Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by dkellis

I'm probably doing a Bad Thing by not reading all of the thread before commenting, but it's late and I'm just excited. (And tired.)

So far in my view, the infamous last scene of the episode can have two broad interpretations as follows:

Spoiler:

1) Nanoha snapped due to some incident, and lost her temper. She then used far more force than was strictly necessary to take down Teana.

The way she went all quiet and sorrowful and eerily calm sounds fairly plausible for someone who is really angry. (In fact, when I get really pissed off, I pretty much go all quiet and polite myself.) Raw emotions just get mostly shut down, and channelled into a white-hot lance of purpose that doesn't turn up on the outside except for a sort of tunnel-vision: the next thing that is deemed to be necessary will get done, and anyone/anything else in the way is just... irrelevant.

However, whether this is how Nanoha becomes really angry is unknown; we've never seen her like this in the first series or in A's. The most in A's we've seen is just her getting determined-angry, not intense-rage angry.

Speculation: maybe the much-bandied about Accident in the past where Nanoha got badly injured was due to herself getting careless. In fact, considering how much Vita went off on Teana the previous episode, I'm guessing that Nanoha's carelessness got her in the way of Vita's attack, whether training or otherwise.

A level-headed instructor could have used a Bind on Subaru and a Bind on Teana, with an option to upgrade the Bind on Teana if the latter got really frothy-mouthed. The way Nanoha slammed two attacks into Teana while Binding Subaru and telling her to "watch" means that Nanoha is probably not being level-headed as such. This is entirely plausible; the lack of reactions from the other RF6 members might be due to their not believing that Nanoha really did something like that, and just getting dumbfounded when she did.

After all, if RF6's psych profile division didn't catch Teana's self-esteem issues, I'm not sure if they would catch such a trauma (rarely-triggered?) from Nanoha's past. (I say "rarely-triggered" because I don't think anyone other than Teana would have done anything like that.)

However, her actions could also be interpreted in another way, which puts marginally less "blame" on Nanoha:

2) Nanoha is trying to send a message to Teana and Subaru, and may or may not be in full possession of her wits at the time. (I'll assume the former for this theory, that Nanoha knows exactly what she is doing and the consequences thereof; the latter is a mix between the following speculation and the previous one.)

Nanoha told Subaru to "watch", and then blasted Teana (for the second time). This meant that the message that Nanoha is sending could be towards Teana, or towards Subaru, or perhaps even both. Essentially, Nanoha is willing to be the Bad Cop in order to push her message home.

Somewhat tied in to this would be the speculation of what the message was. Some examples might be:

- "Follow orders, or people will get hurt." This can be directed towards both of them. Since Teana did not seem willing to listen to reason, perhaps Subaru could be shown the consequences instead of being the "victim" (and thus be the one to rein Teana in). Better that this happen in a mock-battle than the real thing.

- "Keep trying to kill yourself, and you might well succeed." This message seems like it might be for Teana, but would actually be obliquely directed at Subaru. Teana's tactics so far seem to be all-or-nothing, where either she wins, or she's probably going to die. So, with Teana unwilling to change her self-destructive tendencies, and Subaru not appearing to really notice this, maybe this will drive home to Subaru how close to the edge Teana is teetering.

- "If you want to fight a real enemy, I'll show you what a real enemy is like." This ties in a bit with the "If I have to be a demon to make you listen, then a demon I'll be" line from A's. Also, there may be shades of it in the above two possible messages. Basically, Nanoha is showing the two Newbies what it's like to fight someone who's well and truly serious. For example, if Teana wants to treat this as a serious battle, then Nanoha may as well oblige her.

- "Your partner's down. What will you do now?" Rather obviously for Subaru; she's seen someone she idolizes shoot down her best friend and partner in cold blood. How she reacts might determine whether she's fit for battle, since Teana obviously isn't.

Now, I speculate (without any evidence) that the truth is a mixture of the two; Nanoha is letting her personal feelings get into training, but she's also conscious of the message that she wants to send, rather than being completely blinded with emotion.

Also, we see big explosions and all that. We don't know whether Nanoha had actually pulled her punches.

Well, that was a rather depressing rush (contradictory as it may seem). I think I'll go watch some Lucky Star to get my good humour back.

I should think that all these reasons applies to this situation. Of course whether Nanoha was thinking of them is another question but introspection would render tham all valid.

It's like digging, the deeper you go, the more you can come up with.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by dkellis

- "If you want to fight a real enemy, I'll show you what a real enemy is like."

She may have said that, but she didn't truly fulfill all of the things that would've happened had she been a real enemy. Once again: If Nanoha had acted like their real enemy, Subaru and Teana would both be dead.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

She may have said that, but she didn't truly fulfill all of the things that would've happened had she been a real enemy. Once again: If Nanoha had acted like their real enemy, Subaru and Teana would both be dead.

Or worse, if the person is psycho or likes to torture his prey...

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

Nanoha Taisen will NOT restart. We're doing fine without them and we've got a nice post count while being on topic. Let's leave it that way.

I was trying to promote harmony here despite our differences. Haru really scared me with his post on that matter.

Originally Posted by Estavali

Or worse, if the person is psycho or likes to torture his prey...

So it's Hannibal now?! The little girl has come of age...

@Fuyu: She might have been shooting her trainees with the magical equivalent of rubber bullets, which hurt like hell but supposedly don't kill. It still doesn't mitigate the fact that it is dangerous, we'll see how clean-up occurs next week.

[Estavali]

Ah, nvm...

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

She may have said that, but she didn't truly fulfill all of the things that would've happened had she been a real enemy. Once again: If Nanoha had acted like their real enemy, Subaru and Teana would both be dead.

True that she didn't quite completely follow through on that. Though if she had killed them it wouldn't have taught them much of a lesson . Probably that's the point but anyways. Well unless they can remember this in the afterlife, but that's another discussion.

Let's hope we aren't seeing people getting tortured. YnS and bondage is one thing, and we did have Fate getting whipped in the first season, so I guess anything is possible.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

True that she didn't quite completely follow through on that. Though if she had killed them it wouldn't have taught them much of a lesson . Well unless they can remember this in the afterlife, but that's another discussion.

Uh no-no. I meant if Nanoha had actually been an enemy. If that was a real-life situation and they confronted....................Spaghetti for example,(and say he's the psycho type). They'd be dead.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

True that she didn't quite completely follow through on that. Though if she had killed them it wouldn't have taught them much of a lesson . Well unless they can remember this in the afterlife, but that's another discussion.

Funny but I can imagine Nanoha yelling "Remember this in your afterlife!" while using Accel Shooter Magna.

Btw, do you guys agree that for Nanoha...

- Offensive Power varies inversely with friendliness?

- Accel Shooter = Kill while Starlight Breaker = Befriend?

[KempoCatholic]

OK, finally watched the ep and finished reading through the whole board. <pant, pant>

The first thing that I did after watching this ep was go back and watch the infamous "it's okay if I'm a demon" scene from A's. White Devil is back baby! Having Nanoha do this takes her away from the super-nice coddling trainer that we were sort of being led into believing Nanoha to be. It just shows how Nanoha can be strict if she needs to, just prefers not to.

My hope is that Teana and Subaru are mature enough to take this lesson and learn from it, because it could definitely go either way. Either they both get pissed at Nanoha and the emo spirals out of control, or they finally snap to and get their act together.

Two other things to note, from the training scenes that we all (myself included) immediately forgot about during the last three minutes of the episode:

1- Subaru makes STAIRS out of Wing Road. I know she's made platforms before, but that really surprised me. I love how other characters can stand on the roads that she makes, it really sets Subaru's 'flying' apart from the regular hovering of the rest of the characters.

2- Teana's well on her way to busting out with some gun katas. Especially the part with her blocking Subaru's punches and pointing the gun, I'm hoping isn't just gonna be another random training exercise. I wanna see Teana have to fend of a close combat fighter by blocking and shooting like that. EPIC.

[dkellis]

Originally Posted by Fuyu no Sora

She may have said that, but she didn't truly fulfill all of the things that would've happened had she been a real enemy. Once again: If Nanoha had acted like their real enemy, Subaru and Teana would both be dead.

I suppose Nanoha's example is not so much the "I'll kill you now" enemy, but more of "I'll destroy all that you love one by one and watch you suffer" type. (Less like Book of Darkness, more like Precia Testarossa. And yes, I know that this classification is debatable.)

Like I said, I'm not sure that this is what Nanoha's actual message is, if she does actually have a message.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by KempoCatholic

Two other things to note, from the training scenes that we all (myself included) immediately forgot about during the last three minutes of the episode:

1- Subaru makes STAIRS out of Wing Road. I know she's made platforms before, but that really surprised me. I love how other characters can stand on the roads that she makes, it really sets Subaru's 'flying' apart from the regular hovering of the rest of the characters.

2- Teana's well on her way to busting out with some gun katas. Especially the part with her blocking Subaru's punches and pointing the gun, I'm hoping isn't just gonna be another random training exercise. I wanna see Teana have to fend of a close combat fighter by blocking and shooting like that. EPIC.

The problem is most of us are running on that last 4 mins for we haven't bothered to watch the eyebleeder... yet. (For me at least )

She did?! Ok I missed that.

et al Grammaton Cleric! That would really pwn.

@dkellis: Nicely phrased, that sums up the arguement neatly.

[Nightengale]

Orange's a bad example as an enemy that would pull that White Devil act...Wait, he's damn good. Since he has no interest in Teana as a subject, he'd bind Subaru and kill Tea, while taking Subaru home for "inspection".

Anyway, Nanoha was a little harsh, but I think she should've acted this way towards them from the very beginning. They weren't just regular trainees, they're actual TSAB soldiers working on frontlines, even if still inexperienced, and any stupid or reckless actions from them will not only endanger themselves, but their teammates and superiors. I blame Nanoha slightly that she never put it into them the "you make one mistake, you die" control of her trained team early on, but aside from that, she's fully justified. It's not like she didn't give Teana a chance, which she totally blew.

Besides, didn't she herself say that the training division she was at is pretty much Spartan too? Makes me wonder how Spartan Nanoha's trainer was...

I hope that Nanoha got legitly 0wned, not by some cheap sneak attack.

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Orange's a bad example as an enemy that would pull that White Devil act...Wait, he's damn good. Since he has no interest in Teana as a subject, he'd bind Subaru and kill Tea, while taking Subaru home for "inspection".

Anyway, Nanoha was a little harsh, but I think she should've acted this way towards them from the very beginning. They weren't just regular trainees, they're actual TSAB soldiers working on frontlines, even if still inexperienced, and any stupid or reckless actions from them will not only endanger themselves, but their teammates and superiors. I blame Nanoha slightly that she never put it into them the "you make one mistake, you die" control of her trained team early on, but aside from that, she's fully justified. It's not like she didn't give Teana a chance, which she totally blew.

Besides, didn't she herself say that the training division she was at is pretty much Spartan too? Makes me wonder how Spartan Nanoha's trainer was...

I hope that Nanoha got legitly 0wned, not by some cheap sneak attack.

Let us pray that it is so. I don't know how they're gonna pull this one off though. I'm hoping for a good and pleasant surprise.

[Avatar_notADV]

I definitely read it as something Nanoha did intentionally.

Subaru does something a bit reckless to try to score on Nanoha - okay, she gets blocked, Nanoha says "hey, that's a bit reckless" rather than shooting her down on approach. What Tia tried, though, was way outside the profile. Not just in a "that was crazy" sense, but in a "you forgot why we're out here in the first place, stupid" sense. Nanoha's already delivered at least one speech to Tia about how she's the marksman and everything - going in with the bayonet isn't just opening her up to attack, but it's kind of ignoring what she's supposed to be doing in the first place.

So that's why Nanoha catches the knife in the hand instead of deflecting (come on, she can block Vita being serious from two directions ten years ago, you think she's being overwhelmed HERE?) By taking the cut, Nanoha's driving home the point that Tiana's completely forgotten the purpose of the exercise, and her role in the combat team.

It could have (should have) stopped there, but Tia's got her head up her rear, and decided to keep going. Very, very bad, for several reasons. Nanoha's still the training instructor, so if she says "you're overdoing it", you probably are. Also, Tiana's charging up her big, I-can't-control-it-well attack to shoot at someone who is standing right next to her partner, who if we remember got clobbered just last episode by Tia screwing up. Finally, Tia's obviously leaving herself wide open and attacking without any thought of defense, directly after Nanoha just pointed out that was a bad thing that is going to get her killed.

So Nanoha goes out of her way to smack Tia with her own technique (that wasn't an Axel Shooter) and gives her a big set of bruises. Well, okay, that's her MO, and it's hardly outside of the military envelope either. I also took the Subaru bind as "don't get in the way", though doubtless there's also a "pay attention" aspect too. If Nanoha's doing this specifically to get through to Tia that going all-out with no defense is only a way to join her brother, it's no good if Subaru hops in the way or anything like that - obviously the problem is with Tia herself rather than Subaru and Tia's teamwork.

So next episode, doubtless we'll see a bummed Tia who's depressed, not just because she lost, but because Nanoha unloaded on her; this is a perfect opportunity for Fate (or maybe Vita) to step in and say "join the club", and explain to Tia that when Nanoha does that, it's because the other person is being stupid and not listening to the good sense coming out of Nanoha's mouth. All that put together might be enough to get Tia's head back together - or rather, we can assume that Tia's not going to get drummed out of the unit at this juncture, and so presumably she WILL get her head back together, and this is the obvious way for it to happen after ep 8. Also it opens up a line of inquiry into Nanoha's own past, which offers opportunity for the flashbacks in the preview...

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Besides, didn't she herself say that the training division she was at is pretty much Spartan too? Makes me wonder how Spartan Nanoha's trainer was...

If you consider all her former opponents as life-combat instructors, I guess that's pretty Spartan to begin with.

And it must be something really hefty, since even RH was damaged as well.

@Avatar_notADV: Sort of like the goalkeeper going up to the front?

[Fuyu no Sora]

Say, I forgot to mention this before, but Teana's brother was a Flight Mage. Anyone know his actual rank?

[Gearhead]

Spoiler:

Consider that her key role models on learning how to teach students how to fight were her father and Kyoya. Japanese sword instruction is NOT at all kind to the pupil. Corporal punishment can be used to correct the form and motion of the pupil, often to the very limits of what the student can physically tolerate... Until they learn the correct way of doing things. Note that Nanoha didn't just let her drop, she lowered her to the ground carefully after introducing her to little tweeting birds via beamspam.

[Estavali]

They mentioned: "Itou Ku-Ei", no?

Ehhh, that's, like, Captain (Flight)?

[Fuyu no Sora]

Originally Posted by Estavali

They mentioned: "Itou Ku-Ei", no?

Ehhh, that's, like, Captain (Flight)?

Nah, actually Lieutenant. Wow, Teana's brother really ranked up fast huh?

[Chaos2Frozen]

Sigh, this is why I hate school on Mondays... No other days has the Thread progress this quickly...