US draft?

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

Just blame the media. Like how it's the media's fault for having kids bring guns to school and how video games promote violence. Face it, if you look around, especially on some colleges, there are booths that just keep trying to convince you to impeach bush, and end the war. and CNN sometimes does talk about anti war viewss like Larry King.

I never blamed the media for the weird happenings in this modern society. But if you know how many friends of Bush have high positions in the big media market, you would not doubt some effect on them. What do you call sometimes, is indeed very seldom.

Now that was just rediculous. Can't I say the same idea to you? If you think of all the possible outcomes there's too many paths we can take.

Yeah, and you can play lottery and even win... well the chances might be low.
The basic matter is, that you have to loose something (your social standard, your relative carefree life, your family). Many of the terrorists, which USA is producing at the moment (well the war is a big reason for new terrorsit recruitments, believe or not) won't loose anything if the attack the USA even more. I just wait for the either stupid or fanatical person to use a mass destruction weapon.

What you're saying to me can be as easily applied to you.

Maybe. But please think about this:
After the tragedy with the WTC, I thought even the USA should have realised, that there is no real winner in a war nowadays. (I suggest you know the reason why Al Quaida was formed, and why it is so extremly anti american).
But maybe the WTC was just a bad coincident... lets try more war, maybe this time it pays better of for the USA (gave a real push for the terrorists, they never had so much supports before...)

I think you should think about all the possible consequences instad of blindly following the masses or be biased by skillyfully strewn information/emotions/feelings or foolish anti war setiments.

Believe me I did. And I know that there is no unbiased media. But there is often a fact behind the feelings and emotions. To interprete this fact, is the way to get a relatively objective image what's going on in your country/other countries/the conflict area.
You need to understand all the different opinions of the nations/people in the world to get an idea how a decission of one will effect the other. One cannot determine this exactly, and then you might see a high chance that such a decission will be anti peacekeeping/pro terror or not. I see the war's provocation reaction and the resulting terroist recruiting is higher then the anti terror effect.

(Anti Patriotism is good, but too much of it is dangeorus, I.E. Rebellions, riots, face it, it's usually civilians that hurl rocks and break items first.) People can get unruly sometimes.

And why? Do they get unruly because riots are fun? Doubt that.
The question is the cause. In your case the patriotism is caused by (well I already explained that part). The riots for example in Iraq, can you guess what makes the people there so angry about the US army and thereby against the whole USA? So in this example foolish patriotism leads to anti patriotism/americanism.

That all is not said to prove you wrong or something. It is just meant to give you another point of view. I think you are interested in my point of view, otherwise you wouldn't reply right? ;D

Sorry for the double post, it's a lot easier to reply to the person I wish to reply to.

Also for the person rereplying to you

[StoneColdCrazy]

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

Many of the terrorists, which USA is producing at the moment (well the war is a big reason for new terrorsit recruitments, believe or not) won't loose anything if the attack the USA even more. I just wait for the either stupid or fanatical person to use a mass destruction weapon.

That's the real problem - if these people feel they have nothing else to lose then, well, they can't lose any more. Some of these people have lost so much that they are full of unhappiness, hatred and a desire for vengeance that they will go to any length to achieve.

I mean, look at Israel, it's been occupying the West Bank in violation of international law for decades and the UN still isn't doing anything about it. No wonder some of the people there must feel abandoned.

SCC

[roguenoir]

I think I'll turn myself in to a mental hospital if they start drafting.. after all, I seriously think I shoulda sought treatment years ago...

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by Jinto Lin

I
Yeah, and you can play lottery and even win... well the chances might be low.
The basic matter is, that you have to loose something (your social standard, your relative carefree life, your family). Many of the terrorists, which USA is producing at the moment (well the war is a big reason for new terrorsit recruitments, believe or not) won't loose anything if the attack the USA even more. I just wait for the either stupid or fanatical person to use a mass destruction weapon.

And we have everything to lose. We can't change the past I'm sure you agree with that. With so many muslim terrorist believing they should be the rulers of the world and also believing they have nothing to lose. Why wouldn't you fight to protect everything you have?

And why? Do they get unruly because riots are fun? Doubt that.
The question is the cause. In your case the patriotism is caused by (well I already explained that part). The riots for example in Iraq, can you guess what makes the people there so angry about the US army and thereby against the whole USA? So in this example foolish patriotism leads to anti patriotism/americanism.

I think you're assuming that I'm blindly following what Bush says and because he says going to war and dethroning Iraq is the right thing to do and without thinking I'm willing to believe him. Well that is not true. This isn't a matter of whether I think Bush is right or not, but rather, if needed, would you go and fight for the country you live in? Freedom isn't free. Sure you might feel that you don't want to go to Iraq, but face it this is a small war, if it is WWIII and your country deperately needs you, would you go and fight, or coward away? I'm no veteran, but I would really like to hear someone that has gone to an actual war to place their points on this issue.

That all is not said to prove you wrong or something. It is just meant to give you another point of view. I think you are interested in my point of view, otherwise you wouldn't reply right? ;D

then what are we arguing about? Isn't the whole point of a debate is to prove to bystanders that your point of view is the correct one?

Edit : If you guys are seriously that scared of the draft, well... keep writing to your senators. Won't really matter though, to pay for college, you gotta go sign up for the Draft.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

And we have everything to lose. We can't change the past I'm sure you agree with that. With so many muslim terrorist believing they should be the rulers of the world and also believing they have nothing to lose. Why wouldn't you fight to protect everything you have?

Sure but why do you think, more wars will solve a problem which is based on historical war-situations, in which the USA became involved.

That is like, if you have a ship with a broken hull and the ship now is more and more flooded by water... would you make another hole in the hull with the hope the water will flow out of the ship this time (through this new hole)?

I think you're assuming that I'm blindly following what Bush says and because he says going to war and dethroning Iraq is the right thing to do and without thinking I'm willing to believe him. Well that is not true. This isn't a matter of whether I think Bush is right or not, but rather, if needed, would you go and fight for the country you live in? Freedom isn't free. Sure you might feel that you don't want to go to Iraq, but face it this is a small war, if it is WWIII and your country deperately needs you, would you go and fight, or coward away? I'm no veteran, but I would really like to hear someone that has gone to an actual war to place their points on this issue.

I've been drafted. I did my duty. But I will always act according to my own thinking.

The main problem is, you can always force a war. But you will never be able to force freedom or peace, because forced peace/freedom is a contradiction in itself. But without force, we can't secure freedom and peace. Its a dilemma. When the use of force is appropriate in my thinking, I will support it, ohterwise not. Thats the conclusion I made out of my country's history, don't follow blindly the masses or a leader (whatever). There is no fighting for a country or a way of living in my thinking, but the fighting for humanity, for freedom and peace for all .

then what are we arguing about? Isn't the whole point of a debate is to prove to bystanders that your point of view is the correct one?

Even when I cannot convince you, maybe another person will read your post and my post. If there was only your post, this person might be influenced very much from your post. For that matter I wrote my point of view. Just to show, there is another way of thinking / another idea to solve the problem. The decission which way suits the reader better, is up to the reader... but in this case, the reader will at least have a choice.
There is something beyond this little universe that defines our discussion, there is more than just you and me. I accept your point of view, because it is good to have a another point of view, just in case I'm wrong. Nobody really knows whats right or wrong, we only suggest to know the difference.

Edit : If you guys are seriously that scared of the draft, well... keep writing to your senators. Won't really matter though, to pay for college, you gotta go sign up for the Draft.

[Sanjuronord]

Wow, nearly forgot about this topic.

Originally Posted by aahhsin

And we have everything to lose. We can't change the past I'm sure you agree with that. With so many muslim terrorist believing they should be the rulers of the world and also believing they have nothing to lose. Why wouldn't you fight to protect everything you have?

Iraq hardly threatened anyone. Don't believe muslim terrorists believe they should be rulers of the world but want the United States to remove their forces from their countries (bin laden supposidly started because of U.S. armed forces in Saudi Arabia [which is supposidly where nearly all the 9/11 hijackers originated from yet we have no intention of going there looking for terrorists -- they're our #1 arms customer]). Fighting to protect everything I have is entirely different to fighting for no purpose whatsoever (or maybe you can say forcing democracy on those who don't want it).

Originally Posted by aahhsin

I think you're assuming that I'm blindly following what Bush says and because he says going to war and dethroning Iraq is the right thing to do and without thinking I'm willing to believe him. Well that is not true. This isn't a matter of whether I think Bush is right or not, but rather, if needed, would you go and fight for the country you live in? Freedom isn't free. Sure you might feel that you don't want to go to Iraq, but face it this is a small war, if it is WWIII and your country deperately needs you, would you go and fight, or coward away? I'm no veteran, but I would really like to hear someone that has gone to an actual war to place their points on this issue.

So you believe that we should all be willing to die and kill in a war no matter what the war? That's like saying the Nazi's should be excused for going along with their government. Fascism isn't free too i guess. (apologize for the extreme example but best way to prove a point sometimes). Sorry, but you do have to consider the circumstances involved in a war. Your duty is to the country and not the leader and/or current government figures. You have to ask yourself would you best serve your country in this war or trying to keep your country from going down the road it's going.

[mah_damey]

gosh everyone just stop bashing the u.s... were not evil

[Sanjuronord]

Originally Posted by mah_damey

gosh everyone just stop bashing the u.s... were not evil

Well you've certainly convinced me with your painstaking analysis of everyone's arguments and your rebuttal "were not evil" was dead on. I'm sold!

[S7EV3n]

does permanent residents have to go to the war too??
and I think even though the Draft is happening...
the chance that you will be going is 1/365 no??

please reply to me..if you have answers to my questions thx

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by Sanjuronord

Wow, nearly forgot about this topic.

Iraq hardly threatened anyone. Don't believe muslim terrorists believe they should be rulers of the world but want the United States to remove their forces from their countries (bin laden supposidly started because of U.S. armed forces in Saudi Arabia [which is supposidly where nearly all the 9/11 hijackers originated from yet we have no intention of going there looking for terrorists -- they're our #1 arms customer]). Fighting to protect everything I have is entirely different to fighting for no purpose whatsoever (or maybe you can say forcing democracy on those who don't want it).

Iraq no, Muslim's in general yes. There's a script somewhere in the koran where it states that Islam is the one true religion and they must conquer both Rome and Constanotble, (Istanbul i believe not too sure). Well muslims already have Constantnoble but not Rome. Which they should of had during the 700s. And then crusades and all that stuff started. According to http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=74

"The organization's primary goal is the overthrow of what it sees as the corrupt and heretical governments of Muslim states, and their replacement with the rule of Sharia (Islamic law). Al-Qaida is intensely anti-Western, and views the United States in particular as the prime enemy of Islam. Bin Ladin has issued three "fatwahs" or religious rulings calling upon Muslims to take up arms against the United States. (see Bin Ladin’s Declaration of War). "

The reason for my arguement for fighting for everythign we have, is the point about the actual post. The US draft. Are you willing to get drafted for a war? Because as of now, everyone seems as though they rather run to Canada then fight. Assume a huge war. Sure the likelyhood of someone coming back and becomming a homeless is high, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

So you believe that we should all be willing to die and kill in a war no matter what the war? That's like saying the Nazi's should be excused for going along with their government. Fascism isn't free too i guess. (apologize for the extreme example but best way to prove a point sometimes). Sorry, but you do have to consider the circumstances involved in a war. Your duty is to the country and not the leader and/or current government figures. You have to ask yourself would you best serve your country in this war or trying to keep your country from going down the road it's going.

No, but you shouldn't have such negitive thoughts about your government, everything right now is anti-bush and anti-american.

And yes I do believe that the people in Germany should be excused for going along with the Nazi government. They believed Germany should have been strong and all that stuff. Hey Hitler did go to power the legal way.

And I don't quite understand how this example regards to the US draft.

Who runs the country? Bush. So in other words, your duty is to Bush. The leader of your country. Thus, supporting the leader is doing your duty to your country.

And stay on topic. Would you or would you not support the US draft. Consider minor wars right now, major wars later, an invasion from Canada, etc etc.

One has no choice but to sign up for the draft anyways. Unless you don't plan to go to college. So I guess everyone here is boned. Or just a really rich bitch, or the son of the Senator.

[StoneColdCrazy]

But where do Bush's own duties lie? And where do his personal loyalties lie? To what extent is he willing to go to to achieve his aims? If he's already happy after doing all he's done, I'm sure he won't mind sending a few thousand American soldiers to their deaths too if it furthers his aims and if he can convince them that they're doing the right thing. If we're going to continue the Hitler analogy, we see a man who was at least as self-motivated as he was motivated for the needs of his country, a man who said he'd fight beside them to the end and demanded that his death be reported as one in battle rather than the suicide it actually was... A bit like Saddam saying he'd fight to the last for his country rather than be captured...

SCC

[whatever123]

off-topic

i am really wondering why everybody associates bin-laden with islam, bin-laden never once was a huge islamic figure in any place other than afghanistan, hell he was exiled from saudi arabia more than 10 years ago, and the only reason some people where happy with him afterward is that they saw in him the leader that they never had, in other words someone who is willing to fight for muslim rights (removal of foreign troops and influence, and removal of israel), but most of those realized how wrong they were after he even began attacking muslim countries (moroco, saudia, bahrain..etc)

as per iraq, iraq never had any problems other than sadam (who was a major problem for the people of iraq and surrounding countries) but he never was associated with any terrorist, since he killed anyone who was even preaching anything other than what he wants.

and the irony is that before bin-laden was exiled from saudi arabia he was preaching to the people and the government to stop supporting saddam.

sorry for the off-topic

[Green²]

Originally Posted by S7EV3n

does permanent residents have to go to the war too??
and I think even though the Draft is happening...
the chance that you will be going is 1/365 no??

please reply to me..if you have answers to my questions thx

Should they bring back the draft, my guess is that they would likely and immediately use it for the current fighting over seas,.. mostly to increase man power, for which is in great need even now.

I mean, we all know that Bush is trying to create more jobs... But for the chances of working over seas, say 1/365, is sadly better than me getting laid for this week. Yet I hear those chances do get better after the first month of work under Bush. It's just that,.. I don't prefer being turned into a woman.

[chuckert]

I seriously doubt anyone here should be worrying about a U.S. Draft anytime soon. I'm ex-Navy and have been out for almost 4yrs. I'm currently in the inactive reserves and my obligation to the military ends in August. Just so you all know, I will be re-called back to active duty before anybody here gets drafted to say the least. The military knows how to find me, they have my address, and my phone number. The only thing they have really done so far is send me a few letters asking me politely to join the 'active' reserves (weekend warriors). Other than that, I haven't heard a peep out of them whatsoever. And even if they do call me back, I will go. I'm not gonna complain because I signed a contract stating I will serve my country for this period of time. It's not a matter of whether we the United States are right or wrong, it's a matter of you volunteered to serve your country.

For those that despise our government and military and flat out would refuse to serve your country and would rather flee to Canada or Mexico, that's fine and dandy. I don't look down on you folks who feel that way. Do what you feel in your heart is the right thing, but don't criticize me or anyone else who will fight for their country just because we want to serve our country.

To answer S7EV3n question, yes i do believe as a permanent resident you are still eligible for the U.S. Draft. But like I said, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it or give it much thought. As long as they don't call me back, you're all fine. If they do, I'll give you a heads up.

[Sanjuronord]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

Iraq no, Muslim's in general yes. There's a script somewhere in the koran where it states that Islam is the one true religion and they must conquer both Rome and Constanotble, (Istanbul i believe not too sure). Well muslims already have Constantnoble but not Rome. Which they should of had during the 700s. And then crusades and all that stuff started. According to http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=74

Religious texts say alot of funny things. The bible for example has passages that condone stoning to death disobediant children and anyone working on the sabbath, slavery, and even selling your own daughter into slavery. Yet the average christian believes none of that and neither does the average muslim believe in conquering the world. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Originally Posted by aahhsin

The reason for my arguement for fighting for everythign we have, is the point about the actual post. The US draft. Are you willing to get drafted for a war? Because as of now, everyone seems as though they rather run to Canada then fight. Assume a huge war. Sure the likelyhood of someone coming back and becomming a homeless is high, but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

I thought the point of this topic was this draft and not drafts in general. I'm already signed up for the draft 4 years ago so yes I am willing, but I'm not willing to die for Bush and his personal agendas.

Originally Posted by aahhsin

No, but you shouldn't have such negitive thoughts about your government, everything right now is anti-bush and anti-american.

Actually it's my right to have those beliefs, which I feel aren't anti-american. Most definetly anti-bush though. The guy has lied repeatedly about the war in Iraq and has done little of any real merit since 9/11.

Originally Posted by aahhsin

Hey Hitler did go to power the legal way.

That's if you don't count the failed Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 where he and another guy tried to take over the country by force. It failed and he was placed in prison for a few monthes, wrote his little book. Later he ran for president and lost, then he went on to become chancelor and succeeded to president 2 years later when the president died. After being in office a few monthes he took steps to become a dictator. I believe he may have also been involved in a few murders to keep anyone from objecting to his seizure of power but don't know about all that.

Originally Posted by aahhsin

And I don't quite understand how this example regards to the US draft.

Their actions took their country in a very bad direction for their country and caused the unneccasary death of over 50 million people all because a few countries couldn't keep their egos in check. The comment was meant to show that the conditions of a war should be considered before any form of service (draft or volunteer).

Originally Posted by aahhsin

Who runs the country? Bush. So in other words, your duty is to Bush. The leader of your country. Thus, supporting the leader is doing your duty to your country.

Show me that in the constitution sounds more like a dictatorship. A better question is for whose good does he run the country? Him and his oil buddies or his fellow citizens?

Originally Posted by aahhsin

And stay on topic. Would you or would you not support the US draft. Consider minor wars right now, major wars later, an invasion from Canada, etc etc.

Once again think I am on topic, I'm talking only about this draft and not drafts in general.

Btw, like your new avatar.

[ubb]

I was laughing my ass off when richman said he doesn't have to go to war after telling others how anyone over 17 should be proud because they get drafted.

[hobobaggins]

Originally Posted by ubb

I was laughing my ass off when richman said he doesn't have to go to war after telling others how anyone over 17 should be proud because they get drafted.

people do that all the time. dont worry

I'm not willing to die for Bush and his personal agendas.

so you would be perfectly willing to die for say... clinton or regan?

bush probably knows alot of information we dont, so what may seems to be his personal agendas could be his knowledge of other information.

not that i am taking bush's side, i am taking the side of the president in general

[Sun_Tze]

Well, after reading the history lessons about the 1st world war, i have to say something about the USA that still amazes me.

Remember the Spanish Civil War back in 1930? There was a group of american soldiers who wanted to fight there, but the army didn't wanted to participate on a war that wasn't related to them.

Now, how did the Lincoln Brigade (As it was known) went to Spain? They were helped by the Communist Partie. They fought against Franco's army (Fascists) together with International Brigades from several countries and the Republicans.

Now, already 50 years have passed since that war. All of the members of VALB received medals from the Spanish goverment. And what happens in the USA? They are considered communists, when some of them are the most patriot guys on earth.
Nice going for a democracy that denies heroes that fought against Facism.

Edit: I reccomend those that "like" President Bush to play this small game... no skiping the parts please..... http://www.emogame.com/bushgame.html

[Baba]

I haven't finished playing, but it's a good game, you've found us there, lot's of fun and education .

Edit: But a bit too much propaganda for my taste, but what the heck, that's the whole point....

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by Baba

I haven't finished playing, but it's a good game, you've found us there, lot's of fun and education .

Edit: But a bit too much propaganda for my taste, but what the heck, that's the whole point....

This game is really ehh.... They seem to be really biased toward everything bush has done. Guess that's the entire point though. Something hit me though, in the end Kerry says he's going to do all these things, but how? he could very well bring us deeper into recession. We don't know yet.

Also, to me it seems like that everyone wouldn't mind if Clinton became president again. That game really tried to highlight every Good that clinton done.