Romance in Macross

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by ippus

@BetoJR: I don't see how being less cute becomes automatic character development. Not everyone has to grow up to be non-cute;

And that's not what I'm saying. But the fact that she actually drops some of the mannerisms associated with a "cute" anime persona is indicative of bigger changes within, like her own behavior obviously states. At least, that's what I'm getting out of it.
And I didn't say she wasn't cute anymore, just that I didn't agree with Wesley84's point.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

They've got Sheryl locked in a certain persona, all for the sake of contrasting more sharply with Ranka.

Like I said before, I don't agree. Her persona is obviously still in flux. Just look at the end of episode 20, for instance. That's gotta be a sign of growing up and taking responsibility, if I ever saw one.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

The way I see Ranka is someone who achieved Stardom, but didn't forget where she came from or get caught up in the glamour. It's all pretty meaningless to her, and if not for circumstances, she'd probably be just as happy back serving fishheads at the Nyan Nyan. I think this is the case, because she's supposed to be contrasting with Sheryl and Alto who are addicted to the spotlight, who can't live without it, and simply must be at the center of attention.

I don't see it that way at all. Isn't it nice, when an anime makes different people interpret things differently?
I don't think Sheryl or Alto are as fame/adoration-hungry as you claim. But there are still some episodes left to see...

Ranka kind of stumbles into stardom, enters an entirely new and different world as stated by Sheryl, and she runs with it for awhile, but doesn't leave herself behind and ultimately grows out of it. Ranka is capable of performing, but it isn't her be all end all. That's where I see her as being human compared to the others. She doesn't think of herself as being special.

I think Ranka is playing the Minmey part, of the somewhat spoiled and selfish girl, who ultimately sacrifices her love/life for something more, either her music or the people. I guess it could end up differently, but the parallels to the original SDF Macross are too many for me to ignore (the "slap" scene alone is good enough proof, for me).

I considered your request considerably. What it comes down to basically is that Ranka isn't getting caught up in all the bullshit that Sheryl and Alto are up over their heads in.

Right. She only cares about what her "love" should be/do. That and getting her memories back. That's not a brain-twisting something, huh?

[BetoJR]

What troll?

[BetoJR]

Heh. But he surely doesn't seem to be the only one, does he? Anyway, here's hoping we all (or at least most of us) feel good about the impending series' end... and the triangular conclusion.

[ippus]

@indr0008: A troll is basically someone who purposely antagonizes other people on the interwebs through sarcastic and cynical insults, just for the sake doing so. Usually the victim of trolling doesn't really deserve it as the troll is just being an incredible jackass.

I don't really see how he's being associated with the definition of a troll, seeing as the only inflammatory comment he has made (that I've seen so far) is that beautiful people are evil (or at least is under the umbrella of such thought).

But then again I'm inexperienced with him/her/it and animesuki forums as a whole 8DDD and I tend to find it amusing when people make shallow comments about beautiful people being un-worthwhile due to the immediate assumption that their faces make them...well...shallow.

@solothurn: But...it IS Ranka's show. Even their published manga is named after her, and she has the most prominent screen time as well as a larger number of songs. She's even sitting on the special powers throne of main charactered d00m.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by ippus

I don't really see how he's being associated with the definition of a troll, seeing as the only inflammatory comment he has made (that I've seen so far) is that beautiful people are evil (or at least is under the umbrella of such thought).

Same goes here. But, like you, I'm fairly inexperienced with these forums, as well.

@solothurn: But...it IS Ranka's show. Even their published manga is named after her, and she has the most prominent screen time as well as a larger number of songs. She's even sitting on the special powers throne of main charactered d00m.

Heh, I, for one, believe this to be an ensemble piece, with the three main characters rotating in the spotlight, mostly. Just like Minmey wasn't the main character of SDF Macross, all those years ago. Which is, obviously, another standing point in almost all of the series.

[ippus]

Being the main character has never meant being in the spotlight 24/7.

I don't disagree that the three of them are the frontal primary characters, but the focus is undeniably on Ranka from beginning till end :/ She gets the strange powers, she gets to sing more/useful songs, she gets to experience more of the story plot and every single character is associated and interested in her, whether it be the heroes or villains.

She also gets the more prominent "main love interest" position in most of the posters and imagery that surrounds MF, namely closer and interacting with Alto, whereas Sheryl is usually set slightly away, or floating gloriously in the background.

Again I know seeing as it's Kawamori, some of this probably makes no impact on the final outcome (as Minmay takes up those poster pictures a lot as well) but the fact remains that Ranka is much more important than the rest of the characters, and if this were a normal animation group, the Sheryl parade would have been d00med to failure.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by ippus

Again I know seeing as it's Kawamori, some of this probably makes no impact on the final outcome (as Minmay takes up those poster pictures a lot as well) but the fact remains that Ranka is much more important than the rest of the characters, and if this were a normal animation group, the Sheryl parade would have been d00med to failure.

And you sum it up pretty well, right there: it's Kawamori's show. So, we can assume some things and mostly feel bewildered when they're not exactly as we expected them to be.
I disagree with your assertion that Ranka is the main/most important character in Macross F, as the cute kawaii girls usually overshadow the other characters in promotional pieces, on most anime series. That, alone, doesn't imply that they're the main characters, specially here, when, even in the OPs, Ranka obviously shares the spotlight with Sheryl (and, to a slightly smaller degree, Alto).
And, the implication that she sings more songs... that I just don't see.

One other thing: if Ranka feels more "useful", by your own statement, then Sheryl is going to be the girl battling a disease. What's more mainstream leading lady in drama?

[solothurn]

@ippus:

I humbly beg to disagree; My perspective here is based on Macross as a franchise and not just Frontier alone, considering that this is technically their 25th anniversary work and is basically part homage to the original series. I am in support of the idea that Alto is *roughly* (this is the keyword) the main character of the TV series. There is no clear cut main character in Frontier, but rather, the stage is shared by basically the plot of "the power of song" and the love triangle.

If you look at past Macross shows, there has never been a lead that *doesn't* pilot a VF. (Aside from Macross II, but that's not exactly the best example.) It's somewhat like a tradition, and given that Frontier has a lot of homages in it, I don't think they're breaking away from that now.

Another thing is that if Ranka Lee is indeed the main character of Frontier, clearly in most of the shots in, let's say, OP sequences and the like, the main character normally has the most number of appearancess. But based on the shown OP's (Ranka's exclusive OP not included), it's usually shared by the three of them, with more or less little discrepancies.

While I do admit that Ranka had been given more exposure than either Alto or Sheryl *individually*, especially with that one-time special OP, I still think that it's something similar to the Northern Cross ED to which is Sheryl-exclusive-it's mostly a tripping by the director to break the monotony of a show's OP-ED sequences.

Another thing, while I do admit that I have not read the Macross Frontier manga, nor even seen it, if Ranka is indeed the clear main chacracter of that, I do not think that this holds any bearing to the actual series (TV), considering lots of animes have accompanying "official" mangas that are drastically different to their TV series counterparts. Good examples of this are MaiHime and MaiOtome.

[ippus]

@BetoJR: Through the viewpoint of an animation franchise that is more interested in intergalactic battles, aliens, songs and romance? Ranka pretty much wins hands down. Besides, we haven't actually dwelled all that much on Sheryl's illness to make it of any great importance. It's there for her character development, but it's occurance doesn't really affect anyone in the show other than possibly Alto if he does come to choose her and maybe Klein.

Ranka on the other hand, if she died, would cause basically everyone involved in the show to cry.

Ranka gets a hell a lot more songs than Sheryl Nome does, even if they are mostly cover music, they're sung nonetheless.

@solothurn: I can see why you're saying it, and I do agree to an extent- however that comparison doesn't really work seeing as Alto is possibly the world's most minor hero despite his position as the main male love interest. He's mostly passive on his take with either girls, and his battles are mostly defensive. His ass gets kicked repeatedly by Burera, and all in all his storyline is rarely ever brought out by him, but by other people. Alto also rarely ever really accomplishes anything that causes mass effect.

If you compare him to Hikaru, Basara, and wassisfacescruffy from Macross Zero, you'd notice that he really doesn't take up much of the story, and spends more time just following people around.

There's also a massive difference in degree of importance between the OP and ED. The OP is usually watched, as well as required to make the show distinguishable when it comes out on TV. OPs are rarely ever changed until a new season or new segment of the show, while the ED is usually skipped, so having a Ranka-centric OP does weigh more than a Sheryl ED which was already balanced out with numerous Aimos and a recent splash ending of Azure Ether.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by ippus

@BetoJR: Through the viewpoint of an animation franchise that is more interested in intergalactic battles, aliens, songs and romance? Ranka pretty much wins hands down. Besides, we haven't actually dwelled all that much on Sheryl's illness to make it of any great importance. It's there for her character development, but it's occurance doesn't really affect anyone in the show other than possibly Alto if he does come to choose her and maybe Klein.

Dude, she's the Galactic Faerie. I highly doubt the only person affected by her untimely demise would be Alto. And why Klein?

Ranka gets a hell a lot more songs than Sheryl Nome does, even if they are mostly cover music, they're sung nonetheless.

I disagree. The amount of songs seems pretty balanced to me. Show of hands?

There's also a massive difference in degree of importance between the OP and ED. The OP is usually watched, as well as required to make the show distinguishable when it comes out on TV. OPs are rarely ever changed until a new season or new segment of the show, while the ED is usually skipped, so having a Ranka-centric OP does weigh more than a Sheryl ED which was already balanced out with numerous Aimos and a recent splash ending of Azure Ether.

I find it strange, tho. And I like that they sorta subverted this trend with some EDs that actually carry some plot elements forward, be it through songs or by scenes/dialogues during or after the credits. And, honestly, numerous Aimos and one Azure Ether, when all the others are sung by Sheryl?
And about the Ranka-centric OP... that was keeping in tone with the happenings in the series, so it was quite interesting to see (even if the song wasn't one of the best).

[ippus]

Let's not forget the Galactic Faerie's career literally collapsed in a matter of days over the Zentradi incident- and she was ill too. Macross public opinion is pretty harsh seeing as she basically got the Britney Spears treatment of Macross land.

There was a song count for both heroines somewhere in the music section of this forum, and Ranka's was a longer list- though it included really WTF songs, and music covers, but they are still part of her singing line so it can't really be dismissed.

When you say "when all the others" that actually counts as two songs (Diamond Crevasse and Northern Cross), against Ranka's Aimo, Azure Ether, Sheryl Cover song (forgot what it was *too lazy to go back and check*) as well as one crappy OP :/

[solothurn]

Well, to be honest, the only reasons why Alto is somewhat my candidate as roughly the main character are only because of the tradition of previous series and how the entire love triangle, the little details (official anime websites usually have the main character listed as the first character in their character profiles section) and the imaging of the show goes. (2 girls, 1 VF pilot guy. Macross is first, and foremost a love-mecha show: which means 99% of the time: a lead character that's going to be a pilot.) Other than that, there's almost nothing to hold him in the spotlight. I'm not actually saying that he *is*, just that he's "almost, but not quite."

Additionally, out of all the Japanese magazines and publications that contained Macross Frontier character introductions, if Ranka were truly the lead character, they should've had "Shuu Jin Kou" (kanji) clearly labeld in her profile, as the protagonist of the story. So far, I have not yet seen any article that did so. (Please direct me to a source if you have seen one.)

As for the Ranka OP, it only lasted for a single episode-it should really not hint at anything IMO, as similar as to the Azure Ether ED, which is mostly due to the fact that the episode is dedicated to Ranka. Which is why I grouped it in the same way I grouped the Northern Cross ED, or to be more precise, that single Ranka-based ED aside from Azure Ether. If the Ranka OP/ED were truly indicative of the leading nature of Ranka as compared to the rest of the cast, then they could have shown it more than once, or maybe they could've changed Lion into a Ranka-centric OP. But the fact that both regular OP's focused on the three of them, I highly doubt it.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I don't see it that way at all. Isn't it nice, when an anime makes different people interpret things differently?
I don't think Sheryl or Alto are as fame/adoration-hungry as you claim. But there are still some episodes left to see...

Then they should never have introduced Alto's brother, because he specifically said as much to Sheryl in regards to Alto, and she reacted to it quite heavily. I hate his guts and if everything he ever said or did proved meaningless, what a horrid waste of time.

I think Ranka is playing the Minmey part, of the somewhat spoiled and selfish girl, who ultimately sacrifices her love/life for something more, either her music or the people. I guess it could end up differently, but the parallels to the original SDF Macross are too many for me to ignore (the "slap" scene alone is good enough proof, for me).

Alto is Minmey. Ranka is Hikaru. As for Frontier's "homage" they've taken too many liberties with Frontiers story and character developement just to insert some throwback from an old series. I see it as damaging to Frontier as a stand alone series, but old fans love it so who cares?

Right. She only cares about what her "love" should be/do. That and getting her memories back. That's not a brain-twisting something, huh?

I don't understand what you mean.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Like I said before, I don't agree. Her persona is obviously still in flux. Just look at the end of episode 20, for instance. That's gotta be a sign of growing up and taking responsibility, if I ever saw one.

Sheryl recognized a captive audience, and took the advantage. Hell, even the damn emergency lighting was working to her benefit.

Originally Posted by ippus

@Wesley84: Here I disagree completely.
What confuses me the most about Ranka, was the fact she started the series blabbing about how she wanted to communicate her feelings to the world, and how she wanted to be recognized for singing. She claimed that singing was her everything, and her passion at the time was momentarily endearing. It attracted Sheryl to help her through with her seemingly sparkling dream, without ever caring that this would result in competition. She wanted to see her sparkle on full shine.

And then suddenly, this dream, this ideal of hers completely disappeared without warning. In the very recent episodes we already see that the people she has lived with, the people who cares about her, literally everyone in the fleet doesn't matter next to Alto. Her music was, for some strange and rather abrupt reason, only for him, so much so that she would now rather snub the countless people who sacrificed themselves to keep her and the fleet safe by refusing to sing at their funeral (This wasn't even about the Vajira. Though I suppose when a Mushroom head asks you to sing, the natural response would be "No.").

She may not consider herself special, but she definitely (though possibly unconsciously) considers herself higher than everyone else, seeing as she puts her own interests (namely her need to remember her own past) far in front of the safety of others.

I don't think Ranka had serious aspirations for singing. Hell, it's Macross. Evidently the entire population reveres Idols, singers, and pilots as God-like beings that everyone should aspire to. Singing as a means of communication or expressing yourself is hardly an original dream or ideal, and it makes sense for an impressionable young girl to pick up the idea from whatever entertainment weekly she has on hand or even their freakin' history books.

Once she decided to try it out, basically everyone pushed her into doing it. The only one who put up any opposition was Ozma, and he wasn't very diplomatic...

I see Ranka getting into things casually, and ending up not wanting to let anyone down. Until now, where she's finally thinking about what she really wants.

[ippus]

@solothurn:
It's because all the things you mention get in the way of the love triangle, which is honestly what MF is mostly all about. There hasn't been a Macross that has been so exceedingly romance-centric before, seeing as most of the fights in this series is pretty long-winded, repetetive, and generally very, VERY dull. It basically feels like MF has fight scenes purely out of obligation towards the motifs of the typical Macross franchise, much like how M7 was mostly about music (which made...the villains so incredibly retarded, but oh wells. It was a good laugh :'D)

I'm not saying they don't all have important roles, just that Ranka is, by very traditional standards, the main heroine as she has the most connections with the majority of the show's characters and is generally the one that gets the more prominent spotlight.

I don't ENJOY the fact that I see her as the main character, but traditionally she is, and nobody has really topped their importance over hers.
We do have a few more episodes to go though :3 hopefully something makes me happyfied.

@Wesley84: She had aspirations. It's canon that she did.

She didn't get into casually, in fact she didn't just "stumble" into the spotlight. She purposely went ahead and sang, got noticed, and went through pretty humiliating acts (She sang as a bloody carrot for heaven's sake;;;; ) before finally making a big bang by stealing Sheryl's act (again not intentionally, but she did.).If anything, she had plenty of chances to throw it all down and go "ENOUGH, I DON'T CARE ANYMORE" but...she didn't. Instead she wanted to get into movies, sing on stage, be in the spotlight as opposed to a mere waitress selling nipple buns.

Nobody forced her to do anything, and if I'm not wrong, Ranka's original reason for enjoying singing was because she felt a strong affinity with songs due to "Aimo" being her only link to her past.

I repeat.
Nobody forced her to do anything.
Most people just encouraged her to do something she sat around talking about all day long.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by ippus

@Wesley84: She had aspirations. It's canon that she did.

She didn't get into casually, in fact she didn't just "stumble" into the spotlight. She purposely went ahead and sang, got noticed, and went through pretty humiliating acts (She sang as a bloody carrot for heaven's sake;;;; ) before finally making a big bang by stealing Sheryl's act (again not intentionally, but she did.).If anything, she had plenty of chances to throw it all down and go "ENOUGH, I DON'T CARE ANYMORE" but...she didn't. Instead she wanted to get into movies, sing on stage, be in the spotlight as opposed to a mere waitress selling nipple buns.

Nobody forced her to do anything, and if I'm not wrong, Ranka's original reason for enjoying singing was because she felt a strong affinity with songs due to "Aimo" being her only link to her past.

I repeat.
Nobody forced her to do anything.
Most people just encouraged her to do something she sat around talking about all day long.

Ranka is to singing as a rabid DBZ fan becoming fed up with...DBZ. Seemed like a good idea/thing at the time. I'm sure years from now when she's munching on the giant carcass of a Zentradi marine, she'll look back fondly on her singing career, but only for nostaglic purposes, and then immediately be distracted by the delicious morsel in front of her again.

As for no one forcing, there's forcing someone with a gun to their head, and then there's forcing someone with personality/enthusiasm. Nanase, her best friend, and later her manager. Another example, Sheryl making Alto do pretty much anything and everything she wants.

[ippus]

Considering Alto's personality, he has every possibility of just saying no and moving on (frankly he's pretty insensitive). Sheryl...technically really couldn't force him to do anything. He didn't even like her in the beginning so it's pretty safe to say that he did everything afterwards because he wanted to.

Once again, Ranka's original interest in singing developed from it being the only link to her past. She never said she started singing because of Sheryl Nome (At least I don't recall such a thing ever happening) so calling her a rabid fan mimicking her idol/object of obsession isn't remotely right.

Nanase...wanted Ranka to do it, knowing it was her dream. Considering that girl totally adores the living crap out of Ranka, I seriously doubt she'd want to force something Ranka dislikes upon her.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by ippus

Considering Alto's personality, he has every possibility of just saying no and moving on (frankly he's pretty insensitive). Sheryl...technically really couldn't force him to do anything. He didn't even like her in the beginning so it's pretty safe to say that he did everything afterwards because he wanted to.

The only thing Alto likes more than folding paper airplanes is complaining, and Sheryl gives him alot to complain about.

Once again, Ranka's original interest in singing developed from it being the only link to her past. She never said she started singing because of Sheryl Nome (At least I don't recall such a thing ever happening) so calling her a rabid fan mimicking her idol/object of obsession isn't remotely right.

It was a bad analogy. I didn't mean to say Ranka was rabid about singing, only that she kind of liked it, but ends up not really liking it. And I don't really think Aimo played a big part in her decision to try to make it big. That was all Nanase and Sheryl.

Nanase...wanted Ranka to do it, knowing it was her dream. Considering that girl totally adores the living crap out of Ranka, I seriously doubt she'd want to force something Ranka dislikes upon her.

Doubtless, Nanase would support whatever Ranka wants to do, but her enthuasism is a little intimidating, and I'm sure Ranka doesn't want to take her friend's support for granted.

[ippus]

Er...I don't remember ever a time when Alto complained about Sheryl o_O at least, not in ways he doesn't about anybody else.

And...what? Since when did Nanase and Sheryl EVER tell her to make it big with Aimo;;; You're just making things up now.

Also, considering Ranka basically just dropped the whole Songstress of Hope act despite having the lives of the entire fleet of Macross on the line, I seriously doubt Nanase's enthusiasm did very much at all.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by ippus

Er...I don't remember ever a time when Alto complained about Sheryl o_O at least, not in ways he doesn't about anybody else.

Exactly. He complains about everything to anyone.

And...what? Since when did Nanase and Sheryl EVER tell her to make it big with Aimo;;; You're just making things up now.

I didn't say that.

Also, considering Ranka basically just dropped the whole Songstress of Hope act despite having the lives of the entire fleet of Macross on the line, I seriously doubt Nanase's enthusiasm did very much at all.

Besides getting hurt, among alot of other things that happened after the fleet got wtfpwned.