Angel Beats! generic discussion

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Hedd

To be fair, Tenshi's "assault" on the Guild didn't appear to be provoked. I'm sure there are alot of grey areas yet to be pointed out.

I dunno, i would say that burrowing a huge, death ridden cave under her school with a weapons factory on the far end (weapons she constantly gets shot with) falls under the "provocation" category

Overall it is hard to say for now, but i am still inclined to believe that SSS are in the wrong here (I am going with the assumption this indeed is "purgatory" of sorts and they are indeed dead, not some matrix-like world, for the sake of argument) and ultimately barking up the wrong tree so to speak. While it isn't hard to see why Yuri would be insurmountably upset at how her childhood went, and lashing out over it at the perceived figure of authority would be very human-like, it doesn't put her in the right to do so, nor is it necessarily productive, especially given the fact that SSS have no solid information about what this world is - they just decided they don't like what they see (with no idea what they are actually seeing) and went in guns blazing. While fearing the unknown is a very human-like reaction as well, it doesn't put them in the right. So yeah ...until the show throws me something to make me think otherwise, i believe SSS to be in the wrong here.

[DarkWish]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

I'm not gonna lie. Tenshi is my favourite character right now because of the above. I feel so bad for her who's just upholding the law and gets hurt because of it. Now if everyone would just be good ol' citizens, this wouldn't be a problem lol.

Oh yeah, being voiced by Hanazawa, my #1 VA, probably is a large part of the reason of me liking her. XD

atm Tenshi is my fav too but ill sure fall in for yuri (atleast i beleve).

In my view Tenshi is a angel who either trys to tell them something or just dosent breake the rules and she counters evry attack (they suddenly attacked her in ep 1 when she was going in the school maybe she wanted to eat too ) maybe shes not so evil.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I dunno, i would say that burrowing a huge, death ridden cave under her school with a weapons factory on the far end (weapons she constantly gets shot with) falls under the "provocation" category

Overall it is hard to say for now, but i am still inclined to believe that SSS are in the wrong here (I am going with the assumption this indeed is "purgatory" of sorts and they are indeed dead, not some matrix-like world, for the sake of argument) and ultimately barking up the wrong tree so to speak. While it isn't hard to see why Yuri would be insurmountably upset at how her childhood went, and lashing out over it at the perceived figure of authority would be very human-like, it doesn't put her in the right to do so, nor is it necessarily productive, especially given the fact that SSS have no solid information about what this world is - they just decided they don't like what they see (with no idea what they are actually seeing) and went in guns blazing. While fearing the unknown is a very human-like reaction as well, it doesn't put them in the right. So yeah ...until the show throws me something to make me think otherwise, i believe SSS to be in the wrong here.

True though considering how long they've been building up the weapons that was a pretty delayed response to their 'provocation' .

I just can't think that the SSS are seriously in the wrong. In terms of not really knowing that fault partially lies with Tenshi and her boss. The SSS aren't given any real information and are stuck basing their decisions on their own experiences and thoughts. We are jumping in part way. The only way to find out things like "if you do what is expected and go to class you'll disappear" would be to have people do that and see what happens. If it is just purgatory why not just tell them that? They are basically being told to just play nice and obey without any explanations. Just seems that things progressed in a straightforward manner. Start asking questions with no answers. Not complying leads to getting warned and pursued if trying to get away. Really at the core they are fighting back against something that is trying to control them and expects obedience regardless of what the people think.

The question of whether you are right or wrong to rebel can be a gray area morally. Obviously we can't say it's fine to rebel whenever since we don't want anarchy. But we would want people to rise up if they had to. On the other hand you have the anger at God reason to fight back. Maybe it's fighting back at the wrong source. Might get into a strange philosophical place when discussing when it's good to fight against God and about his involvement in the world. I suppose a more direct question I have is what right do you need to fight back?

In part I don't even think God (or whatever figure is truly overlooking this place) thinks they are completely unjustified. Otherwise they should have been overrun by 10,000 Tenshi in a very cute wave of annihilation. Really wonder what is being played at with things being handled like this. Being told they are in the wrong but only taking simple actions against them.

With the information I have will just believe they aren't in the wrong. There's a logic behind their actions and they are doing the best they can with the information they have.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That is a pretty bad resize, the scale and proportion is messed up.

I'll get to more proper fitting version of the sig when I have time, I just did that resize in a few minutes xD.

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Freebies.

Don't see claimed yet, so I'll take that one for now and just leave Azusa on my profile picture .

[Khu]

My Soul, Your Beats!! might overtake my top played song in iTunes. :/

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Khu

My Soul, Your Beats!! might overtake my top played song in iTunes. :/

Likely will for me too when the full version comes out next month, and you act like it's a bad thing for the show to have a such a good theme .

[Skane]

I'll probably be setting up a speculation post later today when I finally get around to watching both episodes in full. I have always enjoyed trying to decipher what kind of mind-f*** Mr Jun is trying to pull off this time.

That said, I do believe one of the girls did suicide and is now doing penance for it. Not as punishment, but as a way to heal her soul. The way things play out, her story will probably be the 2nd last one to resolve, and will probably tie (or lead) directly to the last arc.

Unless I'm horribly wrong on who the "End-Girl" is.

What really throws me off my balance though, are the binary sparkles that occur whenever Tenshi deflects objects. It lends great credence to the theory that this is all a simulated world, but man... that would just mess up any "afterlife" speculation unless the Big Guy In The Sky decided to go modern and tech up Purgatory.

Cheers.

[Tempester]

Darn it. Thinking and wondering so much about Angel Beats and visiting this thread regularly is making my weeks loooong.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Darn it. Thinking and wondering so much about Angel Beats and visiting this thread regularly is making my weekends loooong.

That's good for me since I'm on holidays and i want them to last.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

True though considering how long they've been building up the weapons that was a pretty delayed response to their 'provocation' .

I just can't think that the SSS are seriously in the wrong. In terms of not really knowing that fault partially lies with Tenshi and her boss. The SSS aren't given any real information and are stuck basing their decisions on their own experiences and thoughts. We are jumping in part way. The only way to find out things like "if you do what is expected and go to class you'll disappear" would be to have people do that and see what happens. If it is just purgatory why not just tell them that? They are basically being told to just play nice and obey without any explanations. Just seems that things progressed in a straightforward manner. Start asking questions with no answers. Not complying leads to getting warned and pursued if trying to get away. Really at the core they are fighting back against something that is trying to control them and expects obedience regardless of what the people think.

The question of whether you are right or wrong to rebel can be a gray area morally. Obviously we can't say it's fine to rebel whenever since we don't want anarchy. But we would want people to rise up if they had to. On the other hand you have the anger at God reason to fight back. Maybe it's fighting back at the wrong source. Might get into a strange philosophical place when discussing when it's good to fight against God and about his involvement in the world. I suppose a more direct question I have is what right do you need to fight back?

In part I don't even think God (or whatever figure is truly overlooking this place) thinks they are completely unjustified. Otherwise they should have been overrun by 10,000 Tenshi in a very cute wave of annihilation. Really wonder what is being played at with things being handled like this. Being told they are in the wrong but only taking simple actions against them.

With the information I have will just believe they aren't in the wrong. There's a logic behind their actions and they are doing the best they can with the information they have.

Well, maybe they are not supposed to get any explanations - it might just be the way how this world works to maintain its goals, whatever those might be. It must be frustrating for them indeed, but that might be the whole purpose of the place - to let people come to terms with their deaths, accept that fate and "move on" (Be reincarnated if Yuri's theory is correct). It could well be this is a realization they have to reach on their own, to be willing to let go of their previous lives from their own free will, instead of being led by the hand. Life goes on, with or without you; much like how you don't sit down to have a debate with the Grim Reaper when your time comes, there are just some things that go a certain way, regardless of ones personal frustrations about it.

What right does one need to fight back ? None, really, there isn't something to quantify such a thing, one can fight back if he feels he must, but just because you can, doesn't ultimately mean you should, or are correct in doing so. In the end, what does their "rebellion against god" accomplish ? Not all that much from the looks of it - they duke it out with Tenshi and go their separate ways with her at the end of the day, to plan the next encounter. They aren't really hindering god or anyone else with their actions (aside from the occasional "obedient soul" that might get blown up in the crossfires i suppose ), only themselves - which is one of the realizations i expect the show to deliver at the end of the day, that in the end their rebellion doesn't accomplish anything productive, only keeps them chained to a life that is already over, and they will have to accept that fact and move on. Kinda like restless ghosts i guess

So ...yeah, in that way i maintain the view they are in the wrong here - they just haven't realized it yet, and are venting their frustrations. Which may well be the purpose of this place, in which case the term "wrong" might not be the correct one to use, but ultimately all the same, as this is probably what they should "not" be doing, if they ever want to be freed of their past. Whether i would be able to calmly analyze the situation if i were in their shoes, unreasonably hurt and with a perceived figure of authority that i see as responsible within my grasp to lash out at, chances are i would do so as well, that is what people tend to do, but since i can look at the situation from the outside, my conclusion is that, yes, siding with SSS would not be my choice.


Of course, in the event this all does turn out Matrix-like (which i can't deny is a possibility), all this debate about souls, reincarnation and what not (I am hardly a spiritual person by any stretch of imagination, i would probably register as a dead pixel in purgatory ) could well be moot, but since that doesn't help the debate, i am just currently assuming that, regardless of what this world might be, they are indeed dead, but we shall see

[zato_1one]

I think that they are actually in MMORPG. NPC, Guild, can't die but can be erased and the 010101 from angel's distortion skill.

[Kafriel]

^ I believe the same...she must be a super-GM or something, having everyone try out their world. Certainly explains why they can't die, why they're limited to schoolgrounds and why everyone else acts just like in a game. Being "erased" also fits a disconnection from the server.
This anime is very light, despite Yuri's attempts to make it deep, so I think it's better to just enjoy it while it lasts

P.S: ep.2 was funny as hell, the doggy trap was hilarious.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I dunno, i would say that burrowing a huge, death ridden cave under her school with a weapons factory on the far end (weapons she constantly gets shot with) falls under the "provocation" category

Overall it is hard to say for now, but i am still inclined to believe that SSS are in the wrong here (I am going with the assumption this indeed is "purgatory" of sorts and they are indeed dead, not some matrix-like world, for the sake of argument) and ultimately barking up the wrong tree so to speak. While it isn't hard to see why Yuri would be insurmountably upset at how her childhood went, and lashing out over it at the perceived figure of authority would be very human-like, it doesn't put her in the right to do so, nor is it necessarily productive, especially given the fact that SSS have no solid information about what this world is - they just decided they don't like what they see (with no idea what they are actually seeing) and went in guns blazing. While fearing the unknown is a very human-like reaction as well, it doesn't put them in the right. So yeah ...until the show throws me something to make me think otherwise, i believe SSS to be in the wrong here.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

True though considering how long they've been building up the weapons that was a pretty delayed response to their 'provocation' .

I just can't think that the SSS are seriously in the wrong. In terms of not really knowing that fault partially lies with Tenshi and her boss. The SSS aren't given any real information and are stuck basing their decisions on their own experiences and thoughts. We are jumping in part way. The only way to find out things like "if you do what is expected and go to class you'll disappear" would be to have people do that and see what happens. If it is just purgatory why not just tell them that? They are basically being told to just play nice and obey without any explanations. Just seems that things progressed in a straightforward manner. Start asking questions with no answers. Not complying leads to getting warned and pursued if trying to get away. Really at the core they are fighting back against something that is trying to control them and expects obedience regardless of what the people think.

The question of whether you are right or wrong to rebel can be a gray area morally. Obviously we can't say it's fine to rebel whenever since we don't want anarchy. But we would want people to rise up if they had to. On the other hand you have the anger at God reason to fight back. Maybe it's fighting back at the wrong source. Might get into a strange philosophical place when discussing when it's good to fight against God and about his involvement in the world. I suppose a more direct question I have is what right do you need to fight back?

In part I don't even think God (or whatever figure is truly overlooking this place) thinks they are completely unjustified. Otherwise they should have been overrun by 10,000 Tenshi in a very cute wave of annihilation. Really wonder what is being played at with things being handled like this. Being told they are in the wrong but only taking simple actions against them.

With the information I have will just believe they aren't in the wrong. There's a logic behind their actions and they are doing the best they can with the information they have.

Two very good and well pointed out views. I think these 2 post show exactly how much potential the series has if it generate discussion such as this. I must admit that at first i thought the S3 were fighting against some evil authority figure. But the more and more i think about it. It seems majority of S3 had issues to begin with. Then when Yuri rebelled the students with issues already just happen to gravitate towards her as a means to vent their frustrations. I'm starting to think even the S3 does not have all the answers are only fighting Tenshi on their preconceptions with the exception of Yuri right now because of her past. The possibility of whats really going on was so interesting to me it actually kept me up last night thinking.

[Klashikari]

Actually, the fun fact is that we do not have enough information ourselves: there isn't any substancial information at hand that back up the whole SSS conviction at all. I personally can't expect it to be either "black" or "white" without the whole context clear as day.

And to be frank, I really can't imagine so many people gravitating around Yuri without good reasons. Even charisma alone doesn't buy you a whole "army" to fight for your cause.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Actually, the fun fact is that we do not have enough information ourselves: there isn't any substancial information at hand that back up the whole SSS conviction at all. I personally can't expect it to be either "black" or "white" without the whole context clear as day.

And to be frank, I really can't imagine so many people gravitating around Yuri without good reasons. Even charisma alone doesn't buy you a whole "army" to fight for your cause.

Agreed. The semi-kept in the dark aspect keeps the intrigue running high, which is a good thing. It's a positive thing to be kept in the same boat as Otonashi and seeing it from his perspective, at least for me anyway. And people generally don't rebel without a cause. Particuarly against someone who can kill with ease and doesn't seem to die no matter what. To rebel generally requires a justified reason that outweighs the potential negatives and leads to something better in the long run. And to gravitate around a person like Yuri, who doesn't look like a natural fighter, but does back up her words with action and a fiery will, does require more than charisma. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And to be frank, I really can't imagine so many people gravitating around Yuri without good reasons. Even charisma alone doesn't buy you a whole "army" to fight for your cause.

If you were told that if you just went along with everything you'd "disappear", wouldn't you be likely to start fighting? (The question is though, is disappearing really a bad thing or is it just moving on from the state they're in.) There's also the whole "God screwed me so I'm going to stick it to him" aspect. It's not about "her" cause, it's about the apprehension and resentment common to them. (Unless it turns out that the other members have very different motives.) The charisma merely makes her the "leader".

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by yononaka

If you were told that if you just went along with everything you'd "disappear", wouldn't you be likely to start fighting? (The question is though, is disappearing really a bad thing or is it just moving on from the state they're in.) There's also the whole "God screwed me so I'm going to stick it to him" aspect. It's not about "her" cause, it's about the apprehension and resentment common to them. (Unless it turns out that the other members have very different motives.) The charisma merely makes her the "leader".

That's exactly what I meant: if it was just for "mere" personal reason or charisma, Yuri would hardly have so many followers in that... "crusade" or rather rebellion.

Considering the fight was spanning for a moderately long time (seeing how the Guild was setup that way), it is hard to believe that Yuri could have that kind of army with reason that doesn't hold the water.
I don't claim that Yuri has all information at hand: there is a margin that she does not know things that Tenshi does. However, it is very likely that Yuri and her fellow men have enough "evidence" to fight against the world.
Beyond the "not-so-happy-with-their-life-and-their-unfair-death", there has to be things that back up the whole concept of "erased people", "NPC" and so forth. Thus why I believe Yuri didn't win so many people just by charisma or her own cause: there has to be something more substancial to have gathered so many people around, and it has to be pertinent enough so that everyone share the same sentiment. Even if it may not be absolute, there should have enough reasons for everyone to brand together against god/the world.

Judging by the possibly long time lapse, we can conclude that the world presented to them does not fulfill them in their death. Considering they are dead and they do not age, I think it is reasonable to say that aside of being outraged about their life and death, there is also the "immortal syndrome" here: I really doubt people can keep going with classes, club activities and so forth ad nauseam.
Those who are not NPC are shown to be catapulted in that world, without being "properly formatted": they do sense something is strange, not similar to what they were living prior their death (which is proved with Hinata, in the Light novel / manga portion). Thus far, regardless if it is afterlife or matrix, there are factors that cannot satisfy a large group of individuals.

Things are quite interesting if you factor what you learn from the first chapter of the light novel, regarding Hinata (not a spoiler, but for those who do not wish to learn stuff from the prequel medium):

Spoiler for Light Novel: Angel Beats! Track Zero - Chapter 1:

Yuri was basically throwing Hinata into a very distinct situation where "things are wrong" from the get go, by "killing" him twice. Even though she wasn't that subtle, Yuri made clear to Hinata that something is wrong in this world, and naturally, Hinata couldn't stand that "eternal high school life", seeking for Yuri's "humanity" among the cold machine-like existences.

By this, if Hinata had trouble to "enjoy" such kind of life that early, I wouldn't be surprised that many of them were puzzled when they were thrown like garbage bags in that *cliché unknown school life", as if they were dreaming.
It is very likely that all of them are motivated with personal and various reasons, it is pretty clear that they cannot accept such "life" presented to them.

If what Yuri said was true regarding that no one has comitted suicide, it is clear that most, if not all, human souls dropped in this afterlife have died in a fashion that leave them regret. And by this, we can conclude that a certain portion of them cannot accept not only how they died, but how they were given a "school life" as a compensation.
I would personally feel "cheated" if I were to get that instead of just keeping going living or ending it without any afterthought, but heh.

We can bet on grey shades, and probably red herring / plot twist in the future.
But as far as our situation goes, we do not have all information at our disposal, so there isn't much to say if either side is the "good", the "bad" or the ugly.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

But as far as our situation goes, we do not have all information at our disposal, so there isn't much to say if either side is the "good", the "bad" or the ugly.

Exactly. We know who the viewpoint side is, but I have a feeling that Tenshi isn't exactly the antagonist we're looking for. Something strikes me as not right with this "afterlife" world, we just have no idea what that something is yet, much less if any character shown represents it.

So very intriguing.

[Khu]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

Likely will for me too when the full version comes out next month, and you act like it's a bad thing for the show to have a such a good theme .

It is when it's overtaking another really good theme from my favourite anime... :/

[Wrath88]

Rather than caring about who's in the right/wrong, I care more about the rules that make up this place.

1. We saw bullet holes to the building get regenerated, but excavating huge pieces of rock to form a cavern doesn't initiate regen. So building regen is limited to the school building itself. Nice to know that the window Noda gets knocked out off is automatically fixed, but what about resetting all those Anti-Tenshi traps underground?
2. Tenshi only initiates her Skills after receiving an attack.
3. NPCs are so dumb that they can't hold onto their food tickets and cheer for a band at the same time.