit of science fiction in it though.

Vexx: Funny you mentioned that cover thing. I recently found out that Soft Cell's "Tainted Love" was a cover of an older song.

[xxanimefan4_ever]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Looking back, I realize that I could ignore what would piss off the current me. The juvenile humor, the unnecessary tit shots, the ridiculous martial arts and lack of plot. Now I see a million anime being torrented and see the same thing, only maybe with better animation. Bad dialogue, tit shot, weak story, fake characters, bouncing breasts, stupid misunderstandings, tears, teh bewbs, a huge gun, and more boobs. I wonder who the hell would eat this up, then I start paying attention to what some other people say and realize that this anime is made for those people. And there are a lot of those people. What's worse is some of them seem to be aware that what they're watching is the same thing they've watched before and they're fine with it. I mean, what I was saying before is that you're bound to have some anime be derivative as fuck, but when a huge chunk of it is stuff someone else has made before, well, what the hell is the point? Why do I have to wade through 20 harems a season to find something I might want to watch? Does everyone think that sticking a "new and improved" on the same formula actually makes it better? I've lost my patience with the whole world.

omg I totally agree with this.I haven't watched anime in forever... especially the crap they splurge out now... i can just tell from the picture the anime is gonna be shit.

[solomon]

Mixed feeling here.

Admittedly, I can understand kind of "growing out" of the deal. I am 23. Naturally things loose their luster as time goes on.

More specificially with anime, I have come to the EARTH SHATTERING CONCLUSION that it's just well, TV (movies as well but mainly tv). There is a TON of crap on TV that I got tired of over the years, anime is no different.

One other thing, I think anime is rather limited in the expressions and stories it tells. Never really veering from certain established norms (structure/viewpoint) that at times seem even more confining than it's live action counterpart. This can range from design (the doe eyed moe subgroup among others) to various storytelling tropes (shonen brawlers, harem shows, etc. often don't have thoughtful wrinkles or breaking up of story or character patterns enough to provide a lot of variety).

Anime was a "world saver" to me when I was a teenager, Made me sit up and say "WOW CARTOONS ARENT JUST ELECTRONIC BABYSHITTERS, THEY CAN ACTUALLY BE....COOL!" Now I realize that it can't "save the world" in an entertainment aspect so much any more AND SURE AS HELL NOT from an artistic aspect. Expecting so from such a heavily commericalized industry is ludicrous no matter how you shake it. Especially one that has seen it's domestic (Japanese) audience crumble in the past 20 years.

Despite that, I still manage to find at least 1-2 shows a season that capture my interest. Then of course there is a great archive of shows to look back upon.

I do admit that unless you have a high tolerance for the tropes and tricks anime doles out it gets hard to sit through the same stuff season after season. No real harm in that, tastes change as with anything else.

Still I'd recommend manga in general because you get a much wider variety of stories than you normally do with anime, particuarly for non-otaku teenage and adult audiences which anime counterparts BARELY exist. In fact, I read MUCH more manga than I do anime now, mainly because of the higher amount of variety in story, characters, tone and viewpoint.

[Cream]

To be honest, knowing that one day i'm going to go through a phase where i won't be able to watch anime or read manga as much as i do today is depressing. Its really sad that i'll have to back off of it for a while. But to be honest, i'll watch even when im 30+ , 40+ , 50+ . I'll always come back .

This video will explain what i mean and how i'll feel. Not exactly , but its pretty damn close except its not about harry potter but about anime :|

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUkhL...&feature=feedu