[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 488 Discussion

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Langus

I would absolutely love for it to be revealed that Ishida was put into Ichigo's group from the very beginning as a mole, who then reported everything back to the Quincy who intend to use the intel they have gathered on SS and Ichigo's powers against them. That would be epic. Especially if Ishida ended up having one of those inconvenient changes of heart half way through because he realized that Ichigo was an alright guy and kind of wanted to be his friend. That plot line would completely restore this manga for me, I think.

not for me at all. we would have to chalk up ishida's friendship to 'great acting' and that wouldn't be believable. it would be a very noticeable and bad retcon to turn ishida into a series-long spy

Originally Posted by haegar

wouldn't go so far as to say "completely restore the manga" but yeah might be interesting. I dunno though, I think there rather might be something of a connection with dad, not Ishida himself. Cause if memory serves right he did not want Ishida to train with his grandpa? Maybe there was a reason to that, such as Ishida becoming a capable Quincy putting him in danger as it exposes him to the Vanden?

I wanna know more about the relationship between the the fathers, there must be something there ...

i can see ishida's father having a connection to them as much more likely and actually very probable. most likely ishida's grandfather was part of the normal quincies who were somewhat innocent and ignorant of what was happening in SS and his father didn't want to associate with him and the others since he and the vanden saw the genocide coming and were preparing for it already

[sayde]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

not for me at all. we would have to chalk up ishida's friendship to 'great acting' and that wouldn't be believable.

As Langus kind of alluded to, we wouldn't necessarily have to chalk up Ishida's friendship to great acting so long as he truly wasn't putting on an act in that regard. That's to say, we'd have to believe he did come to see Ichigo and co. as friends while being forced to deal with conflicting emotions & agendas in secret ever since. Its an amusing thought IMO. And when you think about all places he's been to, all the things he's learned, and all the beings he's met, the intel he'd be able to provide for the Vandereich's would definitely be valuable.

With that said, I don't think that's the direction Kubo's going to go with.

[Haak]

Even if he did it would just be a repeat of the Fullbringer arc. We've already had a case "Nakama was secretly gonna betray me but didn't after all". It would just be another recycled plot line.

Anyway it would have to be a retcon. When Ishida told Ichigo about the massacre, he did say that he didn't care about the fact that the Quincies were massacred but was angry about the fact that they unnecessarily left his grandfather to die. He even said the massacre was justifiable, so it's not like he holds any particular solidarity or strong patriotism for quincies.

So any significant mixed feelings about fighting quincies would be OOC too.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by sayde

As Langus kind of alluded to, we wouldn't necessarily have to chalk up Ishida's friendship to great acting so long as he truly wasn't putting on an act in that regard. That's to say, we'd have to believe he did come to see Ichigo and co. as friends while being forced to deal with conflicting emotions & agendas in secret ever since. Its an amusing thought IMO. And when you think about all places he's been to, all the things he's learned, and all the beings he's met, the intel he'd be able to provide for the Vandereich's would definitely be valuable.

With that said, I don't think that's the direction Kubo's going to go with.

that's true to an extent, but ishida spying on everyone all this time would throw a wrench into his friendship with them. spying on people invariably does that since it's a betrayal of trust. ishida's character hasn't had any inklings of trust betrayal since he was developed as a friend during the SS arc. it would require acting since he would have to hide the fact that he was doing that. he knew ichigo and his friends had close ties to the Shinigami so reporting on them all to their sworn enemies is a big deal and one that he would have to hide and feel guilt about if he really was their friend (which he is no doubt)

so the spy retcon would be a total hatchet job on the previous story (like's aizen's weak points about alerting SS to rukia's presence in KT, sending renji and byakuya, etc... and then expecting us to believe that was enough proof that aizen planned everything) I also dont believe thats the direction kubo will go, but I'm sure ishida will have to face a choice between the two sides at some point

[james0246]

I'm disappointed in the female arrancar (why Kubo has to always use female characters that need to be saved is just silly), but otherwise this was a fun chapter. The revelation of the Quincy was/is expected, but considering their background in the series, I am more than happy to see their inclusion during the final story arc. I can't wait to see where Ishida falls during this crisis (here's hoping Kubo doesn't do a 'Rescue Ishida' arc).

That being said, I also love the idea that Ishida was a plant of some sort. It's unlikely (how would the Quicy know how important Ichigo would become?), but it is still a fun story idea.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, I also love the idea that Ishida was a plant of some sort. It's unlikely (how would the Quicy know how important Ichigo would become?), but it is still a fun story idea.

That's true. When Ishida first met Ichigo he was just a kid with shinigami powers and had no official connection with Soul Society at all. He wouldn't have been a good source for any kind of useful info. Not to mention Ishida presented himself as enemy--not exactly a good starting place if you're looking to gain someone's trust.

Still, it wouldn't be entirely unbelievable if Ishida came into contact with this new group sometime during the timeskip, (sorta like how the Fullbringers recruited Chad and no one knew about it). I could see him maybe agreeing not to work with them, but not act against them either.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, I also love the idea that Ishida was a plant of some sort. It's unlikely (how would the Quicy know how important Ichigo would become?), but it is still a fun story idea.

An actual discussion - nice! Okay so here's what I was thinking... and it wouldn't have to be completely retcon to have the plot go this way.

We know from the previous arc (the Aizen arc) that Aizen had been studying Ichigo from the time of his birth. This was because he's half shinigami half ... (human?) and for that reason he was of interest to Aizen who was obsessed with evolving the reaches of his own power. Now, who's to say that the Quincy weren't ALSO interested in Ichigo from the beginning for this very reason? If they had previously had an all out war with Soul Society, it makes sense that they would be watching this new hybrid shinigami with a lot of interest.

Now go back to Season 1. Ishida was NOT Ichigo's friend to begin with. He could barely tolerate him. Their friendship evolved gradually during the SS arc out of mutual respect for each others' powers. He also realized that Ichigo wasn't a complete dick. Their friendship and Ishida's refusal to continue helping the Quincy might explain the terse relationship he has with his father, as well.

Whatever Ishida might have said about the Shinigami/Quincy war should be taken with a grain of salt. He flipped his shit when the Captain let him know about how he'd tortured his grandfather and then did his best to annihilate him. I would argue that Ishida has always been a proud Quincy. It's very much a core part of his character. I can definitely see how he would be conflicted having grown up proud of what he is, hating those who destroyed his clan in a brutal war, and then inevitably becoming friends with one of them.

Like James, I doubt Kubo will actually go down this road but it would be interesting if he did.

[james0246]

To put things in perspective, Ichigo wasn't necessarily needed for any Quincy plans. Specifically, the initial Ishida encounter (unleashing the Hollows on the town) could have been a way to draw out a Shinigami (any Shingami) in order to advance the Quicy plans. The fact that Ishida could use a novice Shinigami (who turned out to be much more) to further the Quincy plans only sweetened the deal. (Though, I admit that the Quincy knowing of Aizen's plans (or at least keeping track of Aizen) is a very interesting prospect, and it requires little in the way of retcon (unlike the intial idea that Aizen had been keeping track of Ichigo all along).)

Whatever the case, Ishida does have a habit of saving Ichigo. Consequently, it is possible that he has always been looking out for him under Quincy orders...or they could just be friends...but that is too boring an answer now ...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Though, I admit that the Quincy knowing of Aizen's plans (or at least keeping track of Aizen) is a very interesting prospect, and it requires little in the way of retcon (unlike the intial idea that Aizen had been keeping track of Ichigo all along.

isn't it the same retcon as aizen basically? just more people watching other people and waiting for their particular arc to make a move? if this turns out to be the case, ichigo's life is basically the truman show. it's just layers of spying and biding time to strike

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Langus

Whatever Ishida might have said about the Shinigami/Quincy war should be taken with a grain of salt. He flipped his shit when the Captain let him know about how he'd tortured his grandfather and then did his best to annihilate him. I would argue that Ishida has always been a proud Quincy. It's very much a core part of his character. I can definitely see how he would be conflicted having grown up proud of what he is, hating those who destroyed his clan in a brutal war, and then inevitably becoming friends with one of them.

I'm pretty sure he flipped his lid because he found out the grandfather he cared so much for had been tortured to death, not because his Quincy identity had been humiliated.

He didn't even think twice about giving up his quincy powers just to annihilate Mayuri.

[bonsobon]

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm pretty sure he flippped his lid becausr he found out the grandfather he cared so much for had been tortured to death, not because his Quincy indentity had been humiliated.

He didn't even think twice about giving up his quincy powers just to anihalate Mayuri.

I agree with this. Ishida's grandfather held no grudge for what happened to the Quincy, so he didn't either. It was personal and nothing more.

Besides we've already had instances in the manga where people questioned whose side Ishida was on; the hollow contest when he was first introduced and during the Fullbring arc. It would make no sense to have it happen a third time, especially so soon after the second time.

[Haak]

I should point this out now to avoid confusion: He definitely does have some Quincy pride but my point is that from what we've seen it shouldn't be anything strong enough for him to seriously consider taking the quincies side if they're truly bad guys.

[Alchemist007]

Unless...he was an undercover nazi this whole time! It's so obvious now!

[Poetic Justice]

The quincy's are obviously the 'evil' ones Ishida doesn't want to associate with.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by Haak

I should point this out now to avoid confusion: He definitely does have some Quincy pride but my point is that from what we've seen it shouldn't be anything strong enough for him to seriously consider taking the quincies side if they're truly bad guys.

I agree. I definitely don't think he'd be a traitor to them now. I'm just pointing out that it's not entirely impossible that he was one to begin with. At the beginning of the series, before he became friends with Ichigo, he had a pretty contemptuous attitude towards Shinigami. I don't think it's implausible that if someone on the Quincy side had asked him to gather information about Ichigo and Soul Society that he wouldn't have done it then.

[astrallionheart]

Re-adjusting glasses and glinting lens = scheming

Therefore Ishida has been a double-agent all along!

[haegar]

one thing where this might be retconed in is Sayzel's Lab in HM. If memory serves right the identity of those two bodies Mayuri found in there still has not been revealed? He was strangely interested in his find so it was always assumed there was something special to them. Then everybody assumed Kubo had just forgoten. But maybe he is forgetting so many little details cause they later turn into retcon anchors

So, lez say Aizen or Sayzel caught himself some Vanden. Outa curiosity or whatever. After Aizen is beaten, HM is pretty much forgoten by SS, so the Vanden, searching for their missing members found the remnants of the Lab. They did not find their comrades but they found maybe useful stuff...

as for Ishida/Mayuri, I also think he went for him 'personally' as he is such an ass and killed Ishida's granddad. Bear in mind Ishida never held any grudge against any of the captains after that. Well, other than Mayuri himself as he kept doing nasty stuff toIshhida and Renji in HM Only when interacting with Ichigo he used his usual "shinigamis all suck" attitude now and then, and that more like a running gag between the two of them than in earnest. The way he behaves he has not only accepted Ichigo as a good guy but also a number of Ichi's SS friends. Course he doesn't say so directly but oh well, that's where the quincy pride comes in XD

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Langus

I agree. I definitely don't think he'd be a traitor to them now. I'm just pointing out that it's not entirely impossible that he was one to begin with. At the beginning of the series, before he became friends with Ichigo, he had a pretty contemptuous attitude towards Shinigami. I don't think it's implausible that if someone on the Quincy side had asked him to gather information about Ichigo and Soul Society that he wouldn't have done it then.

it's not impossible, but it is illogical. we've seen how quickly the vanden dispatch of their own members who aren't in full compliance. they would have killed ishida long ago if he went against them in any way

[Langus]

I never said anything about the Vanden?

I get the impression that the Vanden and the Quincy are opposite entities. One comes from the other, but that doesn't mean their motives are the same. Kind of like the Vizards and the Shinigami.

[Alchemist007]

I really shouldn't overlook the fact that the captains have been dead wrong before.