2008-12-14, 22:47 | Link #1721 | ||
Black Dragon
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In the Netherrealm, thinking who to betray next...
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2008-12-14, 23:56 | Link #1722 | ||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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As for being blindsided by the enemy - that's what the enemy does. Also, seriously, which is the higher value target? RF6 or GFHQ? Even watching the series, my bet was on GFHQ; I had a feeling they might go after Vivio, but the main target would be GFHQ. And furthermore, it's only after Vivio was kidnapped that the investigation results got back and revealed that she's a clone of the Sankt Kaiser. Without that knowledge, it didn't make sense to class RF6 as a high value target. Quote:
I do find it rather amusing, however, that when I called him out on being a hypocrite with regards to Nanoha, his only counter was that being half-assed was more hypocritical. But then when one is inherently half-assed since the beginning... "Professor, yes Professor! I'll sit in this corner and SOD half-assedly."
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2008-12-15, 01:07 | Link #1723 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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2) Alternatively, Midchildran architecture can be exoskeletonal, with the "hull" (exterior) of the building being the "strength wall" and most of the rest being non-structural. Quote:
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Besides, having soft/crunchy exteriors may not be all a bad idea in Midchildra, so it might not be "Mid is dumb" at all. Remember that many Middies are mages, and so many would have super strength or speed. Presumably, sometimes, people might use that strength where they shouldn't - say a bar brawl,, family dispute, little kid playing with his magic, people putting on a spurt of super-speed so they aren't late for work ... the list goes on. In these cases, it is hardly unthinkable they might lose control, like Subaru and Teana as they rushed towards the end goal in Ep1, and run themselves into a wall. Or people in a brawl blasting each other (say a criminal blasting a cop) into walls. In such a case, even a few millimeters of give in the wall will significantly prolong the deceleration phase, thus attenuating the peak deceleration and making the whole experience measurably more survivable. Given this reality, it may be that Midchildran construction standards actually require, to the extent it won't fatally compromise the structural strength of a building, incorporation of crumple zones that give way with relative ease on impacts. This may be important to them that they'll accept a higher maintenance requirement on walls or even load limits on floors to ensure this safety. Quote:
You see the can of worms that you open up once you decide which elements of an observation you want to throw out. Quote:
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Operator: "Target A is approaching at 2000km/h!" Shift to Target A. Target A is crawling across the sky. It is taking one minute to get through half the non-panning screen. Scaling it suggests it is moving at maybe 10km/h, max. On the side, other planes and birds overtake target A at more or less realistic speeds. Operator: "Target A is still approaching at 2000km/h!" Shift back to Target A, which is crawling through the other half of the scene... taking it well? Good animator? |
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2008-12-15, 02:00 | Link #1724 | |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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I'mma requote my question just in case it was missed:
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2008-12-15, 02:14 | Link #1725 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Uh... Vivio. The entire GFHQ was a feint. Actually, it kind of surprises me that in all the sequence of events, nobody ever connected the dots. You've got a guy who's going after every relic he can find. Suddenly a little girl turns up chained to a relic... You rush the girl to a chopper Evac and give the Relic to another team... Then the Enemy forces go to town on you with some higher value assets for the first time in who knows how long. The enemy goes after the Relic, but also tries to blow your chopper doing nothing more than Medevac (and not even going anywhere near the actual fighting) out of the sky for no appearant reason... Then later after the fight, you learn that the little girl is a CLONE of some ancient, highly important magic person... You know... just those little details Little girl with relic, she's a clone of the Sainkt Kaiser... the enemy divided a significant portion of its high value assets up in an attempt to capture the relic AND blast her... Uh... V.I.P. anyone? I may not know the details, but I know that she's of some kind of importance to the opposition if only by circumstance. The connections would be enough to warrant suspicion, and if I was expecting an attack at the important function, I would have at least expected more than Token defense requirements on the homefront in case my suspicions were validated. If I were doing any kind of planning, I would have arranged secretly for a convenient trip 'out of town' for the night, perhaps under the pretext of a sleepover or something equally fun for a little kid. Prefferably a location offworld... perhaps to visit 'Uncle Scrya'. "You'll like Yuuno, he's a good friend of mine, and he has lots of neat books to look at." After all, the best defensive location is not heavily fortified... it's the location the Enemy doesn't know you're even at. And what better place to deal with it than to send Vivio offworld to visit Yuuno at the Infinity Library, deep in the middle of 'nowhere' dimensional space? (Considering the main HQ sits litterally, in what amounts to little more than the middle of nowhere in dimensional space... Good luck having the numbers blitz THAT place.) Then when Jail snickers about his oh so perfect decoy operation, and shows off his cyborgs, I end up getting the last laugh when, despite the damage, he comes up short his true objective. Even if I don't know it's his true objective at the time... I can always laugh later. |
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2008-12-15, 04:16 | Link #1727 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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2008-12-15, 04:21 | Link #1728 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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While we discuss access, you might remember that the blast doors slide down in emergencies? So, in your scenario, unless the deviceless Aces are in the same compartment as the assassins, which is unlikely because they don't seem to be in the same compartment as the VIPs in Regius' room, they won't be able to stop them. They would have to grind past the blast doors, made more difficult w/o devices. Meanwhile, the assassins, with lots of firepower, have relatively little trouble blasting through the doors on their own schedule and nobody outside can get in. Result: Aces get slaughtered with the rest. Quote:
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And it is never too late to try. Quote:
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2) If they did a good job with this battle, the "final" battle would be averted or at least substantially delayed. 3) The situation wasn't even that tight in Ep11 and Hayate popped a release. So It is hard to imagine she'd decide different in the more tense Ep16-17. Quote:
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It also means the TSAB got absolutely no trust in its mages. And I thought I was the bleak one on the TSAB... Quote:
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Of course, if the PDS falls, they would be left somewhat naked. But as I've mentioned, the building isn't that large and that tough either, so dispersal under cover is at least arguably a better policy. Unless, of course, the PDS are as open and vulnerable as my opponents are postulating, so enemies will find and neutralize it in seconds. In that case, I'll agree this idea isn't going to work, but that means they failed to maximize their survivability at the design stage, so a tactical error becomes strategic. Quote:
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On the other hand, if the security provided was one based on significant suspicion of your theory... Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-15 at 05:50. |
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2008-12-15, 05:57 | Link #1729 | ||||||||||||||||||
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And you still have to prove she has access to the extra energy that Fate can't use due to the limiter. Otherwise, her ability to fight is marginal at best. Quote:
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Like Avatar mentioned, the training field is not a properly designed defensive position, the base is. RF6's situation is not analogous to Picard's in ST:FC. He used the holodeck to delay the Borg until he could get into a better position. RF6 is already in the best position it can be in during an attack. There's no point in leaving the base for the field's dubious additional cover. And like I said earlier, no matter how long the attack lasted, all we'd get to see are the defenders going down. Really, I think you got so poisoned by your dislike of how RF6 handled themselves at GFHQ that you could only think of their performance at their base as a complete failure, without giving Shamal, Zafira and Vice the credit they were due for its defense. You seem to think they folded in minutes and that if they had followed your plans, they might actually last long enough for help to arrive. Do you really think they're that pathetic? Quote:
Last edited by Jimmy C; 2008-12-15 at 09:45. Reason: Retyped several missing words. |
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2008-12-15, 06:14 | Link #1730 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Hayate was way ahead of you. Quote:
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And no, it's not 'up to me to provide calculations if I want my point proven' because you damn well know that I don't believe in calculations of animation. I'm done playing in your sandbox, Ark. I have finally found a point which proves Subaru's strength and the toughness of the drone. The problem is, it isn't calculatable. You can't count the frames here. And this has you scared, as it's starting to unravel all the calculated points you build up. How is it you called it? Ah yes, 'an observation of the events as they played out' Of course, unlike you who takes one scene and drags it out of proportion, I have looked at the total source material. If I hadn't looked at the manga, I wouldn't have brought up this point, as then the medium would be in your favor. However, Subaru has shown to have strength far above normal humans, and the fact that she slowly drills into the drone says something about it's armor, and it's not negative. No, it's called twisting the evidence to suit your needs, discarding common sense and relying on pure unbased speculation. Quote:
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Save habitat indeed. So in other words, they'd have to practically rebuild their homes after each case of bad weather? And you're seriously believing this? Quote:
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On the other hand, should you take the dare and step out, nothing has changed. After all, the crater was drawn to look cool. What then, do you think, would be the mindset of the animator? Would it be 'hmm, I want the audience to go 'Wow! That enemy is strong! He just kicked Erio in the wall!' or would he think 'hmm, I want them to calculate the speed at which Erio was kicked and decide Mid walls are weak.' It doesn't take half a braincell to realize that the animator was obviously going for the former rather then the later. Quote:
I have canonical evidence to support it. Remember when I asked you for evidence? A line by a character? A side comment in the booklet? A sign by the road saying 'Watch out! Weak concrete!'? You couldn't give me any, because you don't have any. However, my Barrier Jacket claim has been supported by the manga, which blatantly states Barrier Jackets are defensive clothing that generate a Field and Barrier. It has been supported by booklet articles and vocal lines in the anime several times as well. I have support for my claim, whereas you have none. Show me one inch of support, be they booklet, lines or a sign, and I will yield my claim and admit that Mid concrete is weak. Quote:
Cute, but if you reject canon material because you don't like that it doesn't conform to physics, then you can expect me to grind every idea with no canon support until I get a detailed explanation that satisfies me. You can take the easy way out. It's called fluff. And canon. Give me a booklet entry or anything along those lines and you won't hear me complaining. I raised debates the size of our current one on the subject of magic damage, but when magic damage was made canon, I went 'well, I was wrong. Magic damage is canon.' Same thing here. If you can prove, by any form of canon material, lines, booklets, signs, that mid concrete is squishy, I will yield and admit my mistake. As long as you can't, I will stick to the options that canon gave us, rather then dive in unproven speculation. That's... interesting indeed. If no energy is expended to stop a falling object, why does a falling object cause damage when it falls? Quote:
You're getting paranoid here, Ark. Quote:
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Yeah, you're right. Why does your version have the NTSC analog then? Quote:
You don't? Oh well, let me explain you why. You just created a non-existent scenario that matches you bitterness and view of the subject. You clearly stated that birds were overtaking it and 'drawn flying at realistic speeds' regardless that Nanoha, or any other anime for that matter, has no such examples. Now, an existing scene would be that Target A is flying at, say, the standard flying speed of the Nanoha mages. The operator will say "Target A is apraoching at 2000 KM/H!" Of course, the animator won't show Target A being overtaken by birds (why animate birds in the first place?) but when calculated, the frames still won't match up with the speed the operator says. And yet, at that point the target is flying at 2000 KM/H. Why? Because the operator said so. Because the script said so. A script is the core of any media production. Without a script, no media production. Anime, Live Action, Sound Stages, Video Games, Manga, all are born from a script. That is also why the lines of a character are more important then what is being displayed on screen. Because an anime is a visualization of a script. For example, in Season 1 the earth was about to be destroyed. Analysis showed only earthquakes, and yet we as viewers know the earth was about to be destroyed. Why? Because the characters said so. Quote:
Most of your observations rely on hindsight. A lovely thing, but hardly usable at the moment the decision must be made. Let's review: They found Vivio with a Relic case chained to her. This says little, as Relics were smuggled all over the place by various people. That's why the Gadgets come to claim them. All a Relic case being close to Vivio tells them is that she was created by a criminal group Jail, at the point, had expressed no current interest in Artificial Mages. He was focused on Gadgets and Relics. Again, no real reason to suspect him going after Vivio. But here comes the kicker: Prior to her capture, the only interaction showed was Jail's Cyborgs attempting the shoot the heli she was in. Does this prove they didn't want her to fall into TSAB hands? No. Why? Because shooting the heli was only a decoy to allow Lutecia and Agito to escape. So let's look that bit over again. The enemy apparently didn't give a single bit about Vivio, as they just as easily shot the heli she was in to allow a little girl and a Unison Device to escape (remember, nobody except their enemies expected her to survive). After that, Ginga comes back with a report on who that truck carrying her life-pod belongs to. Jail let independent organizations do the cloning, in fact he himself didn't even know of this clone untill after she woke up by his Gadgets coming to say 'hi' (the Gadgets were after the Relics in the truck, not Vivio) so there is no direct trace back to him. Oh, and of course they didn't know Vivio was a clone of the Saint King until after she was kidnapped. So what we have is a little six-year-old girl that was created by an unknown organization for an unknown cause. No direct relationship to Jail can be drawn. They don't know who the girl is, nor whom she was based on. Jail doesn't seem to care about her. Nope, I don't see any reason for the cast to connect the dots, considering many of those dots weren't revealed until after the attack on the TSAB. Last edited by Keroko; 2008-12-15 at 07:51. |
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2008-12-15, 08:49 | Link #1731 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Heavy and immediately arisen is NOT contradictory if you see it from a scientific perspective rather than a intuitive one - given however heavy it is, it clearly has the ability to float and maneuver, so assuming heavy means it has a large antigrav force output. The Force to Weight ratio change between before Subaru sat on it and after will be minimal, because Subaru would be a small fraction of the weight it usually lifts, and it'll immediately recover. In fact, if it is so heavy, it'll be very tough for Subaru's momentum to provide enough vector change to force it to the ground in the first place. However, if it is much lighter than Subaru, its antigrav drive only has a small output, so when Subaru jumps on it, the force to weight ratio is seriously and adversely affected - in other words, it can be successfully pinned down. Think of it this way - it is the difference between an adult jumping onto a kid and a kid jumping onto an adult. Even if the kid knocks the adult down, the adult can get up without too much difficulty because his muscles are strong enough to fight the weight of the light kid. The kid is pinned down by the adult. Quote:
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It is you that is having trouble sorting out your cognitive dissonance b/w the obviously slow speed and the cracked material which you can't break out of your mental schema of it being hard. Quote:
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Try this, Keroko. Don't throw away any elements in that observation. Analyze it with the VELOCITY having to be exactly true and the apparent DAMAGE also being exactly true. What do you get? Quote:
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Of course, most fans are a bit hypocritical this way - they want their anime to be powerful and l33t, they want to hear how analysis proves the l33tness of their world. They don't want to hear the opposite. Quote:
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For a diversion from visuals, try this. Don't worry this time it is a more realistic scenario. Apparently, it was originally planned for Hayate to speak Kansai-ben, and her seiyuu changed it into Kobe-ben because it is softer (and I agree, it was the nicest Kansaish-ben I've heard in a long time). If the core script wasn't changed from its original Kansai-ben, then is Hayate a Kansai-ben speaker or Kobe-ben? Can you even imagine Hayate now in Kansai-ben? Quote:
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The fact is nevertheless, b/w Nanoha and Fate, you just can't get the idea the limiter is all that serious or hard to take off. Quote:
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And the base was a building hardly what one can call a "defensive position". Further, here's another point. We tend to assume so far that when the power goes out, the pseudomatter in the game field dissolves pretty much instantly. However, is that necessarily the case? Pseudomatter is shown to hold together even in total-AMF cutoff situations - in other words mana resupply and linking is cut. Not only that, the pseudomatter should be eroding not only due to lack of flow, but from the constant bombardment of AMF emissions. Yet it never ever seems to even get damaged (however amusing dissolving Barrier Jackets might be to the audience...) Maybe it won't last forever, but remember, the whole battle lasted for less than 20 minutes. If that stuff keeps at least some cohesion without power for 20 minutes they win, and the limited evidence suggests I can get my 20 at least. Such a capacity will also guard against other outages of the PDS. Quote:
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2008-12-15, 09:22 | Link #1732 | ||||
"Begin, the operation!"
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They had a sniper at RF6 for fuck sakes. Quote:
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2008-12-15, 10:39 | Link #1733 | ||
Black Dragon
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In the Netherrealm, thinking who to betray next...
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2008-12-15, 10:52 | Link #1734 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Normally you'd say 'put the sniper on the roof' but in this case all enemies could fly, which made being on the roof a strategically unsafe position, rather then a safe one. No stuff to hide behind. |
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2008-12-15, 11:28 | Link #1735 | ||
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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"But they fought the Numbers in Episode 11! They did know of them!" Not all of them. You still have the issue of unknown strengths and inadequate data to represent an attacking force if you don't know about the sum total of the enemy forces. This is part of the reason why Jail was able to succeed in his HQ attack; the defenders had inadequate knowledge of the opposing forces and so were taken by surprise by Lutecia's "teleport the gadgets into point blank range" trick--among many other such instances--and routed.
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2008-12-15, 12:29 | Link #1736 | |||
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I posit that the reason Ark hasn't replied to this yet is very simple:
No such anime exists. As for slow moving magic attacks, I would also like to point out that it is a real world effect that incoming tracers appear to have variable speed: from a distance, the tracer appears to crawl across the sky... then it gets closer and accelerates like fuck. Quote:
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Besides, who's to say that Vice wasn't sniping from a window first, before being forced to pull back to cover the rest of the support staff once everyone else got pwnt? (At least TF6 will have some backup for him, as well as Farmgirl Medic.) But we're judging him too hard. He's not Hathcock... and even Hathcock knew when to call for artillery. Quote:
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-12-15 at 12:42. |
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2008-12-15, 13:01 | Link #1737 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Keroko, as usual, I wind up doing your calcs for you, again. As usual, the answers weren't what you wanted, again. Here it is:
http://arkhangelsk.110mb.com/MGLN/SS/manga/p99.html But don't lose hope yet. I might have made a math error. |
2008-12-15, 13:13 | Link #1738 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Yeah, like assuming that the image was of Tea's highest altitude.
Or that Subaru straining a *bit* at the very beginning of her military training = Subaru straining at the beginning of strikerS with a high-quality device. Right. Or, of course, *assuming that the mangaka cared about such things*. and all of that is assuming you calc was correct, which i doubt. Blah. |
2008-12-15, 13:28 | Link #1739 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Not to say it's not a bad idea, but I would agree with them that it's not important enough to animate. Quote:
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2008-12-15, 13:33 | Link #1740 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Ah, I miss Law... nah. Not really. But it's usefull, that it is. I also find it ironically hilarious that the "Math Professor of Nanoha" is admitting that math is not his strong point.
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