Japanese Culture

[RRW]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

OTOH, though not for work, Japanese (or perhaps Asian in general, as I live in SEA) students have an extraordinary burden and expectations in their studies. We often hear a Westerner being shocked at how packed the Asian curriculum is (if I remember right, Japan and India have very high rates of student suicides). Of course, I can't compare for sure since I don't live in western countries so what I went through here just felt normal to me.

Originally Posted by aohige

I mean like we had regular school till 3~3:30PM. Then after going home, around 5~6PM we head to juku school (a school after school) and don't come home until 10PM.
Effectively going to school twice a day on the days we had Juku school.

I went to Juku school 3 times a week, I think that was pretty normal.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

It is still content. When I was in secondary I constantly had lessons until 3pm; half of the time after 1pm is struggling to stay awake because whatever they are teaching didn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Hmmm..... Try classes until 4 pm, soccer until 6 pm, and all-night group study until 4 am. Sleep until 7 am, and go to school by 8 am.


My life as a middle schooler in Korea.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Your secondary until 3...mine until 10...coz they deemed night classes necessary to make us ace O-Levels...

Not to mention all the tuition on other days until 10+

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Classes starts at 7 am, ends at 4 pm, go to internet shop 'til 5 pm, watch anime 'til at 8 pm, sleep at 9 pm, wake up at 6 pm, at school by 6:45 am then study for 15 mins!!!!

Meanwhile I only study 4-6 Hour in school at max yet still become a top student.

the difference between Asian and international school surely different.

thought i done lot of after school activity like robotic and student council/perfect

[aohige]

Originally Posted by RRW

Meanwhile I only study 4-6 Hour in school at max yet still become a top student.

the difference between Asian and international school surely different.

thought i done lot of after school activity like robotic and student council/perfect

Not sure what you're implying, but in general, an "average" kid coming from one of these asian countries usually instantly ranks in the top highest of the schools in US if transferred.

I know because I was one. I was at best an average student in Japan. I came to US and enrolled in highschool here, and was instantly among the highest achieving student in math and science. I wasn't smart. The education level in the school was a complete joke.

[willx]

^ Et al

I think you guys are all misconstruing something. The educational training in elementary, (middle) and highschool are much harsher and stricter in Asian countries. There is also more of an emphasis on static learning and often times rote memorization. aohige even said himself, he wasn't "smart" (not saying I agree, I'm just saying he said it) but that he had already learned more advanced things than his contemporaries had learned.

That said, I agree that North American schools (I heard European is even easier) are easy as hell, but the focus is teaching everyone not weeding out the best and brightest necessarily.. The best and brightest tend to rise to the top themselves.. And those that simply perform academically well, most of them tend to live pretty mediocre lives (and my life isn't anything special either! And I still enjoy their company!). Also, don't forget, basically every school (even public school) has "gifted" streams for the super intelligent, and skipping grades is always an option. I had a 17 year old girl in my undergraduate business school classes.

Having traveled, worked, and met executives and the like, I'm generally disappointed at the level of intellect that I see among the elite.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by aohige

Not sure what you're implying, but in general, an "average" kid coming from one of these asian countries usually instantly ranks in the top highest of the schools in US if transferred.

I know because I was one. I was at best an average student in Japan. I came to US and enrolled in highschool here, and was instantly among the highest achieving student in math and science. I wasn't smart. The education level in the school was a complete joke.

OTOH...When it comes to their unis...

My friend, who was one of the better students here is now in a US uni.

He's suffering

[RRW]

Originally Posted by aohige

Not sure what you're implying, but in general, an "average" kid coming from one of these asian countries usually instantly ranks in the top highest of the schools in US if transferred.

I know because I was one. I was at best an average student in Japan. I came to US and enrolled in highschool here, and was instantly among the highest achieving student in math and science. I wasn't smart. The education level in the school was a complete joke.

I had similar situation with you. when I done a test in international school. my teacher surprised I get 100% and I quickly send to top class

thought I prefer western/international education. instead having "memorization" only lesson. We have variety of leaning style like making a poster, a production, and some group project.

The teacher also kinder and have more personality. I even had "Chuni" teacher here

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

OTOH...When it comes to their unis...

My friend, who was one of the better students here is now in a US uni.

He's suffering

Not surprising. the difference of education level between Highschool and University is like night a day.

Also because of asian is used to "memorization" style leaning. they will struggle when doing their Uni coursework because they not used to it

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

OTOH...When it comes to their unis...

My friend, who was one of the better students here is now in a US uni.

He's suffering

Well, that's the strength of the American education system.
Instead of making its average citizens smarter, it focuses on the "good" seeds of the population and strengthen it more.
Naturally, this means the higher education systems are very advanced.

It's one of the reason the stereotype of "In America we have geniuses and dumbasses. Nothing in between." comes from.

Originally Posted by willx

That said, I agree that North American schools (I heard European is even easier) are easy as hell, but the focus is teaching everyone not weeding out the best and brightest necessarily.. The best and brightest tend to rise to the top themselves.. And those that simply perform academically well, most of them tend to live pretty mediocre lives (and my life isn't anything special either! And I still enjoy their company!). Also, don't forget, basically every school (even public school) has "gifted" streams for the super intelligent, and skipping grades is always an option. I had a 17 year old girl in my undergraduate business school classes.

I disagree with the bolded.
The American education system is "lower the bar to the lower end, so everyone can feel they accomplished school.. even if that means lowering the average. But focus on the brightest, and polish them to be the leaders."
In comparison, Japanese (and many other Asian nation) focus on bringing that "average" up, and uniforming the standard of knowledge of all students. To do this, they focus on raising the low achievers, instead of bring the bar down.

The advantage of the former method is higher number of extremely talented geniuses, while the advantage of latter is overall balance of educated citizens.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well, that's the strength of the American education system.
Instead of making its average citizens smarter, it focuses on the "good" seeds of the population and strengthen it more.
Naturally, this means the higher education systems are very advanced.

It's one of the reason the stereotype of "In America we have geniuses and dumbasses. Nothing in between." comes from.

IMO Asian unis would do well to emulate this...

Not in ridiculously high entry bars since Asia excels in this anyway, but in the process of tertiary education.

Not sure how that applies to Japan's unis though since they are supposed to be the cream of this side of the globe

[RRW]

Luckily mine is UK based which pretty much in between

[willx]

Originally Posted by aohige

I disagree with the bolded.
The American education system is "lower the bar to the lower end, so everyone can feel they accomplished school.. even if that means lowering the average. But focus on the brightest, and polish them to be the leaders."
In comparison, Japanese (and many other Asian nation) focus on bringing that "average" up, and uniforming the standard of knowledge of all students. To do this, they focus on raising the low achievers, instead of bring the bar down.

The advantage of the former method is higher number of extremely talented geniuses, while the advantage of latter is overall balance of educated citizens.

Well, I went to a public highschool here in Canada. The testing was incredibly easy. The coursework was also very light. That said, if you actually went to class and paid attention, you could learn a lot. The "content" was fine but there was no strict test to make sure you retained the content..

If I recall (aside from skipping 80% of my classes in most of my highschool "career") my favourite courses when I did go to school were Psychology, History, Comparative Civilizations, TPE (Transportation, Power & Engineering) and Physics. The reason I mention this is the average "Asian student" I've met perform better academically -- but only because they learn more advanced topics sooner (especially Math & Physics) -- most Asian highschool graduates I find are generally not anymore knowledgeable in general than their Canadian contemporaries. I don't live in the U.S. so I can't speak about that, albeit some of my good friends go to the U.S. Universities.

This reminds me of a debate I was having with my fiance: "Do you tell children at a young age that they can do anything? Or do you try to ground them and get them to be more realistic?" -- I believe a mix, primarily the latter, but with an emphasis that "most things" are much easier than they may appear.

[ArchmageXin]

The advantage of the former method is higher number of extremely talented geniuses, while the advantage of latter is overall balance of educated citizens.

Actually, I think it is because the American economic system attract high performers. My parents are excellent engineers that came to the U.S for a higher lifestyle, so are thousands/millions of other.

Think of this, how many American "Pioneers of Industry" are actually born and bred here?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Think of this, how many American "Pioneers of Industry" are actually born and bred here?

Quite a few including Larry Page, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

IMO Asian unis would do well to emulate this...

It's really hard to say. Both models have much pros and cons.
The asian method, IMO, produces a much more "solid" society of capable citizens, but the American university produce technology advancing elites. Both are necessary component of human advancement.

[willx]

Originally Posted by ArchmageXin

Actually, I think it is because the American economic system attract high performers. My parents are excellent engineers that came to the U.S for a higher lifestyle, so are thousands/millions of other.

Think of this, how many American "Pioneers of Industry" are actually born and bred here?

Aside from Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Elison .. The Koch Brothers .. Michael Bloomberg .. [flipping through Forbes list] *cough*

[RRW]

*insert billionaireisuniversitydropout joke here*

[SeijiSensei]

Most of the scientists and engineers who powered the technological boom in America during the Fifties and Sixties were born in this country. There were some foreigners mixed in, but they often came from Europe, not Asia. Here's a good introduction to those nice young men in white shirts and narrow ties that transformed the world: http://video.pbs.org/video/2332168287.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by aohige

Well, that's the strength of the American education system.
Instead of making its average citizens smarter, it focuses on the "good" seeds of the population and strengthen it more.
Naturally, this means the higher education systems are very advanced.

It's one of the reason the stereotype of "In America we have geniuses and dumbasses. Nothing in between." comes from.

I think there is truth in this. All that I've heard indicates that Old World schooling systems force you to do tons of work, i.e. mastery by sheer volume. In America it's more about encouraging the student's motivation, which is really awesome for some students in some subjects, but terrible for the majority. I think that the main area where this shows itself is in math. Math is one of those things that everyone can master, but in America they only really make you learn addition through division, then they let you use calculators. In my experience they did teach algebra and higher theories, but they simply remained that - theories. There was a token amount of homework, very little drilling, and a few tests. Those students who get it understand it and are happy. Those who don't are not really pushed to learn it.
Compared to descriptions I've heard about the Chinese system, for instance, we Americans barely scratch the surface. In China they never use calculators. Every theoretical concept they learn gets backed up by literally volumes of homework. All formulas get memorized and recited* You have to be able to fully support your answers on a test with work. If you don't understand the material, you will be made to understand it through various pressures. Sounds tough but it does ensure that most everyone will learn math.

*=one of the reasons why I think that "rote memorization", which is derided in the west, is in fact the most important learning method.

[frivolity]

What I've heard from my friends though is that the grade inflation is starting to creep into the US Undergraduate programs as well, with too many people scoring A's, such that the GPA tends to be overly inflated. The situation changes at the postgraduate level, where US universities still remain the apex of innovation, with extremely high funding and more rigorous programs. In contrast, Australian postgraduate education is nothing more than a cashcow, with programs that simply rehash the undergraduate syllabi.

[Haak]

I was just wondering how accurate this article was on the way history is taught in Japan:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

[willx]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Every theoretical concept they learn gets backed up by literally volumes of homework. All formulas get memorized and recited* You have to be able to fully support your answers on a test with work. If you don't understand the material, you will be made to understand it through various pressures. Sounds tough but it does ensure that most everyone will learn math.

*=one of the reasons why I think that "rote memorization", which is derided in the west, is in fact the most important learning method.

I hate "rote memorization" and think it's absolutely useless. I remember a story one of my old professors told me about a friend that they had that made it through medical school because they had a near flawless memory and could remember a ridiculous amount of medical jargon .. but lacked any sort of critical analysis ability. They basically couldn't do their job. I think people need to be taught how to think. Like Philo 100-level courses: Critical Thinking and Logic & Reasoning should be mandatory at the highschool level.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by willx

I hate "rote memorization" and think it's absolutely useless. I remember a story one of my old professors told me about a friend that they had that made it through medical school because they had a near flawless memory and could remember a ridiculous amount of medical jargon .. but lacked any sort of critical analysis ability. They basically couldn't do their job.

Always bio-science eh?

The number of people in my bio-science course who are like this....Astounding

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by willx

I hate "rote memorization" and think it's absolutely useless. I remember a story one of my old professors told me about a friend that they had that made it through medical school because they had a near flawless memory and could remember a ridiculous amount of medical jargon .. but lacked any sort of critical analysis ability. They basically couldn't do their job. I think people need to be taught how to think. Like Philo 100-level courses: Critical Thinking and Logic & Reasoning should be mandatory at the highschool level.

The governments wouldn't allow it - how are you going to control a machine whose mode isn't set to read-only?

I don't hate rote memorisation because it has its uses and can be fun (I once challenged a friend to memorising pi - he hit 100 digits and I got stuck at 40), but I am quite disgusted that these people are those who often get scholarships or are the top of the class; yet they don't seem to care much about the beauty of the subjects they study and the utility of it. They are the ones destroying our world of science without the propensity to explore deeper.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Always bio-science eh?

The number of people in my bio-science course who are like this....Astounding

Engineering courses are always filled with idiots like them; and they blame the inability to work together when projects fall through.

The base of a good project is always a good idea, without the guts and the creativity, what use is that knowledge? I would rather someone at our polytechnics create a new strain of Ebola virus that reanimates corpses than to hand up lazily recreated projects from the internet (though resource can be quite an issue - ever thought of stealing from the school labs?).