2006-12-21, 04:03 | Link #301 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Besides, unless we know the circumstances for Kira to don a ZAFT uniform, we won't really know what effect Lacus is trying to achieve with his presence. For example, his role may be just to act as a lure to flush out the Zala and Durandal extremists.
__________________
|
|||||||||
2006-12-21, 04:39 | Link #302 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 40
|
Kira may have been a bad general, but he was fine where he was when the Orb men didn't need to ask questions at all before following him compared to being a noname in ZAFT having to deal with all the old-timers in Lacus' cabinet who might not recognize his position.
Quote:
What I meant is that having Kira getting that position just like that in front of other PLANTs' Patriots might put Lacus in a very uncomfortable political situation right from the start. |
|
2006-12-21, 07:52 | Link #303 | |||||||||||||||
Tabloid Journalist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Where the Sidewalk Ends
Age: 38
|
Quote:
If you look at Athrun's uniform from the new SE selections, it is the same as the one Kira wore at the end of Destiny. That of course doesn't mean that he's taken Kira's position, just like Kira wearing a ZAFT uniform doesn't mean he's a bonafide ZAFTie. But since our little debate is based on images in the first place, and their implications, let's just work with what we have. Cagalli understands Athrun? Examples please? After all, I thought there were some pretty big misunderstandings between them during the second war. So what if the Orb military operates on nepotism? That doesn't mean Cagalli should ignore his past history and his lack of loyalty. So what if he semi-rectified it after his second defection, it still doesn't erase his history. Just like when Kira joins ZAFT, it doesn't erase his history of conflict with them, no matter how much Lacus approves of him. Quote:
Quote:
Besides, Kira and co have a history of interfering in other people's battles to promote peace. Yes, sometimes it failed, but when it really counted, such as preventing the deaths of millions of people, it magically worked. Hmm...talk about precedents. Quote:
Quote:
So you admit that the military can help with domestic issues? Well, that was my point as well, good we're agreed: Kira can possibly be deployed to stop a fringe group, he has to be prepared for that possibility when he joins ZAFT, because nothing is guaranteed. As a soldier, he has to constantly be prepared to fight because nothing is guaranteed. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What would survival mean then? It's very difficult to distinguish the national interest from survival, because for a lot of politicians those two are the same. Do you mean survival as in a state is being threatened by an external force? But that's not smart politics if you're a state, there are so many other ways to fail. States aren't benevolent, when they fight for survival, they don't passively wait for an emergency situation, they actively make sure their states don't ever get into that situation in the first place. It’s not pretty, and its extremely selfish, but this is the practical way states work. Quote:
In fact, most of the mass killing that goes on today occurs in-between state boundaries: Civil war, ethnic cleansing, genocide...etc. And in the CE universe, it doesn't need to be Natural versus Coordinator, there are many other reasons for human beings to fight. When there are situations so extreme, states may choose to intervene to stop killing because of a collective understanding of universal human rights. Nation-states may act selfishly, but they also at the same time, can act in a humanitarian manner, because it's expected and it provides political capital on the world stage. Anyway, I can go through the pros and cons of humanitarian intervention, and discuss its complexity, throw in a few tests...but that's not what I was trying to explain. I'm just trying to simply say that militaries don't solely need to fight for the survival of the state, but depending on the politics of the nations, there are other reasons to use the military as well. Of course its an extreme situation, but why should it be impossible? I mean look at the U.S., it has fought wars for both national interest and humanitarian interest. It's committed human right violations in other states yet it tries to spread the concept of universal human rights. Humanitarian intervention is becoming more and more an accepted norm, meaning despite the blatant failures (Somalia, Yugoslavia, Iraq..) it's not inherently a bad move, its just the way countries have attempted humanitarian intervention, that is the problem. States, international lawyers, IR scholars, policymakers, have been developing criteria for using this, meaning its not going to go away any time soon and is getting more accepted. Again, it was just an example of a possible way militaries can be used to fight, but not something we would consider traditional war. In fact, during times of peace, states are more likely to use their military for humanitarian interest than any other time. Though, I guess you could make the claim that Lacus was practicing something close to humanitarian intervention when her faction was trying to defeat both ZAFT and EA. Using military force to stop genocide, intervening in a war as a third party to stop killing. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And if you really think about it, it wasn't that ZAFT wasn't good for him, it was more like the leadership in ZAFT wasn't good for him. Otherwise you can make the same argument that ZAFT isn't good for Shinn, because that kid was manipulated a lot more than Athrun was. But shouldn't it be different with new leadership, Lacus, and loads of reform coming his way? So maybe he would have a place to belong in this ZAFT. But hey, as you said, it's his choice not to return, can't argue with that, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Quote:
Now, if the ZAFT military doesn't run on loyalty to the nation, what does it run on? What provides the motivation for these people to fight? From a strategic standpoint, as a politician, you have to have your military be a cohesive group ready to sacrifice their lives. It's ruthless, but necessary, and for that you need them to be nationalistic and loyal. They don't need a Kira who will decide that he can't fight for a ZAFT that invades another country for resources because according to his standards, that doesn't constitute survival. They need someone who believes in their nation. Quote:
Look, I’m not saying the PLANTs are some trigger-happy nation, I’m saying that in order to protect their interests, and of course this means their people, states have to take into account a whole lot of things. States can’t always act in a benevolent manner to other states, sometimes they have to consider what’s important to their national interest. And a smart state wouldn’t be trigger-happy, because nobody wants to deploy their military, and they would surely exhaust all possible diplomatic resources. However, there are cases when the military needs to be used, and soldiers should always be expected to fight when called upon. So all I’m saying is that Kira has to understand this as a soldier he should be ready to fight for ZAFT at anytime, personal convictions aside. |
|||||||||||||||
2006-12-21, 16:37 | Link #304 |
Core Newtype
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Yoshino, Nara prefecture, Japan
Age: 37
|
Kira Yamato... anagramize that!
Hmmm... Kira as a whitecoat, huh? I understand completely... that infallability of his would serve cryptic villainy so much better than it would heroism... Or maybe he'll be a good whitecoat with a cryptic demeanor... Either way, time for him to bleach his hair and don that notorious white demi-mask... I can see it now
< Athrun walks in on Kira who is facing the other direction > Athrun: Hey Kira, how's it going? Kira: fu fu fu... hm hm hm hm ha ha... Athrun: Uh... Kira, are you... Um < Kira turns toward Athrun with his white coat on, but is currently fashioning a Creuset-esque demi-mask > Kira: Hey... what d'ya think of this? Athrun: Ummm... I... what are you doing? Kira: I've figured that since Rau le Creuset's death, this series has been lacking the vital character role of the cold, cryptic, calculating, conniving, callous villain... I figure than since I have the invaluable technique of ultimate infallibility, I can use it to revise the ways of humanity; I can be Rau 2.0 Athrun: Kira, this is entirely against everything you stand for, and of the people I know who shows such tendencies, you are not among them... You can wear the white coat, even the mask if you want, just do like you always do and be the good guy! Kira: but I've even been practicing my evil laugh, see? *ahem* hee hee hee hee hee... wait, that wasn't it... <flips through "Nihilistic facade for dummies"> Oh yeah, *ahem* AAH HA HA HA HUH HA HA HA! Athrun: But seriously, If Kira is gonna be a Zaft whitecoat ace, and the series is porting in mobile suits from other gundam universes, they need to bring in the sazabi, and if they're not gonna let Rau fly it, Then it might as well be whitecoat Kira... |
2006-12-21, 17:45 | Link #305 | |||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I repeat: what fringe group does PLANT have to stop? I'm not particularly interested in if there may be the slightest chance that ZAFT may have to fight something, I'm interested in the likelihood of having to do so, and the justifications for such action. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Oh, and White_Harpy, Kira shouldn't be the villain; Lacus would be a much better choice.
__________________
|
|||||||||||||||||||
2006-12-21, 21:11 | Link #306 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
<Lacus> Kira, how do I look in this black cloak and cowl? <Kira> *heavy breathing* Ah, hm, good, my Master. <Lacus> Mou, you always say that. And how goes the construction of the Death Haro? |
|
2006-12-21, 21:28 | Link #307 | |
Tabloid Journalist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Where the Sidewalk Ends
Age: 38
|
Quote:
Instead of arguing about every technical sentence, because we’re getting lost in the details and not addressing some of the key issues, I’d rather just give you a rationale of where I’m coming from regarding state behavior and international politics. I’m getting sick of arguing this. I'm sure others are getting sick of us arguing this. I think it’s clear that we view international politics in a different light, and I don’t think we’re ever going to change each other’s minds. Now, you can feel free to contest every following sentence, I can’t prevent you from doing that, but I feel that I’ve made my point, and I think I'm done. Hopefully, this will answer your questions. Since we don’t agree on what constitutes a state’s survival, all of our other arguments regarding Kira and his decision to join ZAFT, and the likelihood of ZAFT engaging in warfare will disagree. It doesn’t mean you’re wrong and I’m right, it means both of us are using different political lenses to examine state behavior. For me, politics is all about unpredictability, and as a nation you have to be ready to deploy your military for several reasons. My underlying point was never that Kira will automatically have to fight for ZAFT, but when joining ZAFT, as a soldier, he has to be prepared to fight for ZAFT, no matter what the reason. You’re assuming that Kira when he joined ZAFT, his mode of mind was one that saw no potential enemies in the future and assumed that PLANT wouldn’t have any other interests besides your definition of “survival”, so the likelihood of him engaging in battle was small, and this played a decision in him joining ZAFT. I can see where you’re coming from but I can disagree. I disagree with the statement because again, from my perspective, when you join a military you always have to be prepared to fight no matter what the international situation looks like. When you put on that uniform, you’re serving that specific nation, and you have to take into account that you might be deployed for a variety of reasons other than official war. Furthermore, as a soldier, you must be prepared to fight for your nation when they engage in battle for their national interest, which could be official war. Nations address the concept of state survival in a variety of different ways. Sure survival can be manipulated to justify the national interest, but politicians often believe that they’re fighting for the survival of the state. It’s very subjective and there is hardly a right answer. Preventing the collapse of one’s nation-state, your definition of survival, can be a variety of things and it depends on the type of government in charge, the politicians, and the circumstances. I think states themselves are the only ones with the authority to define survival, because it’s not a universal definition. As to the likelihood of ZAFT’s deployment, again there’s always unpredictability. Intelligence can fail, catastrophes can happen, a fragile peace can be disturbed…there are variety of reasons for ZAFT to be deployed in the immediate future. When putting on his uniform Kira has to be ready for these situations, especially because you’re exiting a tumultuous period. Maybe none of them are visible, as you said and I’ve agreed with that, but a soldier must be prepared for all sorts of possibilities. A soldier’s psychology must be one of preparedness always, otherwise they get complacent. Now, maybe this isn’t the answer you’re looking for, but based on what I know about international relations, that’s the most fitting answer based on past events. This analogy isn’t perfect, but I hope it illustrates a point. After the Cold War, the United States had “won” it. They emerged as the supreme superpower. There were no possible enemies to fight, after all the Soviet Union had collapsed. There were no immediate threats in the future, the major opposition was basically destroyed. The Soviet Union and the United States were working together for better diplomatic relations. The Cold War officially ended in December 1989. Now, did anyone predict that the United States would principally participate in the Gulf War the next year? As a soldier planning to join the military, right after the CW, would you think the United States would want to be involved in more conflict after a period of intense cold and hot war? Was there a likelihood, a possibility? After all, Iraq and the U.S. were buddies during the CW. Furthermore, the Gulf War had to do with international peace and security. Not only protecting Kuwait from Iraqi aggression, but also protecting Saudi Arabia, a strategic location, but of course having nothing to do with U.S. survival as a nation-state under your definition. As a soldier you can’t just quit because you didn’t expect the unexpected. Politics are dirty, states act for a variety of reasons besides “survival” under your definition. Did anyone predict that the United States was going to send troops to Somalia? To Kosovo? Now, maybe it was a mistake to do so in hindsight, but politicians make the best decisions they can under those particular circumstances. And politicians also don’t make the best decision they can based on complete rationality. They often have to take into account a variety of constraints including public opinion, the media, political opponents, and the possibility of reelection. Also, a person of particular party may feel pressure to act in a certain way. It also depends on the structure of the political system in that domestic country and who exactly has a voice. The point is that unpredictability is always a part of the game. Just because there aren’t any traditional visible enemies, doesn’t mean that new enemies cannot be created by a slight change in foreign policy. Again, Iraq was the U.S.’s buddy during the CW, the US supplied weapons to fight against the Soviet-friendly Iranians, but just as the CW is about to end….Iraq “became” the abuser of human rights and a state aggressor. Kira needs to understand this as a soldier that international relations change constantly, so there is always the possibility of fighting when you join the military, and I would hope that was the primary thing in his mind when he joined ZAFT. So, I can’t point you to any concrete visible enemies in the CE world, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t or there won’t be. International Relations, alliances, friendships, and enemies are always shifting. Sometimes politicians can control it, but a lot of the times, it’s certain circumstances, events, and of course the flow of history. So, I’m ready to see who Kira’s next enemy will be in the movie. Will it be: A. Fringe groups/terrorists/the usual genocidaires B. Power-corrupted Lacus C. Earth Alliance D. A vigilante Shinn/Athrun E. ZAFT- because it just has to happen. |
|
2006-12-21, 23:24 | Link #308 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
He is there for Lacus, and he will fight to defend Lacus if need be. Lacus is the brain, Kira is the brawn. And the whole buisness of his promotion isn't anything more than making sure Kira can't be ordered around by anyone but those personally closest to him; Otherwise the odd white-coat would be able to tell him what to do. You need to remember, Fukuda doesn't actually plan very far as far as character interactions are concerned. There is likely no real deep meaning for Kira's Zaft rank other than because Lacus likes to see her man in white.
__________________
|
|
2006-12-21, 23:42 | Link #309 |
Tabloid Journalist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Where the Sidewalk Ends
Age: 38
|
Brilliant answer. Yup, silly of me to expect that Kira could think for himself...and he's one of my favorite characters too.
I guess I had a small hope that he had some sense of agency somewhere, but you're probably correct, he probably just thought only of Lacus when joining ZAFT. Well that certainly was a waste of time... |
2006-12-21, 23:50 | Link #310 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||||||
2006-12-22, 00:57 | Link #311 | |
Tabloid Journalist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Where the Sidewalk Ends
Age: 38
|
Quote:
Besides, I think I've accepted the Kira joins ZAFT simply for Lacus argument, after all why should he have to think so hard about these decisions. |
|
2006-12-22, 01:59 | Link #312 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
Never-mind that Lacus Clyne is the most influential person in Zaft right now, never-mind that she had always been trustworthy and had the best interests of his friends in mind, above all he loves her. Is there ANY reason why Kira would feel the need to do things by himself, when Lacus is always there to support him? Kira might be a one-man army, but that doesn't make him a loner. All your assumptions have one fundamental error; that somehow Kira want to avoid Lacus as much as possible. That is just illogical.
__________________
|
|
2006-12-22, 02:10 | Link #313 |
~Night of Gales~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
So... Just because Kira is not a solitary man living in his own world fighting for his own personal ideals that is not related to any other character, he's a bad character? No offence to anyone, but apparently it seems that very few people are trying to find a rational middle ground with Kira. It's either he becomes Lacus Drone #4685604 or he is his own man in his own world. LOL.
Kira is not a fundamental character of his own traits that is stemmed out of him, himself and Kira. Take note that Kira as a soldier, has never acknowledged that the path and enemies he is fighting against is wrong, and is always personally burdened by right and wrongs of things, because he and Athrun made mistakes in the past. He however knows that choosing to NOT DO ANYTHING is wrong, especially when he has the power and he has seen enough of people close to him to know who he can have faith in, without being blinded. If he was blindly loyal, he wouldn't had bitchowned Cagalli after kidnapping her. He can place his faith to others who know what they want to do, because he can believe in them. That's pretty much all that matters to Kira.
__________________
|
2006-12-22, 03:30 | Link #314 | |
Retweet Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
|
Well as usual I have to materialize for such matters...
@Night - The problem with your core analysis is that Kira 2.0 (The Kira of GSD) isn't the same Kira (fundamentally ignoring the 2 year gap in time that would make a natural change evident) and as for him b!tching at Cagali perhaps it would have worked out better had he had the same mindset about kidnapping her in the first place and what that would spawn (Perhaps he should have b!tched himself first)...But we all knew he had a "weird feeling" (whatever the hell that is) and supported (or guided or manipulated or whatever) by Lacus he went about his goal... His GF, a supposed fugitive from ZAFT, with political powers that would make Ceaser blush gets shot at and his sister was about to marry somebody other than his BFF which kinda ticked him off and that (along with some out of the air feeling) was the root of him getting involved in the fight...His first choice was indeed NOT TO DO ANYTHING...remember he was all too reserved to do whatever Waltfeld or Lacus wanted to do (If that meant hiding out on the Plants in another cabin with another birch-wood rocking chair out front for him to sway in)... So he's not a bad character because he's blindly loyal or loyal to a fault, he's bad because he was used like a 2 dollar whore to pimp the series and the one thing that could have made that acceptable was if he showed anytype of templet for his character change other than honestly resembeling a drone who is used by Lacus, the writer, or the creator for omniscience or omnipotence at various points of the tale...A character that 90% out of 100% IMO doesn't relate rationally or progressively with the character from the series prior... Quote:
__________________
|
|
2006-12-27, 00:26 | Link #315 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
Quote:
|
|
2006-12-27, 00:30 | Link #316 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
Quote:
|
|
2006-12-27, 00:57 | Link #317 |
Hello there
Fansubber
Join Date: Jan 2006
|
Don't forget that ZAFT doesn't have a rank infastructure like Orb and the Earth Forces do. So he might be in a position of authority, like a field commander (Yzak) or ship captain (Talia), but he's not going to be "General" of a ZAFT fleet or anything. Best he can do is a white uniform with connections to ZAFT leadership which basically lets him do whatever he wants, like Le Creuset.
__________________
|
2006-12-27, 15:29 | Link #320 |
Hello there
Fansubber
Join Date: Jan 2006
|
Basically, ZAFT's military is mainly run by their military space station (that hollowed out, cylindrical colony thing shown a lot during the series), or the Council can give executive orders. So basically the closest thing to a General ZAFT has is like when Gilbert was riding shotgun on the Minerva at Heaven's Base.
__________________
|
|
|