Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll

[Tormenk]

Originally Posted by Fabien

I don't think the Arc-en-Ciel is still on the Asura. I believe it was a temporary fitting, just to destroy the Book of Darkness.

Possible, since it was closed to being scrapped and I don't think a piece of equipment like the Arc would be treated like trash.

Originally Posted by BBM

One tender/fluffy scene per episode should do nicely, for the emotional bonds to be created.

One scene per episode? End result would be worse than what you have now.

But what did their elements add to the main plot?
Erio:Fate having a kid is nice, but they could have kept it to Caro. And for close combat the trainees already have Subaru.
Lucitia: Aka the extra, extra, enemy. Her time should have been spend on the numbers and/or Zest.

I'll leave this to Chaos since he's presented his points again and again.

No, she is there to add an emotional aspect to stopping the Cradle, which I find to be very important.

It certainly wasn't present, much, the 'emotional aspect'. I felt tons much more of the urgency to stop the Cradle in Vita's case.

[BBM]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Hello? Erio is a part of Project F and was a key attention in Jail's eyes back in episode 5. Had they developed him properly it would had make sense.

So what? It isn't anything new, we already have Fate for that.

Hello? Lutecia is the a Relic weapon, whatever it was back then, it sounded dangerous. AND Jail himself had talked big about her summoning powers.

I was less then impressed, even in the beginning. And she had plenty of airtime and did very little with it. A complete waste.
It also annoyed me that Caro and Lutecia are near identical in skills and abilities. and if I had to choice to dump one, it would be Lutecia.

ANYONE could have been in that seat and you can still have that effect. You don't need a mother/daughter love.

I don't think that Nanoha would have cried her eyes out if it was Ginga.

Originally Posted by Tormenk

One scene per episode? End result would be worse than what you have now.

There are only a couple of episodes between finding her and her kidnapping.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Like hell. It's the same damn thing over and over around. You could have one solid moment and it'll still be as memoriable as a hundred.

This is deliberate spamming fanservice.

Hello? Erio is a part of Project F and was a key attention in Jail's eyes back in episode 5. Had they developed him properly it would had make sense.

Hello? Lutecia is the a Relic weapon, whatever it was back then, it sounded dangerous. AND Jail himself had talked big about her summoning powers.

Both of them caught the attention of the main villain long before a cry baby.

ANYONE could have been in that seat and you can still have that effect. You don't need a mother/daughter love.

And for that matter, the whole Cradle drama was weak.

True.Its sad how a show like nanoha had loss its strong plot points for fanservice.

Thing is,as i said earlier,its was better for at least Erio and Lutecia to not exist at all.Furthermore,from what i see i think lutecia was not only poorly developed,but also had an origin that did not seem to suit her character design at all.Tech mind control stuff to her mysterious powers do not fit at all to me.At first look in the OP,i spectulated she had a more mystical origin,due to how she looked in that scene.Guess i was wrong.And for Erio to call Lutecia..Lu..boy when did he get so familar with her within like a few mins?

True for that one.

Hmm...true........the cradle saga was weak.Wow Suddenly a 1337 SUP4 H4X0R ship of boomdoom just came into the picture.Did they give enough story development on how powerful and dangerous it was?Not sufficient enough for me at least to feel the danger.What would happen?At least the jewel seeds in S1 showed us instances of their threat if left unattended.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by BBM

So what? It isn't anything new, we already have Fate for that.

That's the point isn't it? It COULD have been something. Were you not around during the 5th episode? If so let me fill you in -

People were smoking up theories of what else could they be hidding. What you know about Fate was what the Project consist of, but why does Jail want a subject of it? What does he know of F that the first season didn't explain?

There is so many questions, so many interesting secrets.

There isn't anything new because Vivio stole that away.

Originally Posted by BBM

I was less then impressed, even in the beginning. And she had plenty of airtime and did very little with it. A complete waste.

Yeah, and getting all cute with Nanoha and Fate is a brilliant used of time

At least she moved the plot, introducing herself and her abilities. Fighting the forwards... Stealing for the Doctor... Hell we don't even know what she stole.

Originally Posted by BBM

It also annoyed me that Caro and Lutecia are near identical in skills and abilities. and if I had to choice to dump one, it would be Lutecia.

If that's how you compare them then you might as well dump Vivio who is useless in that sense. Notice that Caro and Lutecia are on opposite sides? They were meant to be rivals against each other, skills and ability similiarities means jack.

And you're trying to dodge the fact that I was right about her importance as a relic weapon. Why? Because Jail NEEDED her, that means she's suppose to have something up her sleeves. She is supposed to have her new developmenst first before the new characters.

There isn't anything new because Vivio stole that away.

Originally Posted by BBM

I don't think that Nanoha would have cried her eyes out if it was Ginga.

But she would be crying if it's Fate, Vita, Hayate, Subaru, Teana... The list goes on.

Nanoha could develop a bond with anyone of them, you don't need a new little girl for that.

Originally Posted by BBM

There are only a couple of episodes between finding her and her kidnapping.

Three episodes, and look at the mess we're in.

You seem to be confuse. You see, you don't just create a character, then toss them aside for a new one! You damn well make do with your promise on with the onces you have.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

People were smoking up theories of what else could they be hidding. What you know about Fate was what the Project consist of, but why does Jail want a subject of it? What does he know of F that the first season didn't explain?

There is so many questions, so many interesting secrets.

Yeah, and getting all cute with Nanoha and Fate is a brilliant used of time

At least she moved the plot, introducing herself and her abilities. Fighting the forwards... Stealing for the Doctor... Hell we don't even know what she stole.

If that's how you compare them then you might as well dump Vivio who is useless in that sense. Notice that Caro and Lutecia are on opposite sides? They were meant to be rivals against each other, skills and ability similiarities means jack.

And you're trying to dodge the fact that I was right about her importance as a relic weapon. Why? Because Jail NEEDED her, that means she's suppose to have something up her sleeves. She is supposed to have her new developmenst first before the new characters.

Sigh.....in the end,we did not get the relevant information on such a big enigmatic project even from the horse's mouth.

[sacarsm]YES,indeed,it was a brilliant idea that we get to see nanohananohafatefate extraextra cutey time[sacarsm]

Its not just the similarity in device type both caro and lutecia have.Heck,even they had summons to go up againist each other.It was like the storywriter did not even notice in time about their character design.

Furthermore,we want to know more about her,since she is such a prominent figure as a antagonist.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I expect less attention then, especially if everything she does is more or less the same... And she's not just a 5 year old. With all this so call power of the kings, you would think they could have her do something interesting once in awhile...

Doesn't have to be flashy... And drawing and helping out around the house doesn't count as well.

Agreed. They could have done more with Vivio with less NXF.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

This is different, she is completely helpless. Fate had her powers and she uses them, Hayate can still cook, cosp- design her Knight's barrier jacket...

They could still do something.

So what did Hayate do again? Things around the house.

What did Vivio do? Things around the house.

Well waddaya know, they did pretty much the same.

of course, Hayate has the last of episodes of A's in her favour, which is why I am hoping Vivio will do something cool in 26.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Very well, I was harsh myself.

It makes her a very plain character.

Can't argue with the plain, really.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yes maybe, but it's not the number one answer most of her fans would give isn't it.

Yes, but most of them fans are rabid NXF that led to this situation in the first place. Why start taking them serious now?

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What we needed was new refreshing Vivio scenes, why the hell do we need to be reminded how much Nanoha loves Vivio and vice verse?

And her powers were practically non-existence till all of a sudden in the last few episodes, but I'm not that concerned about it.

Once more, agreed.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, they were on a good track to development with what Erio and Caro talked about in episode 10, as well as Caro's flashback history in episode 5... AND they had just made Lutecia face-to-face for the first time.

It was a perfect chance to development them all.

In my opinion Lutecia should have had an encounter with the main cast way back at the auction episode. This would give plenty of time to flesh out things before shit hit the fan.

Originally Posted by Fabien

At least Fate and Hayate could do something, and ultimately managed to have a positive role.

Quite right, that is one score they have in the advantage, my point still stands though.

I myself am hoping for Vivio to do something in 26.

Originally Posted by Fabien

Replace Vivio with a dog or a cat, StrikerS wouldn't change that much.

... You don't honestly believe that, do you?

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

ANYONE could have been in that seat and you can still have that effect. You don't need a mother/daughter love.

And for that matter, the whole Cradle drama was weak.

Weak because it wasn't fleshed out propperly. So much potential, and now its nowhere as satisfying as it could be.

[Ichy]

At least we got Starlight Breaker... THAT was the highlight of the Saison...

I wanted Hayate, Nanoha and Fate to actually DESTROY that Craddle
Oh wait, Hayate can`t be usefull in StrikerS

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Keroko

~
So what did Hayate do again? Things around the house.

What did Vivio do? Things around the house.

Well waddaya know, they did pretty much the same.

of course, Hayate has the last of episodes of A's in her favour, which is why I am hoping Vivio will do something cool in 26.
~

I honestly hope you're not being serious here. Hayate gave humanity to the Knights and was a great source of character development to the Wolkenritter. The desperation emanated from the Knights would not be as intense if the bond between them and Hayate was not properly fleshed out. Recall the episode where they flashbacked to the start of A's and then proceeded with a dedicated background story.

A's IS about Hayate's story. It began with her, and ended with her. Everything more or less revolved around her, even Graham. The same cannot be said of Vivio and StrikerS. At best, Vivio is a secondary character.

In terms of bringing cards to the table, Hayate would easily slamdunk Vivio's "2 Pairs" with a "Royal Flush".

However, I am not going to solely blame Vivio. There are other factors at fault too. Comparing her to Hayate is criminal in my opinion though. An insult to Hayate even.

Cheers.

[Nightengale]

The difference between Vivio and Hayate, was that, putting aside that Hayate was a better character, she was also a much much better character catalyst, since Wolkies revolve around her.

Vivio? The only real character she affected was Nanoha, and this whole mama-angle was honestly wasn't developed well at all. At least it's safe to say that the supposed drama climax of StrikerS wasn't good. Tolerable, but that's not a praise.

Originally Posted by Ichy

At least we got Starlight Breaker... THAT was the highlight of the Saison...

Actually, if you ask me, none of the old characters amount to jack in StrikerS, if it's just based on the anime.

Subaru, Teana and Jail made StrikerS watchable. The former 2 for the subtle, solid character development, and the latter for making boring episodes entertaining.

There are other good things too, like Agito and Zest, but even then, their potential was...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Skane

I honestly hope you're not being serious here. Hayate gave humanity to the Knights and was a great source of character development to the Wolkenritter. The desperation emanated from the Knights would not be as intense if the bond between them and Hayate was not properly fleshed out. Recall the episode where they flashbacked to the start of A's and then proceeded with a dedicated background story.

A's IS about Hayate's story. It began with her, and ended with her. Everything more or less revolved around her, even Graham. The same cannot be said of Vivio and StrikerS. At best, Vivio is a secondary character.

In terms of bringing cards to the table, Hayate would easily slamdunk Vivio's "2 Pairs" with a "Royal Flush".

However, I am not going to solely blame Vivio. There are other factors at fault too. Comparing her to Hayate is criminal in my opinion though. An insult to Hayate even.

Cheers.

I wasn't serious there, not at all. Hence the little at the end.

And I am not completely comparing the two either. In fact, the only thing I am comparing the two with is what Chaos calls the 'helpless girl' card to prove to him that it is not always a 'cheap way' to increase drama.

Yes, Hayate completely outclasses Vivio in pretty much every aspect. I know that, don't worry.

[Estavali]

Personally, if I'm to choose between the 2 summoners, I would give up Caro. Friedrich has grown so close to Erio that he's pretty much his right now. Sad to say, Caro may have been rendered redundant as the storyline progressed.

One way to make use of both Caro and Lutecia's plots is to combine them.

Give Fried to Lutecia or even Erio (Dracheritter, anyone?), or scrape him totally, and replace Hakuten-ou with Voltaire (and make him look more like a black Kagutsuchi, I say ^^). Garyuu....imho his presence actually weakens Zest's protector role in the trio and vice versa, but it's a pity to trash him, so keep it shall be.

Merge Caro's story together with Lu's. Give Lu Caro's "dreaded powers" status and make her mother suffer along with her, but still loving her despite the problems. Of course this might either require the elimination of Zest's unit to be pushed to a date nearer to current events, or make Lu and Erio a bit more older. Or, another way is to make Lu an outcast child like Caro and let her mom assume Fate's role in this case. Either way, this could be help to provide greater motivation for Lu to resurrect her mother.

In present time, put Erio and Lutecia in a situation similar to Nanoha and Fate 10+ years ago, with more complications and you're good to go (and you might even get the boy-meets-girl romance we non-yuri-ists have been demanding for so long).

Me 2 cents.

[BBM]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

That's the point isn't it? It COULD have been something. Were you not around during the 5th episode? If so let me fill you in -
People were smoking up theories of what else could they be hidding. What you know about Fate was what the Project consist of, but why does Jail want a subject of it? What does he know of F that the first season didn't explain?

And Erio wasn't even needed for that. If vivio was introduced then those same discussions would popup.

Yeah, and getting all cute with Nanoha and Fate is a brilliant used of time

She is a just about the youngest character ever, being cute and forming bonds is what children of that age should be doing. Or do you want her to be trained by Nanoha? Also if her powers are shown off to much then she could have fought the kidnapping off or she would have gotten more guards.

At least she moved the plot, introducing herself and her abilities. Fighting the forwards... Stealing for the Doctor... Hell we don't even know what she stole.

And what did she do what any of the numbers couldn't? And those numbers could have really used the airtime that Lu and her bugs wasted.

If that's how you compare them then you might as well dump Vivio who is useless in that sense. Notice that Caro and Lutecia are on opposite sides? They were meant to be rivals against each other, skills and ability similiarities means jack.

If you want to main plot to be better, the first thing what you do is to dump a side-side-plot character such as Lutecia.

And you're trying to dodge the fact that I was right about her importance as a relic weapon. Why? Because Jail NEEDED her, that means she's suppose to have something up her sleeves. She is supposed to have her new developmenst first before the new characters.

Her big stuff has been shown in epi 24 and it isn't much.

But she would be crying if it's Fate, Vita, Hayate, Subaru, Teana... The list goes on.
Nanoha could develop a bond with anyone of them, you don't need a new little girl for that.

First of all, just how are going to write that in? Secondly, those are friendship bonds, some people want more.

Three episodes, and look at the mess we're in.

Three episodes don't make any difference considering what happened all the previous episodes.

You seem to be confuse. You see, you don't just create a character, then toss them aside for a new one! You damn well make do with your promise on with the onces you have.

Why bother giving time to a lost case such as Lu?

[Cyz]

Spoiler:

I guess Quattro got what she deserves....though I wasn't expecting to be that extreme Anyway, it's just to show: "Don't mess with Nanoha-mama" or you'll get severe punishment

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by BBM

And Erio wasn't even needed for that. If vivio was introduced then those same discussions would popup.

The point Chaos was trying to make is that erio had a lot of backstory that was only hinted, but never worked out, which gives him a lot of untapped potential.

Originally Posted by BBM

She is a just about the youngest character ever, being cute and forming bonds is what children of that age should be doing. Or do you want her to be trained by Nanoha? Also if her powers are shown off to much then she could have fought the kidnapping off or she would have gotten more guards.

And how does that make a need that she couldn't be more? I would have loved a bit more mystery and intrigue surounding Vivio.

Originally Posted by BBM

And what did she do what any of the numbers couldn't? And those numbers could have really used the airtime that Lu and her bugs wasted.

If you want to main plot to be better, the first thing what you do is to dump a side-side-plot character such as Lutecia.

Vivio was hinted to be of great importance in the earlier episodes, though.

Originally Posted by BBM

First of all, just how are going to write that in? Secondly, those are friendship bonds, some people want more.

And it is the people that wanted more (read NXF fanservice) that played a part in destroying Vivio.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05

Since Teana will be most likely driving Vice's bike towards the Cradle to save the aces, um...can Vice's bike even have the magical ability to fly??
Unless Teana combos it with Subaru's Wing Road and uses the bike to travel on it...but I don't see how the bike will come in handy though... Unless the bike is the counter measure of faster travel out of the Cradle due to the AMF defenses, since Subaru's Wing Road will most likely disappear once they reach inside...

My thought:

They really are doing this to "please" the fans.

Fate's new form made people go "ooohhhh" or etc. but the episode itself wasn't great. So why not have Teana on a bike or whatever they plan to make Subaru do? Oh, yes. I forgot. Plus Agito unison most likely with Signum.

Personally, since I don't stare at fanservice of this series, they could have taken out those transformation sequences and saved 6+ minutes per episode that they do that. Then, they can put the transformation sequences as DVD bonus.

At this point, if the bike suddenly grew wings, I wouldn't be shocked. Though I'd sit there thinking about how stupid that was. The bike probably isn't affected by AMF, so that will help them escape.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

My thought:

They really are doing this to "please" the fans.

Fate's new form made people go "ooohhhh" or etc. but the episode itself wasn't great. So why not have Teana on a bike or whatever they plan to make Subaru do? Oh, yes. I forgot. Plus Agito unison most likely with Signum.

Personally, since I don't stare at fanservice of this series, they could have taken out those transformation sequences and saved 6+ minutes per episode that they do that. Then, they can put the transformation sequences as DVD bonus.

At this point, if the bike suddenly grew wings, I wouldn't be shocked. Though I'd sit there thinking about how stupid that was. The bike probably isn't affected by AMF, so that will help them escape.

I am basically watching this series just for fate chan you know take her service away then there wouldnt be much point to it -
Yep the producers are only dishing out what the fans want but doing it rather haphazardly >.> It would have been better if they focused on making the story better but meh...though I cant think of whatever reason agito to fuse with signum for

and i doubt the bike can fly - they would probably ride it through the wall of the cradle and then nanoha will sprout wings again being away from the field - vice isnt going to be happy :3

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

vice isnt going to be happy :3

Come to think of it, Vice was shooting something in the preview. I have no idea what it is.

Maybe:

1. Cinque
2. Remaining drones
3. He's the real mastermind behind it all. Explains his recovery speed.
4. Service
5. To annoy me

[BBM]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Personally, if I'm to choose between the 2 summoners, I would give up Caro. Friedrich has grown so close to Erio that he's pretty much his right now. Sad to say, Caro may have been rendered redundant as the storyline progressed.

One way to make use of both Caro and Lutecia's plots is to combine them.

Give Fried to Lutecia or even Erio (Dracheritter, anyone?), or scrape him totally, and replace Hakuten-ou with Voltaire (and make him look more like a black Kagutsuchi, I say ^^). Garyuu....imho his presence actually weakens Zest's protector role in the trio and vice versa, but it's a pity to trash him, so keep it shall be.

Merge Caro's story together with Lu's. Give Lu Caro's "dreaded powers" status and make her mother suffer along with her, but still loving her despite the problems. Of course this might either require the elimination of Zest's unit to be pushed to a date nearer to current events, or make Lu and Erio a bit more older. Or, another way is to make Lu an outcast child like Caro and let her mom assume Fate's role in this case. Either way, this could be help to provide greater motivation for Lu to resurrect her mother.

Nice ideas.

In present time, put Erio and Lutecia in a situation similar to Nanoha and Fate 10+ years ago, with more complications and you're good to go (and you might even get the boy-meets-girl romance we non-yuri-ists have been demanding for so long).

Me 2 cents.

Yep, I grant you that there was too little of that. I myself was hoping that Hayete would be in a relationship with a guy her age. Well maybe next season....

Originally Posted by Keroko

And it is the people that wanted more (read NXF fanservice) that played a part in destroying Vivio.

I don't consider vivio to be NxF fanservice. She was one of the last ways for Nanoha to develop new aspects to her character. And the last two seasons have done the friendship thing to death.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by BBM

I don't consider vivio to be NxF fanservice. She was one of the last ways for Nanoha to develop new aspects to her character. And the last two seasons have done the friendship thing to death.

...

...

Please tell me that you're joking.

Vivio is not NXF fanservice? Even I, someone who adores Vivio, must admit that the way Vivio was used before she got captured was 9 out of 10 times to give NXF fanservice. Why? Quite simple: Fate-mama. If Vivio was not NXF fanservice then Fate-mama would not have been neccisary, and hence would not have been put in such a role. This is blatant NXF fanservice, and I can't see how you can claim it not to be.

And Vivio being the 'last' way for Nanoha to develop? There are millions of ways to develop her! Let's start with her being an instructor for example, there could have been focuss on many of the various, various, aspects that come along with it. Or how about her standing in the TSAB? There are tons of things they could have done with that.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Vivio, but this statement made no sense at all.

[BBM]

Vivio is not NXF fanservice?

My problem with that sentence is with the word 'is'. The Fate-mama thing is done just a couple times. Also Vivio has clearly a much stronger bond with Nanoha and she has other roles in the plot.
In short Vivio has a role in the series even if the Fate-mama part was edited out.