The Second Battle of Orb

[PzIVf3]

It seems some of us has forgotten that Cagalli signed a treaty between the EAF that would create themselves no longer a neutral but a puppet of EAF. Has anyone watch the Stargazer ep.3 the TV news broadcast shows the image of Orb after battle and ruins of Zaft colonies the lady reporters summarize the story reports its says The war between the EAF (take note: Cagalli signed a treaty) and ZAFT shifts to space following the escape of Logos leader Djibril from the Orb Union on Earth.

[4Tran]

What Cagalli was pressured into signing was an alliance with the Earth Alliance. She never actually managed to do so, since Kira spirited her away. It was Yuna who seized power and allied Orb with the EA, and it was he who declared war upon PLANT. While Orb was a puppet of the Seirans, it was never a puppet of the EA.

Regardless of the details, Orb was at war with PLANT for the majority of the show.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

It seems some of us has forgotten that Cagalli signed a treaty between the EAF that would create themselves no longer a neutral but a puppet of EAF. Has anyone watch the Stargazer ep.3 the TV news broadcast shows the image of Orb after battle and ruins of Zaft colonies the lady reporters summarize the story reports its says The war between the EAF (take note: Cagalli signed a treaty) and ZAFT shifts to space following the escape of Logos leader Djibril from the Orb Union on Earth.

I just have to wonder it seems like you think the biggest crime is Orb fighting Zaft?

Zaft where the villains in both series, it was only after Lacus takes over that Zaft plans for world domination ends.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I just have to wonder it seems like you think the biggest crime is Orb fighting Zaft?

Zaft where the villains in both series, it was only after Lacus takes over that Zaft plans for world domination ends.

How can you proved the Zaft is the villians they on defensive act of aggression and some natural seek protection from the brutal EAF that the Zaft has huge credibility of public trust. Just because you are the viewer of the scene u can see all the Gilbert manipulation lies and propaganda advantage but not the public viewer itself.

[4Tran]

It's a little unfair to claim that PLANT (ZAFT is only the military arm, dammit) was the villain of both Seed and Destiny. However, it's quite fair to assign that title to Patrick Zala and Gilbert Durandal. While this assignment is due to their actions, I would hesitate to say that PLANT's invasion of Orb is necessarily one that makes Durandal a villain.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

How can you proved the Zaft is the villians they on defensive act of aggression and some natural seek protection from the brutal EAF that the Zaft has huge credibility of public trust. Just because you are the viewer of the scene u can see all the Gilbert manipulation lies and propaganda advantage but not the public viewer itself.

In real life rarely do you get a hero and villain situation when it comes to war, its in Orbs best interest to fight Zaft, the people will understand that.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What Cagalli was pressured into signing was an alliance with the Earth Alliance. She never actually managed to do so, since Kira spirited her away. It was Yuna who seized power and allied Orb with the EA, and it was he who declared war upon PLANT. While Orb was a puppet of the Seirans, it was never a puppet of the EA.

Regardless of the details, Orb was at war with PLANT for the majority of the show.

The council fears of possible treat if they not signed the Earth Alliance thus it will repeatedly led through there destruction so they pressured on Cagalli with a tough
decision to make. Its not Yuna who declared war at PLANT they've been following the treaty of the Earth Alliance thus they are the puppets of EAF.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

In real life rarely do you get a hero and villain situation when it comes to war, its in Orbs best interest to fight Zaft, the people will understand that.

You will create misguided war like what the Americans did at Iraq which they have no proof of evidence of weapon mass of destruction.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

You will create misguided war like what the Americans did at Iraq which they have no proof of evidence of weapon mass of destruction.

I don't understand how this issue applies, since it was PLANT who invaded Orb.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Neku

I don't understand how this issue applies, since it was PLANT who invaded Orb.

Think like BinLaden (Djibril) the mastermind of 9/11 and he's hiding at Afgahnistan (Orb). The Americans (Zaft) ultimatum demand to turnover. But the negotiable been rejected by the Taliban (Seirans respond lies he's not here) that would be enraged to authorize to attack. Will you claimed the American (Zaft) as the invader that has global international reason across the earth to hunt down the Most Wanted man?

[Miri_Haptism]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

ZAFT claims to seek peace, while expanding their military power to the point that it is obviously made for the purpose of destruction rather than self-defense. And thus, the three powers of the Gundam SEED Universe will not be able to work together.

......... ZAFT wants PEACE their not searchin for Military power to destruct things!! Where did you got that from?? ZAFT always has to defend itself against the EA who always attack them!! what else can ZAFT do then produce weapons to protect themselves?? >___<

Besides.....ORB should learn not to side with both Factions....yet they always end up that way *sigh*

[Neku]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Think like BinLaden (Djibril) the mastermind of 9/11 and he's hiding at Afgahnistan (Orb). The Americans (Zaft) ultimatum demand to turnover. But the negotiable been rejected by the Taliban (Seirans respond lies he's not here) that would be enraged to authorize to attack. Will you claimed the American (Zaft) as the invader that has global international reason across the earth to hunt down the Most Wanted man?

So exactly what does that have to do with the afore mentioned 'weapon mass of destruction'?

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

To be fair, PLANT was already at war with Orb, and they are thus perfectly justified in their invasion. Likewise though, Orb is also perfectly justified in doing whatever they can to destroy PLANT's forces and their capability to fight. One of the things I found most appealing about the geopolitics in Seed Destiny was that most of the actions of the belligerents are justifiable to one degree or another.

True. Which now brings up the question, does Durandal truly wish to capture Djibril? Or to conquer ORB? And as far as I know, ORB themselves had never launched a purely offensive campaign against PLANT. They only acted as support for the EA forces. And at that time, the EA forces was a spent force. So, in reality, even if ZAFT had left ORB alone, they would not really be threatened. Especially because Cagalli was already about to return to ORB anyway and would prolly capture Djibril on her own accord.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's not quite fair. Djibril's presence had no effect on the construction of REQUIEM, so it would have been ready to hit PLANT regardless. There's plenty of anti-Coordinator sentiment among those running REQUIEM, so someone was certain to fire it off sooner or later.

Yes. But had Djibril not convinced them to risk everything and fire it, I don't think they would have fired, considering all their main forces in Earth was scrapped and that they would have to fight with ZAFT's main forces in space. Which still had the likes of Yzak, Dearka, and Shiho .. .

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Think like BinLaden (Djibril) the mastermind of 9/11 and he's hiding at Afgahnistan (Orb). The Americans (Zaft) ultimatum demand to turnover. But the negotiable been rejected by the Taliban (Seirans respond lies he's not here) that would be enraged to authorize to attack. Will you claimed the American (Zaft) as the invader that has global international reason across the earth to hunt down the Most Wanted man?

Djibril did not do terrorism. He engaged ZAFT in military combat. And still manage to lose, given all his resources. So he runs to ORB, the last remaining ally of EA in Earth. And they say that ORB does not have him. Now pay close attention. THEY DID NOT REJECT THE NEGOTIATION. THEY SAID THAT HE IS NOT THERE. Sure, it may be an obvious lie. But ZAFT so kindly did not even bother to point that out. And INVADED them. And destroyed every single thing they could lay their eyes on. Good huh>

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

The council fears of possible treat if they not signed the Earth Alliance thus it will repeatedly led through there destruction so they pressured on Cagalli with a tough
decision to make. Its not Yuna who declared war at PLANT they've been following the treaty of the Earth Alliance thus they are the puppets of EAF.

It wasn't the council that felt threatened - they were all gung ho for joining up, and the Seirans in particualr were very friendly with the EA. Moreover, there isn't the slightest sign that Orb was a puppet of the EA.

For that matter, you seem to have a distorted view of what an alliance entails: country isn't necessarily obligated into going to war with its ally's enemies. History is replete with examples of this. The creators of Destiny seem to understand this, so you should at least learn more about geopolitics before you criticize them on this score.

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Think like BinLaden (Djibril) the mastermind of 9/11 and he's hiding at Afgahnistan (Orb). The Americans (Zaft) ultimatum demand to turnover. But the negotiable been rejected by the Taliban (Seirans respond lies he's not here) that would be enraged to authorize to attack. Will you claimed the American (Zaft) as the invader that has global international reason across the earth to hunt down the Most Wanted man?

Your analogy is stretched to the breaking point: Djibril was the effective leader of a country at war with PLANT, and Orb was a country at war with PLANT. PLANT certainly had a reason to invade Orb, but Orb had no reason to allow it to do so.

Originally Posted by Miri_Haptism

......... ZAFT wants PEACE their not searchin for Military power to destruct things!! Where did you got that from?? ZAFT always has to defend itself against the EA who always attack them!! what else can ZAFT do then produce weapons to protect themselves?? >___<

That was merely an excuse, and their actions belied their stated intentions.

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

True. Which now brings up the question, does Durandal truly wish to capture Djibril? Or to conquer ORB? And as far as I know, ORB themselves had never launched a purely offensive campaign against PLANT. They only acted as support for the EA forces. And at that time, the EA forces was a spent force. So, in reality, even if ZAFT had left ORB alone, they would not really be threatened. Especially because Cagalli was already about to return to ORB anyway and would prolly capture Djibril on her own accord.

Did Durandal himself want to capture Djibril? No, he didn't. He had far more to gain by having Djibril around - any damage he managed to inflict on PLANT would also give Durandal greater justification for extreme responses. It's effectively Naomi Campbell's "Shock Doctorine" in anime form. The invasion of Orb itself is a good example: Durandal had suggested that he was opposed to unnecessary offensive moves on the part of ZAFT, so it would have been difficult to justify an attack on Orb. Djibril's presence gave him the opportunity to remove Orb as a factor that had the potential of upsetting his plans.

It's also worth noting that Durandal's goals were not really the same as PLANT's goals. PLANT certainly would have wanted to capture Djibril

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Yes. But had Djibril not convinced them to risk everything and fire it, I don't think they would have fired, considering all their main forces in Earth was scrapped and that they would have to fight with ZAFT's main forces in space. Which still had the likes of Yzak, Dearka, and Shiho .. .

The troops in charge of REQUIEM were all fanatics to begin with, and in their minds, there'd be nothing to lose by pasting the PLANT colonies. Keep in mind that they hated Coordinators, and that ZAFT wasn't particularly well known for mercy (see Gibraltar).

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Djibril did not do terrorism. He engaged ZAFT in military combat. And still manage to lose, given all his resources. So he runs to ORB, the last remaining ally of EA in Earth. And they say that ORB does not have him. Now pay close attention. THEY DID NOT REJECT THE NEGOTIATION. THEY SAID THAT HE IS NOT THERE. Sure, it may be an obvious lie. But ZAFT so kindly did not even bother to point that out. And INVADED them. And destroyed every single thing they could lay their eyes on. Good huh>

There never was any real negotiation. The timeline was: PLANT demanded that Djibril be turned over, Yuna said that he wasn't there, and PLANT invaded right afterwards without so much as giving a response.

[Ichimaru]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

EDIT: Almost forgot.. By the end of Gundam SEED Destiny, ORB gets two extra mobile suits: Akatsuki piloted by Captain Mu La Flaga and Strike Rouge by Representative Cagalli. That makes 3 mobile suits including the Strike Freedom on ORB's side. (^-^)

Mu La Flaga is biggest bs pilot plot ive ever seen, the dude was a scrub of a pilot in SEED, and then in DESTINY his on the same playing field with Athrun/kira/shinn...overrated

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

Mu La Flaga is biggest bs pilot plot ive ever seen, the dude was a scrub of a pilot in SEED, and then in DESTINY his on the same playing field with Athrun/kira/shinn...overrated

Eh I'm not sure how you can judge his piloting skills by destroying some nameless CE grunts.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

Mu La Flaga is biggest bs pilot plot ive ever seen, the dude was a scrub of a pilot in SEED, and then in DESTINY his on the same playing field with Athrun/kira/shinn...overrated

Mu La Flaga has always been on Kira, and Athrun's level, the only problem is that his always given inferior mechas. If you compare the way Mu uses Strike Gundam to the way Kira used Strike Gundam its apparent that Mu is the better pilot.

Once Mu was given a mecha worthy of him he was finally able to show off what he can do.

I consider Mu La Flaga to be the best pilot in the entire series, he shot down 5 ZAFT mobile Suits before the series began using only a Moebius Zero.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Djibril did not do terrorism. He engaged ZAFT in military combat. And still manage to lose, given all his resources. So he runs to ORB, the last remaining ally of EA in Earth. And they say that ORB does not have him. Now pay close attention. THEY DID NOT REJECT THE NEGOTIATION. THEY SAID THAT HE IS NOT THERE. Sure, it may be an obvious lie. But ZAFT so kindly did not even bother to point that out. And INVADED them. And destroyed every single thing they could lay their eyes on. Good huh>

Can't you read the close parenthesis sentence?

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Mu La Flaga has always been on Kira, and Athrun's level, the only problem is that his always given inferior mechas. If you compare the way Mu uses Strike Gundam to the way Kira used Strike Gundam its apparent that Mu is the better pilot.

Once Mu was given a mecha worthy of him he was finally able to show off what he can do.

I consider Mu La Flaga to be the best pilot in the entire series, he shot down 5 ZAFT mobile Suits before the series began using only a Moebius Zero.

I agree with you.I'm big fan of Mwu,yeah he need a kickass MS maybe a Strike E will do with some awesome striker pack.
The way he using his Moebius Zero make watch Seed until now.See how Mwu skill give Buster gundam pilot some hard time.

Anyway I think Durandal is like Emperor Palpatine. He make Canard Pars want to kill Kira Yamato & devise some scheme to be a ruler CE world with "Destiny Plan". Thank god he's dead.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by RAVNEN

I agree with you.I'm big fan of Mwu,yeah he need a kickass MS maybe a Strike E will do with some awesome striker pack.
The way he using his Moebius Zero make watch Seed until now.See how Mwu skill give Buster gundam pilot some hard time.

Anyway I think Durandal is like Emperor Palpatine. He make Canard Pars want to kill Kira Yamato & devise some scheme to be a ruler CE world with "Destiny Plan". Thank god he's dead.

I would have liked a Canard vs. Kira fight. (the VA has a lot of work to do, since he's doing both XD)

For Mu, give him a Strike (E if you want) and give him a Gunbarrel striker.