Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Dawnbringerz]

Going through the episodes, I still couldn't find where QB isn't speaking the truth in this series.

Nothing that comes out of QB mouth is false.
His words can be regarded as truth,
and can be used as a basis in later discussion / decision making.

However, taking only the truth that is provided by QB at that moment to discuss or make decisions will almost always leads to an irrelevant conclusion / bad decision, because there are still some more truths that he hasn't revealed yet. (e.g. Making contract for a wish without knowing that Magical Girls will turn into witches.)

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well... there's a reason that I didn't write down any pre-airing predictions this time: Because I was honestly unsure where the story was about to go. And it won't get very much easier in ep10.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around a couple of things and sort the clues out, but I'll dump some of my near-unprocessed thoughts here.

1) The Entropy story doesn't wash. I've said it before, but just because QB was trying to avoid direct lies in the past doesn't mean that he couldn't do it if he deemed it necessary. I suspect that this is where we are now - his actions and deceptions have become untenable, so he's dishing up a huge confusing lie to stay in business. And coincidentally, the remaining offer ("die for the sake of the universe") hits Madoka's weakest point: Her readiness to consider sacrifice for the sake of others.

2) One of the reasons why I'm more convinced than ever that QB is lying is that in this episode, he claimed to be unable to understand human emotions. This is patently untrue. Through the entire show, he was always EXACTLY there where he could hope to coax a contract out of people. Remember Sayaka? He claimed to walk off to find other girls, and all of a sudden, Kamijou has a nervous breakdown, and QB is just conveniently around to facilitate Sayaka's impulse contract. I don't believe in this coincidence: He knew how to use Sayaka's feelings to snare her. He knew how to present his case to girls for maximum effect. He knew what to conceal, and how to deflect questions which would unmask him. And now, when there's no credible defense remaining, he's dishing out a confusing BS story with tons of logical holes as final pitch.

3) Based on QB's story, "they" (interesting how easily he switched from "I" to "we") "found" the power of emotion. But how likely is it that anyone would "find" a cyclic system like the MG one? Who grants the wish - the system or someone else? If someone else: Why would the wish affect what magic the MGs would wield? All of this doesn't fit at all. The way I see it, the MG system was _engineered_. A purposeful creation as means to an end. Not "found".

4) Sayaka/Kyoko final scene: Just showing a bright "boom" means for me that it will be relevant later in the story what happened there. Otherwise, we'd have death/disappearing/transformation animations. They're out of the picture for now, but they're not out of the story. We will see more than this.

I think that you don't have to understand human emotion to know how humans will react.

I believe that Kyubey has been doing this for years. THat the first time he tried to contract a girl, he told him all the reasons for doing it and they either laughed in his face or ran away in terror. I believe that after many failures, he changed his tactics, learning what to say and what not to say. I think the current system, like many systems, is a product of trial and error on his and his people's part to get the sentient cattle known as humans to act a certain way.

[venk]

People trapped with "lie" word,

hiding or not telling important and critical information as part of contract agreement is just as bad as lying.

[akei1]

Originally Posted by jeroz

For all we know, the universe might be doomed the moment madoka chose the red ribbon instead of the yellow one.

At first, I thought you wrote "redpill instead of the bluepill" (from the movie Matrix)

Originally Posted by Sageblink

Call me heartless, but I wasn't very emo on Kyoko sacrifice. On this point too, don't know why. I actually like the character, so I don't understand why it didn't bother me. Maybe because it was her decision, not something falling on her. If Sayake killed her, it wouldn't have make the plot better, but i think i would be a little bit more disturbed.

It was probably the music playing for that scene. It wasn't as sad relative to the other music in the show. People could probably dance to it in a ball room. It fits Saya's theme well though.

[Funkatron]

Here is a wierd crazy theory I just had.

I think that Kyubey learned how to lie by omission from interacting with humans.

If Kyubey is part of a hive mind race, then there is no reason for him to have lies. As a logical race, they seem to go straight to the point. Dealing with an emotional race like the humans, however, made them learn how to omit things. They know that certain facts will upset the emotional meat bags that we are so why not leave it out?

[garbage]

wow suddenly it turned sci fi ,unexpected it is. ALIENS!!!
so it's matrix style turn humans into batteries to bypass entropy, don't know yet what to make of that. and QB really is farming witches , and seems like he and his ilk were the ones who started it too. and it's official he never cared about fighting witches to protect humans, he couldn't care less. literally. all he wants is his energy. and it's inevitable that MG will turn into witches one way or another, that how QB & ilk made the system. to gather greater energy.

correct me if i'm wrong but i haven't really seen anyone predicting aliens here. makes sense tho that to a primitive civilization ( as we are to the aliens) any higher science will seem like magic.

why just girls. mmm no answer for that one yet , tho i'll go with the reasoning that adults just wont take no crap from QB so he only goes for young gullible targets. think thou the Aliens are going about it the wrong way. here they find a completely green source of energy and they go about antagonizing the goose that lays the golden egg. might have been better for them to find some way to cooperate.who knows Love might just be a more powerful source of energy than grief.

and walpurgis is a witch a pretty powerful one, i guess thats the one from the ep1 dream.No reveals yet about homura...except confirmed definitely time stop power.

so sad for kyoko, just as she was getting better, friendlier, mami all over again...
at least it was great final attack, using all her magic, she looked so cute with her hair down , especiall when she was kissing the gem and releasing it.. ... so now were full circle back to ep.1 dream with only homura left as MG,walpurgis coming up....and "just as planned" for QB. damn that weasel.

miss the ending song, any reason it wasn't shown?

some initial thoughts before i read the thread. OMG already 242 replies wahh

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

They know that certain facts will upset the emotional meat bags that we are so why not leave it out?

Because that's like, totally evul and stuff.

I watched the episode again and I don't know why QB would be lying. Of course the entropy theory might seem weak, but we have miracles and magic happening all over the place so... I don't think it's a competition of what's believable or not. The moment they said we have souls, I was ready for practically anything.

At this point I'm even ready for a Clannad ending.

[Mentar]

Seriously, this boggles my mind. I should have been prepared for it, but turns out I'm not.

People have been taking what QB said at face value time and time and time again. They've been totally fooled 3-4 times by now. Still, they maintain "oooh, but he's never been found lying" and thus continue to take his garbage at face value ... and now, he's been telling a hair-raising story about aliens, entropy and whatnot. AND PEOPLE ARE STILL GOBBLING IT UP LIKE MANNA FROM HEAVEN! Because this confirmed treacherous murdering rat DOES NOT LIE!

I bet that if Urobuchi was reading these forums, he'd have a ball with you. "How far can I push this bull until they realize they're played for a sucker?"

Well then - fine. He's an alien and tries to save the universe's entropy "problems" ^_^ ... because he says so, and he doesn't lie.

Un-friggen-believable.

[ninryu]

Spoiler for ep 9:

NOOO! Kyouko! ;_; why, Urobuchi, why?! I swear if this anime won't have a good ending..
I completely knew Kyouko was going to die, but heck, my heart is freakin' broken.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Seriously, this boggles my mind. I should have been prepared for it, but turns out I'm not.

People have been taking what QB said at face value time and time and time again. They've been totally fooled 3-4 times by now. Still, they maintain "oooh, but he's never been found lying" and thus continue to take his garbage at face value ... and now, he's been telling a hair-raising story about aliens, entropy and whatnot. AND PEOPLE ARE STILL GOBBLING IT UP LIKE MANNA FROM HEAVEN! Because this confirmed treacherous murdering rat DOES NOT LIE!

I bet that if Urobuchi was reading these forums, he'd have a ball with you. "How far can I push this bull until they realize they're played for a sucker?"

Well then - fine. He's an alien and tries to save the universe's entropy "problems" ^_^ ... because he says so, and he doesn't lie.

Un-friggen-believable.

so what if he's actually lying? what are you going to do with it?
Dude, i don't give a **** if he's Dr Manhattan or what. The fact that he dismisses the lives of those girls is enough to make me want to burn him on a stick. It's not like I will say he's the good guy now that he claim to be saving the universe. Harvesting the lives of the innocent is still a hateful action.

[Triple_R]

Well, presuming that every last word that Kyubey uttered in this episode is the truth, at least as he sees it...

This story is now basically about a highly advanced alien race, lacking emotions, who are turning human teenage girls into sentient cattle (good term for whoever coined it first) in order to stave off or entirely eliminate something that won't be a pressing issue for a very, very, very, very long time (universal entropy). Kyubey himself, it should be noted, pretty much argued that we humans will be intergalactic explorers by the time universal entropy is a pressing issue. So, at a absolute bare minimum, we're talking several hundreds of years here.

To achieve their goals, Kyubey and his people play on human hopes and dreams, and coldly manipulate humans into taking actions that will bring them to a grizzly and tragic end (i.e. becoming a witch).

Human governments could legitimately consider the actions of Kyubey and his race as being an act of war.

Madoka is right. Kyubey is "the enemy". He has made himself "the enemy" by essentially looting and pillaging humanity itself. Sayaka didn't sign up to be forcefed into the dilithium chamber of some alien contraption designed to stave off entropy. She signed up to fight witches and help Kamijo. She was totally and utterly deceived, and to fault her at all, really, seems misplaced to me.

There's no greek tragedy here, just victims of a carefully concocted and coordinated alien plot which treats the human race as lesser beings who's only value is to die for a highly dubious end goal. This is certainly no way to make first contact.


Well, I hope that the human resistance goes well. Do us proud, Madoka.

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by Mentar

GOBBLING IT UP LIKE MANNA FROM HEAVEN

I would like some of that. Bet it tastes.. like heaven

"How far can I push this bull until they realize they're played for a sucker?"

I wish I had your strong resolve but QB's eyes and fluffy tail have completely mesmerized me. How could this cute ambassador of salvation be lying ? The universe needs saving and Madoka's fit for the job !

This thread is dangerous; I'm getting too anxious for next episode.

[Sheba]

If all else fails, wait for a Tardis to pop into Madokaverse. The idea of a whole civilization of QBs driving the universe to an early death is not going to sit well with The Doctor.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Seriously, this boggles my mind. I should have been prepared for it, but turns out I'm not.

People have been taking what QB said at face value time and time and time again. They've been totally fooled 3-4 times by now. Still, they maintain "oooh, but he's never been found lying" and thus continue to take his garbage at face value ... and now, he's been telling a hair-raising story about aliens, entropy and whatnot. AND PEOPLE ARE STILL GOBBLING IT UP LIKE MANNA FROM HEAVEN! Because this confirmed treacherous murdering rat DOES NOT LIE!

I bet that if Urobuchi was reading these forums, he'd have a ball with you. "How far can I push this bull until they realize they're played for a sucker?"

Well then - fine. He's an alien and tries to save the universe's entropy "problems" ^_^ ... because he says so, and he doesn't lie.

Un-friggen-believable.

It's not so much that people are saying he can't lie, it's more like what specific lies are you talking about because he's seemingly answered every question put to him truthfully. It's like saying you hate the red tutu he's always wearing, without ever showing him wearing a red tutu.

[sa547]

Been up for half a day reading the threads, and thus I come to the conclusion that it took a catlike alien to stir up a storm... It'll be nice if only Alf could crash the party and go after QB (as Melmac folk consider cats as a delicacy).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, I hope that the human resistance goes well. Do us proud, Madoka.

Sounds like she could do an Independence Day once she makes up her mind and guts. You go, girl!

Originally Posted by Sheba

If all else fails, wait for a Tardis to pop into Madokaverse. The idea of a whole civilization of QBs driving the universe to an early death is not going to sit well with The Doctor.

A great idea for a crossover fanfic! If only Doctor Who gets to be regularly aired in my country... :|

[klare]

who would have expect alien? one step closer to Nanoha settings

now with Mami, Sayaka and Kyoko gone, they are still showing us the happy OP scenes...

i would say the biggest specualtion should be will Madoka become the most power MG and witch?

my prediction: the beginning scene (Madoka's dream) in eps 1 will come true, she cannot stand to lose anybody anymore and become a MG, thus Homura and the world is saved in the end

[Dawnbringerz]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Seriously, this boggles my mind. I should have been prepared for it, but turns out I'm not.

People have been taking what QB said at face value time and time and time again. They've been totally fooled 3-4 times by now. Still, they maintain "oooh, but he's never been found lying" and thus continue to take his garbage at face value ... and now, he's been telling a hair-raising story about aliens, entropy and whatnot. AND PEOPLE ARE STILL GOBBLING IT UP LIKE MANNA FROM HEAVEN! Because this confirmed treacherous murdering rat DOES NOT LIE!

I bet that if Urobuchi was reading these forums, he'd have a ball with you. "How far can I push this bull until they realize they're played for a sucker?"

Well then - fine. He's an alien and tries to save the universe's entropy "problems" ^_^ ... because he says so, and he doesn't lie.

Un-friggen-believable.

Each one of us hold different values. What you deem fool, might not be seen the same way by other people.

Of all the Magical Girls conditions QB revealed little by little
1. Turns into Magical Girl and gain magical ability
2. Get a wish granted
3. Fight Witches
4. Soul turned into soul gem
5. Eventually turns into witch
6. Create a large amount of energy to save the universe
If I were Sayaka and make a contract with QB, I would be unsatisfied with only #5. But if I knew #5, I would probably just act like Kyouko in the beginning -- try gathering grief seed to continue survive as long as possible. I'm fooled? so what? I got my wish that I cannot achieve even if I try for the rest of my lifetime granted. I even get to save the universe in the process.

Sayaka is better off having her wish granted, and be content with her zombie form. Live with Kamijou as a zombie isn't that bad, really. She should just accept it instead of going on rampage and eventually drag Kyouko down with her.


It's just like signing up for a telephone contract. I got my phone and ability to make calls and send mails. When I got charged for some extra fee later, I can't call the salesman evil that he didn't tell me all the detail of the contract, because it's all written on a large paper which I didn't bother reading nor asking the salesperson about it. In the end, I got my phone, and cannot cancel my contract, so I just have to continue paying the original fee and the extra fee. Without the contract, I wouldn't be able to have a phone in the first place, and that is more troublesome than paying the fee.


Sayaka is a fool, and QB is not evil from my perspective. (He's just a salesman, doing his job. duh!)


Of course, I might change my mind later if QB reveal the next #7 truth and it turns out to be worse than #5 that I couldn't accept it.

[applejuice]

Just found it, but there is some serious holes with Kyuube's argument.

We all know if Madoka becomes a witch, it will be powerful as fuck. However, in order for QB to 'INCUBATE' that power, it has to become a 'grief seed'. Who's going to do it? Possible answers that explains this is;
1. QB 'ALREADY' has that power to convert witch into the grief seed. He is just not doing it and leave it naturally so that Mahou Shoujo can become witch through despair.
2. QB's actual intention is make Madoka witch which cannot be defeated by anything, thus destroying the entire earth OR universe, instead of saving it.

Question chains up. How strong is that Walpu-whatever-night witch, isn't that witch enough to keep the entropy right? Is universe that much unstable to force QB to recruit Madoka as fast as he can? AND Most of all, WHY HOMURA'S DESPERATELY TRYING TO STOP IT? Why Madoka becoming mahou shoujo so important if it was just all about mere emotion-battery energy source?

To sum up, there is definitely something that is bigger than what Kyuube said. There are just too much baits and holes everywhere that makes QB's words mismatching to the situation.

Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz

Sayaka is a fool, and QB is not evil from my perspective. (He's just a salesman, doing his job. duh!)

The better words to describe is;
Sayaka is naive. Definitely not a fool, as all Sayaka's decision was forced by situation.
If QB isn't evil, the word 'PSYCHOPATH' its much more suitable for him. And as I said above, emotional battery is definitely unsatisfying answer, unless it is just Homura being OCD.

[Doddler]

Originally Posted by creb

And, while this probably should have been said last episode, I totally do not get why Homura was unable to time stop when wrapped in ribbons or a hold by Kyoko.

If she was wrapped in ribbons, stopping time doesn't break her free at all. Same thing with Kyoko, if she stops time while Kyoko is holding onto her, Kyoko doesn't stop at all, which defeats the whole purpose of stopping time. The time stop is almost Homura's entire ability, she creates a variety of weapons (guns and grenades) and can stop time, but beyond those she doesn't appear to have any other abilities. It makes sense now that when she was bound by Mami, there really is no way she could have gotten out, her power doesn't really give her the ability to get free. She's only been strong to this point because she's smart about using her ability, but otherwise she's pretty weak.

[Stefkov]

Is there a chance that Walpurgis night is actually the night that Madoka becomes a witch (and also the scene at the beginning of ep 1)? QB wants Madoka to turn into one and Walpurgis night is fast approaching.
I'm not sure about the Faust stuff that I've read in previous threads but this just came to me now.

I do hope some more information comes from the Kyouko & Sayaka stuff. I'm not convinced that it all just ends with Kyouko sacrificing herself but (it looked like) she did break her soul gem to release an immense amount of power.

As for QB. I'm now unsure what to think of him. At first I thought that he was emotionless, he only did things that had a beneficial outcome but now I don't know. I can get behind the creatures from across the Universe stuff because, well, why shouldn't I expect something like that?
Man, I'm really interested in seeing where this goes and what happens.