Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by mangastuff

And Suzaku is a murderer and a traitor

While Suzaku certainly murdered his father, why do you think he's a traitor? Would it be because the death of the Prime Minister finished Japan's resistance or because he joined the Britannian military? I've already explained the latter, but the former is similar to what the Japanese peace faction did at the end of World War II, and I don't think that anyone would reasonably see them as traitors.

Originally Posted by mangastuff

If you want a protagonist as a hero char in an action anime, then Lulu may make you disappointed because he is too evil for you. But if you want a protagonist who is more human in a political/epic anime, I guess he may suit your taste.

To be more selfish isn't necessarily the same thing as being more human. In his own way, Lelouch is every bit as much of an ideologue as Suzaku - it's mostly that his means are more ruthless.

Originally Posted by mangastuff

Anyway, no Great King, Great Empiror, Great President, Great General. etc., i.e Great Hero in our human history is an innocent person. Because if you are too good, you die before you can reach the power. However, I believe Lulu is still too naive for a "Great" then

I don't think that you're right. Lelouch isn't great, but that's more because he has trouble building on his successes, and because he's been over reliant on the incompetence of his enemies. Moreover, Lelouch hasn't built up a good command cadre, and as a result, he only seems capable of maintaining command over his minions if he's in the immediate vicinity - the events of 25 graphically illustrate that.

While ruthlessness is a key component for "Greatness", it's actually the ability to achieve (or sometimes to fail spectacularly!) that is the main qualifier. Lelouch still isn't there yet. In any case, striving for "Greatness" isn't much of an excuse for being a total jerk.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Saitama is just a more obviously wrong application of the tactics used by the Americans at Fallujah: trap the insurgents into a tight geographical area, and then annihilate everyone within it. While it's not a particularly nice thing to do, it's a solid military tactic. Given that the reason for such a harsh response was the death of her brother, I think that it's at least partially justifiable.

So let me get this straight, killing everyone in an area, innocents and terrorists alike so as to draw out one person who murdered a sibling = justified military strategy but fighting against an oppressive dictatorship so as to gain a world for a weaker sibling and then using tactics to achieve that = not justified? Hahahahahahah

[Jaka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are exactly angels. Lelouch is acting overwhelmingly for selfish purposes and most of the good he does is largely either incidental or done to further his own position. While he will act against his own interest in a few cases, it's mostly done to protect those close to him; actions that are consistent with how selfish people often act. The one exception to this was when Lelouch decided to accept Euphemia's offer.

Not really "selfish", if you put yourself in his shoes and think about it that way.

1)Your mother has been killed.
2)Your father doesn't give a shit.
3)You see links between 1 & 2.
4)Your beloved sister is paralyzed and is blind due to 1).
5)The ruler of the country is harsh, more towards racism (Like the apartheid in South Africa), massacres are happening like its normal.
6)Due to Suzaku's influence, because he was Lelouch's childhood friend, his own family took down his friends country, and his family doesn't care about him. It's kinda obvious you would also want to avenge your friend.

Of course, what Lelouch is saying 1),2),3),4) are the main reasons he decides to be so "selfish" and 5),6) might be the reasons to cover-up, but still 5),6) are still pretty good reasons, its a fair deal, he uses Japan to defeat Brittania and he gets what he wants, also at the same time Japan freed themselves. I see no problem with that. Even so, LASTLY - he got the power of Geass! The power to change everything, who wouldn't do it? Your mother has been murdered, your sister is hurt. Just those two reasons would make me kill to avenge. Wouldn't you guys do too?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

So let me get this straight, killing everyone in an area, innocents and terrorists alike so as to draw out one person who murdered a sibling = justified military strategy but fighting against an oppressive dictatorship so as to gain a world for a weaker sibling and then using tactics to achieve that = not justified? Hahahahahahah

I am just surprised that I agreed with 4Tran on so many issues in the Gundam forums, yet here I have a view of Lulu that is so different from his.

Well, I think I will count on evilplushie to support my views on Lulu; I haven't yet seen the latest episodes, and as such feel unfit to make compelling arguments.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

So let me get this straight, killing everyone in an area, innocents and terrorists alike so as to draw out one person who murdered a sibling = justified military strategy

I said that it's a "solid military tactic", not "strategy", but you're pretty much correct. When a guerilla force protects itself by hiding within a civilian population, they are relying on their occupiers to leave this population alone for protection. However, the occupier doesn't have to cooperate. As I pointed out earlier, it's not all that different from the Battle of Fallujah; the main difference being that the Britannian effort was more effective and that their troops were much more willing to fire upon civilians. The fact that it was also to avenge Clovis was just an additional justification.

Had Cornelia actually given any orders for her troops to specifically target and slaughter civilians, then that would be one thing. However, the massacres were mostly spontaneous actions on the part of her troops, so they can't be completely attributed to her. The only thing that can be blamed on her was that she should have known that they would exceed their orders.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

but fighting against an oppressive dictatorship so as to gain a world for a weaker sibling and then using tactics to achieve that = not justified?

You've misread my arguments. Nowhere in my posts did I say that Lelouch wasn't justified in trying to overthrow Britannia; I merely said that he was acting for selfish reasons.

Originally Posted by Jaka

Even so, LASTLY - he got the power of Geass! The power to change everything, who wouldn't do it? Your mother has been murdered, your sister is hurt. Just those two reasons would make me kill to avenge.

That is precisely what it means to act selfishly: to act out of one's personal interest when much greater events are at hand; and to place those interests ahead of any greater purpose.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well, I think I will count on evilplushie to support my views on Lulu; I haven't yet seen the latest episodes, and as such feel unfit to make compelling arguments.

Feel free to join in. There isn't much here that's taken from the last couple of episodes.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well, I think I will count on evilplushie to support my views on Lulu; I haven't yet seen the latest episodes, and as such feel unfit to make compelling arguments.

Ugh, burden...suddenly...so heavy...

And yes, Lelouch can be said to be acting out of selfish reasons. But in all honesty, who within the CG universe doesnt?

edit: And I disagree that the sudden slaughter of 'civilians' was a spontaneous action by her troops. Keep in mind she was in charge and commanding them there. And that she wanted a repeat of Shinjuku in which, you guessed it, everyone in the area; civvy or otherwise, was ordered to be killed.

[Methuselah]

Originally Posted by Jaka

1)Your mother has been killed.
2)Your father doesn't give a shit.
3)You see links between 1 & 2.
4)Your beloved sister is paralyzed and is blind due to 1).
5)The ruler of the country is harsh, more towards racism (Like the apartheid in South Africa), massacres are happening like its normal.
6)Due to Suzaku's influence, because he was Lelouch's childhood friend, his own family took down his friends country, and his family doesn't care about him. It's kinda obvious you would also want to avenge your friend.

You forgot to add..

7.) Lelouch was stripped off his title and family, along with his crippled sister as well as being sent to enemy territory as political hostages. *And because of that, Lelouch had to take care of her 6(?) year old sister by himself and risks getting beat up by people outside. (Which he has been beaten.)

[Majek]

Who says Lulu's mothers didn't deserve what she got? A KF pilot that rose to an empress, blood must have flown in rivers. But that doesn't matter , the only important question is WHO killed her.


Who says Japan deserves to be liberated? We only know that Brittania is supposed to be evil but we kwno nothing about Japan. They could've only gotten a taste of their own medicine and then 7 years of oppression is nothing.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Majek

Who says Lulu's mothers didn't deserve what she got? A KF pilot that rose to an empress, blood must have flown in rivers. But that doesn't matter , the only important question is WHO killed her.


Who says Japan deserves to be liberated? We only know that Brittania is supposed to be evil but we kwno nothing about Japan. They could've only gotten a taste of their own medicine and then 7 years of oppression is nothing.

Your view certainly has valid points. Unfortunately an indifferent view of morality also means you would automatically lose the ability to defend or condemn any-one's actions. Thus, if we can't claim Japan is worth freeing, then we can't claim Japan shouldn't be freed either.

Lack of information does not support any side of argument; it only makes arguments more difficult to solve.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

And yes, Lelouch can be said to be acting out of selfish reasons. But in all honesty, who within the CG universe doesnt?

True, but as I pointed out earlier, Lelouch has been more selfish than just about anyone else, so it's not much of an argument in his favour.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

edit: And I disagree that the sudden slaughter of 'civilians' was a spontaneous action by her troops. Keep in mind she was in charge and commanding them there. And that she wanted a repeat of Shinjuku in which, you guessed it, everyone in the area; civvy or otherwise, was ordered to be killed.

And until you can show how Cornelia ordered everyone killed in Saitama, my point stands. Just because she wanted to create a similar situation to Shinjuku doesn't automatically mean that she wanted it to be identical in every respect.

Originally Posted by Majek

Who says Japan deserves to be liberated? We only know that Brittania is supposed to be evil but we kwno nothing about Japan. They could've only gotten a taste of their own medicine and then 7 years of oppression is nothing.

I don't think that this is much of an argument. Even if Japan had been responsible for all sorts of atrocities, it is a very different political entity under occupation from when it was independent. There's no particular reason for people unrelated to a crime to suffer as a penalty for that crime. And without any reason to think that independent Japan acted maliciously, the default assumption is that it didn't.

In any case, it's still natural for the Japanese to fight for a better peace for themselves - the operative question is whether they do so through the use of violence or not. If their choice was violence, then it's equally natural for the Britannians to forcefully crush any uprising.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Lack of information does not support any side of argument; it only makes arguments more difficult to solve.

That isn't quite true. The lack of information suggests that the argument in the positive is fallacious, and that the default condition is correct.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Methuselah

7.) Lelouch was stripped off his title and family, along with his crippled sister as well as being sent to enemy territory as political hostages. *And because of that, Lelouch had to take care of her 6(?) year old sister by himself and risks getting beat up by people outside. (Which he has been beaten.)

That's probably untrue. A prince that truly had his title stripped from him would be useless as a political hostage. It would be more accurate to say that the Emperor regarded him as expendable when he decided to invade Japan. However, that's a risk common to all hostages.

[seraphon]

"the fact that you exist is an error"

Do end justify the means?
frankly, I think saying lelouch existance is an error isnt a good enough reason for killing him and to go rape nunally.. -_-........
suzaku, always true to himself.
And he is a fucking two timer! with 2 princess nonetheless.
First youffie dies and he plays the upset hero but we now know the true reason, goal of suzaku! It was all along nunnaly.
He says it himself:
he always knew it was lelouch but he "lied to himself"... yeah right..
and before shooting lelouch he says "nunnaly will be my (wife? slave?toy?victim???)..."
And in the end he almost says nothing about euphemia, the supposed reason for his rampage.....

I knew it, that something wasnt right with suzaku!

erf
I ll stop my ranting, but I hope suzaku will REALLY suffer. After spouting justice bullshit he says something even stupider. "The fact you exist is an error"
Damn, it should be forbidden to say such bullshit

Seraphon

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Your view certainly has valid points. Unfortunately an indifferent view of morality also means you would automatically lose the ability to defend or condemn any-one's actions. Thus, if we can't claim Japan is worth freeing, then we can't claim Japan shouldn't be freed either.

Lack of information does not support any side of argument; it only makes arguments more difficult to solve.

Yeah and the precisely why i stay out of the "debates" here most the time.

[Var]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

True, but as I pointed out earlier, Lelouch has been more selfish than just about anyone else, so it's not much of an argument in his favour.

I wonder if this can be said in light of how Suzaku thinks and acts now. Even before Euphie died he was selfish towards his warped ideals, trying to push them onto everyone else while never really giving a moments thought to any other view point.

And until you can show how Cornelia ordered everyone killed in Saitama, my point stands. Just because she wanted to create a similar situation to Shinjuku doesn't automatically mean that she wanted it to be identical in every respect.

Didn't she and Darlton discuss remaking the Shinjuku incident by removing the 'monsters' as she calls them? I could be mistaken but I could have sworn she either gave the order or sat there when the order was given.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

True, but as I pointed out earlier, Lelouch has been more selfish than just about anyone else, so it's not much of an argument in his favour.

How has he been more selfish? Because he wants to change the status quo so that his sister will eventually be able to live happily ever after? I really don't see how he has been any more selfish than the rest. You can argue that because of his beliefs, hundreds of people have been killed. But let's look at it this way, Kallen is fighting for the sake of her mother, and for that persons sake is willing to kill enemies on the battlefield until japan is liberated. How is that any more or less selfish than Lulu? Suzaku is fighting because he wants to die and because he wants redemption and vengeance, and to do that, he'll kill enemies on the battlefield until he dies/or is redeemed. How is that any more or less selfish? Seriously, how do you measure the level of selfishness in them?

And until you can show how Cornelia ordered everyone killed in Saitama, my point stands. Just because she wanted to create a similar situation to Shinjuku doesn't automatically mean that she wanted it to be identical in every respect.

Okay.....so your basic argument is that even though Cornelia was shown saying that she wanted it to be a replica of Shinjuku so as to lure Zero out, she secretly gave orders when off-screen and nobody could see/verify her to spare the civilians if possible? Um...yeah...I suppose that's not impossible, though the chances are low since basically, there's no proof otherwise.


I don't think that this is much of an argument. Even if Japan had been responsible for all sorts of atrocities, it is a very different political entity under occupation from when it was independent. There's no particular reason for people unrelated to a crime to suffer as a penalty for that crime. And without any reason to think that independent Japan acted maliciously, the default assumption is that it didn't.

That isn't quite true. The lack of information suggests that the argument in the positive is fallacious, and that the default condition is correct.

So, could I use this quote to support the above argument? Since there is a lack of information about Cornelia wanting to spare civilians and the soldiers 'spontaneously' deciding to kill them, and your argument is in the positive of that, therefore the default condition ie. viewers see Cornelia saying she wants a replica of Shinjuku to draw Zero out, is correct then?

[Majek]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't think that this is much of an argument. Even if Japan had been responsible for all sorts of atrocities, it is a very different political entity under occupation from when it was independent. There's no particular reason for people unrelated to a crime to suffer as a penalty for that crime. And without any reason to think that independent Japan acted maliciously, the default assumption is that it didn't.

What exactly has changed? All the people in power form before are still there pulling the string. People supported that regime and it's actions that lead to this war. It's leader is assumed to be a rotten bastard, infact in all other media he's been decribed like that so why should i accept Japan as a "good country" when no real facts are given.

[mist2123]

lol why do people hate war???? you know its fun seeing people killing each other
Lulu go for it kill em all!!!!!
damn i hate pro-life j/k

also suzaku is doing the impossible he cant change the inside because the emperor doesnt even give a damn when lulu's mom was killed and her sister injured.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Var

I wonder if this can be said in light of how Suzaku thinks and acts now. Even before Euphie died he was selfish towards his warped ideals, trying to push them onto everyone else while never really giving a moments thought to any other view point.

Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies. However, his vendetta against Zero may well push him into that territory. By the way, not listening to anyone else's viewpoint is a matter of stubbornness and close-mindedness, not selfishness.

Originally Posted by Var

Didn't she and Darlton discuss remaking the Shinjuku incident by removing the 'monsters' as she calls them? I could be mistaken but I could have sworn she either gave the order or sat there when the order was given.

I don't think so. I believe that she simply was recreating the conditions of Shinjuku - i.e. a siege of a rebel held enclave. Again, it brings to mind direct parallels to Fallujah.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

How has he been more selfish? Because he wants to change the status quo so that his sister will eventually be able to live happily ever after? I really don't see how he has been any more selfish than the rest. You can argue that because of his beliefs, hundreds of people have been killed. But let's look at it this way, Kallen is fighting for the sake of her mother, and for that persons sake is willing to kill enemies on the battlefield until japan is liberated. How is that any more or less selfish than Lulu? Suzaku is fighting because he wants to die and because he wants redemption and vengeance, and to do that, he'll kill enemies on the battlefield until he dies/or is redeemed. How is that any more or less selfish? Seriously, how do you measure the level of selfishness in them?

It's a matter of who Lelouch is trying to benefit - namely himself and Nunnally. Doing so in the face of the amount of suffering that his actions cause is an extremely selfish sentiment.

Kallen fights for the sake of the Japanese people as well as her mother, and Suzaku, foolish as he is, truly believed that his actions will benefit both peoples. The other telling point is that they have caused far less suffering than Lelouch has thus far.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Okay.....so your basic argument is that even though Cornelia was shown saying that she wanted it to be a replica of Shinjuku so as to lure Zero out, she secretly gave orders when off-screen and nobody could see/verify her to spare the civilians if possible? Um...yeah...I suppose that's not impossible, though the chances are low since basically, there's no proof otherwise.

That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.

Originally Posted by Majek

What exactly has changed? All the people in power form before are still there pulling the string. People supported that regime and it's actions that lead to this war. It's leader is assumed to be a rotten bastard, infact in all other media he's been decribed like that so why should i accept Japan as a "good country" when no real facts are given.

The difference is that the previous leaders are no longer in power; Britannia is. The thing is, you don't have to accept Japan as a "good country", until something comes up to show that it was heinous, there's no reason to believe that there was anything particularly bad about it.

And can you tell me why people thought so poorly of Suzaku's father? Was it for domestic or international reasons?

[mangastuff]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

While Suzaku certainly murdered his father, why do you think he's a traitor? Would it be because the death of the Prime Minister finished Japan's resistance or because he joined the Britannian military? I've already explained the latter, but the former is similar to what the Japanese peace faction did at the end of World War II, and I don't think that anyone would reasonably see them as traitors.

If you join the invador's army and fire at your ppl, then you will be a traitor no matter what you really want (Except if you are a spy ). Suzaku does want to fight for Britainian army, not that he pretends to do. As I've said, "changing from within" should be consider "balance" when you do not sacrify one side's lives and benefit. Here, Suzaku is not in the "middle" but too much pro-Britainian. Although he tried not to kill civilians (which is considered micracle actually ), he killed the Japanese solders, and save the Britainian solders who are going around killing the Japanese solders and civilains.

And your example is simply not fit.


Just want to clarify because I see you misunderstood sth:
About the "human" thing: Basically, I cannot stand those heroes who are comprehensively good and/or straightforward, who are always saved by luck and win by love, aka god-like So I consider Lulu "more human" compare to them.

About "greatness" and "naive" thing: In short I don't care about Lulu's ruthless because it is more realistic (if you see one real one with huge military power who is not ruthless, try to find whether it is an act or not, and then if not wait whether he is going to die soon or not ), but he is not "great" because he is "too naive for a hero", and that include many thing you know, what you list and even more ("a very talented kid is still a kid" )


--------------

I am sorry I have to add this, because it is a so funny arguement

That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.

so you need to hear the exact words to know that she order the massacre ? As an experient general, She knew about obvious consequence in such kind of attack, moreover, she knew what really DID happen last time. So simply saying "make another Sinjuku" without adding "dont harm the civilians" means to do what the army did do in Sinjuku, including killing civilians.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

And can you tell me why people thought so poorly of Suzaku's father? Was it for domestic or international reasons?

They didn't, he was their messiah.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies. However, his vendetta against Zero may well push him into that territory. By the way, not listening to anyone else's viewpoint is a matter of stubbornness and close-mindedness, not selfishness.

And Lelouch genuinely believed that his actions would benefit the Japanese and all the colonies, even if to him it would be more of a side effect.

That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.

The default assumption is that she didn't give any particular orders, and doing so knowingly and deliberately let her soldiers act like they usually do and kill all the civilians.