(L) Fate/Stay Night - Unlimited Blade Works Movie

[frenze12]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Over analyzing stories like Fate/Stay Night just ruins the enjoyment of it. Most stories of its nature contain plot holes or logical inconsistencies. Just sit back and enjoy the ride of a world that is not like our own.

Totally agree with you. If stories wouldn't have plot holes or incosistencies of those kind they would become preditable and possible boring to no end . It is those unpreditable events that make up a good story.

[frenze12]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Spoiler for UBW:

He conviently learned everything from Archer via something like a time-paradox and every memory of Archer flowned into him. Really convient powerup doesn't it? But at least it was explained, but THEN Shirou gets up and manages to outspeed Archer(A Servant who's capable swinging 10 strikes a second!). And even before Shirou had encountered Archer in the caster arc his endurance was simply ridiculous. I guess it's thanks to his Reallity Marble. But against Gilgamesh dozens of those happened. Like he's surviving EA(No matter how, I guess Saber surviving EA after she countered most of it is only thanks to that she's a Servant and she heals extremely fast...and even then it's probably more thanks to Gilgamesh's "goodwill"). They dumbed down Gilgamesh to make Shirou win in short. And still even with that it's all thanks to Archer's deus-ex machina and again Shirou's luck.

Spoiler for spoiler HF:

I think suddenly getting a spiritual arm attached to you (with the right timing: lost an arm, archer dying, more strenght is needed to defeath the enemy ASAP) is way more convient compared to the time-paradox powerup in UBW. Probably the main reason why people are oké with this is because it comes with a deadly prize...

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by frenze12

Spoiler for spoiler HF:

I think suddenly getting a spiritual arm attached to you (with the right timing: lost an arm, archer dying, more strenght is needed to defeath the enemy ASAP) is way more convient compared to the time-paradox powerup in UBW. Probably the main reason why people are oké with this is because it comes with a deadly prize...

Totally right. But that's why it isn't a mindless powerup or either luck for him. Actually that thing in HF caused his end. But suddenly getting a powerup without any kind of setbacks is way more luck.
And now if I thik about it

Spoiler for HF:

It wasn't as much luck. The only luck was him surviving the explosion. Archer's decision was a part of his character development and it's been stated many times that Kirei's spiritual healing technique is really excellent. So attaching a spiritual arm is way more fitting into the verse than the time-paradox-memory-share-something. HF had many outrangeus things, but they somehow fitted into the whole world.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Totally right. But that's why it isn't a mindless powerup or either luck for him. Actually that thing in HF caused his end. But suddenly getting a powerup without any kind of setbacks is way more luck.
And now if I thik about it

Spoiler for HF:

It wasn't as much luck. The only luck was him surviving the explosion. Archer's decision was a part of his character development and it's been stated many times that Kirei's spiritual healing technique is really excellent. So attaching a spiritual arm is way more fitting into the verse than the time-paradox-memory-share-something. HF had many outrangeus things, but they somehow fitted into the whole world.

I don't understand where you are getting this time-paradox bs from.... There was only one point ever that he saw a glimpse of Archer's past, and that was while he was fighting him.

All he did was mimic Archer's moves and he became a slightly better fighter. He learned how to make use of his reality marble because Archer already showed him it...

He never defeated Archer... Archer (At a small fraction of his original strength) let himself be defeated because he was awed by Shirou.

The only thing that I felt was really a plot hole in UBW for Shirou was when Shirou used Rho Aius with out ever seeing it.

[willyvereb]

Spoiler for UBW:

But it's been corrected later that not him, but Archer projected it.
And there was a scene from Saber's perspective where Shirou deflects the attacks somehow easily against Archer(the last minutes before he defeats Archer). It's like if we saw a Sephiroth vs Cloud fight. But actually it doesn't make sense even a little bit in FSN.
And it wasn't simple a glimpse...he slowly turned better every second he fought with him. But still there's a physical barrier between Servant and human being. In the end Shirou learned UBW because of the memory flow.

[orangejuicetang]

No, the only real plothole was Archer having so much mana leftover after being defeated by Shirou and then skewered by Gilgamesh. If your talking about him suddenly poweruping up his technique,

All he did was mimic Archer's moves and he became a slightly better fighter. He learned how to make use of his reality marble because Archer already showed him it...

is pretty much exactly what happened. Saber even noted it herself in the training dojo. It's not that Shirou got stronger or faster, it's just that he know has a definite style, whereas before he just randomly tried to hit her. And Shirou eventually noted himself that the reason his growth with Archer's style was so fast was because Archer's style was almost custom fit for him, which, if you think about it, it is. Apparently the Rho Aius thing was retconned away by Nasu in an interview saying that it was actually Archer projecting it. Also, it seems that that might have been the same way Shirou survived the low-power Ea blast, it seems like Archer might have projected another Rho Aius right there too to reduce the impact.


*edit

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Spoiler for UBW:

But it's been corrected later that not him, but Archer projected it.
And there was a scene from Saber's perspective where Shirou deflects the attacks somehow easily against Archer(the last minutes before he defeats Archer). It's like if we saw a Sephiroth vs Cloud fight. But actually it doesn't make sense even a little bit in FSN.
And it wasn't simple a glimpse...he slowly turned better every second he fought with him. But still there's a physical barrier between Servant and human being. In the end Shirou learned UBW because of the memory flow.

Spoiler for ubw:

No, he wasn't turning into a better fighter as he continued to fight Archer. He was turning into a worse fighter. His techniques lost focus and simply became random attacks fueled by pure instinct. Archer could have won at almost any point during the fight, but he was subconsciously impressed by Shirou's determination to protect his ideal, and wanted to see how far Shirou was willing to go to protect them. He even thinks to himself, "I can win right now. All I need to do is retreat a bit, and Shirou will self-destruct. ...But I can't do that. I don't know why, but it feels like if that happens, something precious will be lost forever" paraphrase. It basically turned into a kind of test. Archer watches Shirou's last attack come at him, and even though it was something he could have easily dodged, he let's it hit, because he found his answer or something and no longer needed to kill Shirou.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

No, the only real plothole was Archer having so much mana leftover after being defeated by Shirou and then skewered by Gilgamesh. If your talking about him suddenly poweruping up his technique, is pretty much exactly what happened. Saber even noted it herself in the training dojo. It's not that Shirou got stronger or faster, it's just that he know has a definite style, whereas before he just randomly tried to hit her. And Shirou eventually noted himself that the reason his growth with Archer's style was so fast was because Archer's style was almost custom fit for him, which, if you think about it, it is. Apparently the Rho Aius thing was retconned away by Nasu in an interview saying that it was actually Archer projecting it.

Oh yeah... That is true as well. Archer somehow retained the mana to do all that... That's another one... But there are even worst things in the other routes.

I never knew that Archer actually projected the shield... But it seemed like Shirou himself did it. WTH. Well whatever, good to know.

[orangejuicetang]

Getting this slightly back on topic, what scenes do you think they'll cut to fit it in the timeframe that you really don't want them to cut? I really hope they don't cut

Spoiler for ubw:

Illya's past and Archer's memories from the dream. And plus the emotional Beserker scene where he breaks Enkidu and defies reality to keep his body in reality

*Irony-Realizing that the thing you hope don't get cut that you wrote was a spoiler, so you change it to the spoiler using the "cut" function.

[willyvereb]

Slight correction...the chain's name is Enkidu.

[orangejuicetang]

Wow, I can't believe I wrote Ea instead of Enkidu. I must have been tired.

[bergsdal]

some news ?

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

No, the only real plothole was Archer having so much mana leftover after being defeated by Shirou and then skewered by Gilgamesh.

That is a major plothole, but there is one even bigger. After Caster stabs Saber, Shiro loses his command seals. Same with Rin when Archer is stabbed. Seeing how it completely destroys the command seals, it is the same as if you used them all. HOW did Rin get hers back? Seeing as how the Rule Breaker destroyed hers, the Grail COULDN'T give her new ones, as hers had already been expended.

THAT is a bigger plot hole which I have yet to see someone fill.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Flinch

That is a major plothole, but there is one even bigger. After Caster stabs Saber, Shiro loses his command seals. Same with Rin when Archer is stabbed. Seeing how it completely destroys the command seals, it is the same as if you used them all. HOW did Rin get hers back? Seeing as how the Rule Breaker destroyed hers, the Grail COULDN'T give her new ones, as hers had already been expended.

THAT is a bigger plot hole which I have yet to see someone fill.

Who knows? Actually, when Caster stabbed Saber, Shirou already used up all his command spells anyway. Yet when Caster forcefully contracted Saber, she gained three new command spells. But, being stabbed with Rule Breaker doesn't mean command spells exploding. Although I have no idea how she replenished her command spells. Maybe she gained Caster's leftover command spells?

I also saw a person guess that Archer was able to stay in the world due to a boost from Alaya due to Gilgamesh activating something that could threaten humanity. Your thoughts? There are quite a few problems with this theory though.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Who knows? Actually, when Caster stabbed Saber, Shirou already used up all his command spells anyway. Yet when Caster forcefully contracted Saber, she gained three new command spells. But, being stabbed with Rule Breaker doesn't mean command spells exploding. Although I have no idea how she replenished her command spells. Maybe she gained Caster's leftover command spells?

I also saw a person guess that Archer was able to stay in the world due to a boost from Alaya due to Gilgamesh activating something that could threaten humanity. Your thoughts? There are quite a few problems with this theory though.

... All rule breaker I thought was understood to do was break the contract. Taking the very command spells of the masters I feel is a poor interpretation.

As for Archer staying in the world... We can think of the hero's mana as something like radioactive decay! So at the time of Shiro's fight he was at 1/10 his mana, and the next day he was at 1/100 of his mana, but that was somehow enough to cast the remaining spells he had?

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

... All rule breaker I thought was understood to do was break the contract. Taking the very command spells of the masters I feel is a poor interpretation.

Maybe I worded it improperly. The way I see it, it goes like this. Shirou uses up his three command spells "Don't attack Archer, Come to the school, and Stop your charge". So he no longer has any command spells. Caster Rule Breaks Saber, and then forms a contract with her by force. Since Caster summoned Assassin, the grail gave her three command spells, and she uses on of those command spells to command Saber. So now Caster has two command spells left. Currently, Rin only has one command spell left, since she used two already "Listen to what I say, Don't attack Shirou while we are still cooperating". Now fast forward a bit. Archer kills Caster, and then imprisons Rin. If Rin is near where Caster got impaled, she got conceivably take Caster's remaining two command spells, thus bringing her total back up to three.

As for Archer, the real issue is how he gets his mana. We know he can stay in the world for two days without an anchor, but we don't know how he manages to replenish his mana supply. Maybe he does some magic ritual or something. Afterall, he does have a C rank in magic, which states that he has an "orthodox understanding of magic". I don't really know. Just throwing out some theories here.

[rastilin]

As for Archer, the real issue is how he gets his mana. We know he can stay in the world for two days without an anchor, but we don't know how he manages to replenish his mana supply. Maybe he does some magic ritual or something. Afterall, he does have a C rank in magic, which states that he has an "orthodox understanding of magic". I don't really know. Just throwing out some theories here.

Saber says that servants will naturally regain mana; presumably only if they already have some means of staying in the world.

We also know that beings with a magic circuit can harvest mana continually.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

If Rin is near where Caster got impaled, she got conceivably take Caster's remaining two command spells, thus bringing her total back up to three.

There are 3 ways to get command seals from someone: cut off their arm and take them by force; have them willingly relinquish them; book of forced command. Caster did none of these, so Rin couldn't have gotten any seals from her.

When Rin lost her servant, she lost her command seals as well. Command Seals are given to masters only when there is a servant available for them to control, since there were none left, Rin couldn't have gotten her one back. Besides, I don't think having your servant outright betray you makes you a good master... doubt the grail would have faith in you at that point. It would likely select another magi to be a master, even though Rin was from one of the founding families.

[orangejuicetang]

That's the only three methods that we have been shown. There is mentioned of another way of magically implanting somebody else's command spells, but doing so would tear off the nerves in the arm. Since Caster is dead, I see no reason why anybody would hesitate to use this method. Not like she'll be needing those nerves anyway.

Masters don't lose their Command Seals when they lose their servants? Where did you get that idea? The entire reason that you should kill masters even though their servants might be defeated is because they can form a contract with another defeated Servant. You can't form a contract with a Servant without a command seal. Either that, or you automatically get new command seals when you contract a servant. Without the command seals, there is no contract or connection between Servant and Master.

[Flinch]

When Hassan-i Sabbah was run down by Iskander's Reality Marble, Kotomine lost his command seals as well. Even though he has lost his rights as a master for losing his servant, he still fights.

[rastilin]

When Hassan-i Sabbah was run down by Iskander's Reality Marble, Kotomine lost his command seals as well. Even though he has lost his rights as a master for losing his servant, he still fights.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

Keep reading, he gets new command seals from the grail. Gilgamesh considers this a sign that there is a secret inside his heart that the grail wants him to pursue; and that there is more to him than he reveals to others.