Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

I have no intention of arguing the other points (since I think you two are arguing two different definitions of "science"), but I have to question this. Somebody who can fly can generate forward force, hence in the case of resistance can simply attempt to use more force to continue pushing forward. There's nothing special about "footing," other than that it's the ground that's providing the upward force to keep the character standing. In the case of Miyu's aerial platforms, I would think that they would break or fall if subject to too much force, unless Miyu uses extra power to reinforce them, unless you have a source otherwise?

Someone who has to fly literally has to make a beeline to accelerate and generate the forward force needed for a powerful swing or lunge. A straight line may be the shortest and quickest path to travel, but it's also the most predictable.

I highly doubt the Class cards (or enemy Class card users, should the cards somehow fall into the wrong hands) are stupid enough to stand in the path of a linear attack and simply take it.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Someone who has to fly literally has to make a beeline to accelerate and generate the forward force needed for a powerful swing or lunge. A straight line may be the shortest and quickest path to travel, but it's also the most predictable.

How is that any different from Miyu? She has to leap off a foothold in order to build up any force too (and without powered flight, she'll start losing velocity to gravity immediately).

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

How is that any different from Miyu? She has to leap off a foothold in order to build up any force too (and without powered flight, she'll start losing velocity to gravity immediately).

What? You don't have to leap to generate a decent amount of force. All it takes is a firm step.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

What? You don't have to leap to generate a decent amount of force. All it takes is a firm step.

Force = mass x acceleration. Assuming their body weights are identical, as long as Ilya and Miyu have the same acceleration, there is no difference in force. There's no evidence that Ilya cannot accelerate from a hovering start at least as quickly as Miyu taking steps on air. You're seriously suggesting that Ilya has to build up speed for a significant distance in order to match the acceleration of "taking a firm step," in which case her flying is actually inferior to her walking?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Force = mass x acceleration. Assuming their body weights are identical, as long as Ilya and Miyu have the same acceleration, there is no difference in force. There's no evidence that Ilya cannot accelerate from a hovering start at least as quickly as Miyu taking steps on air. You're seriously suggesting that Ilya has to build up speed for a significant distance in order to match the acceleration of "taking a firm step," in which case her flying is actually inferior to her walking?

Leaping =/= stepping. In grounded combat where you are standing on a surface, stepping involves 1) friction with a hard surface, which can be used as leverage to continue applying force beyond the initial push (i.e. "putting your weight" into strikes) and 2) manipulating your center of gravity like a fulcrum via your standing stance/posture to withstand any opposing "push" from the enemy. A human body's mass is not evenly distributed. This a basic, fundamental maneuver in close quarters combat, to the point where it's instinctive for some animals.
Stepping into your attacks is not the same as doing a jumping attack - which would be more or less an aerial strike that would indeed benefit more from flying.

There is also no evidence that Ilya can accelerate more quickly than Miyu can step on air. Sapphire plainly stated that neither style of traveling through air is inherently better than the other. Since Triple R and you are so insistent on claiming flying is better, the burden of proof falls on you to explain why Sapphire is wrong. Since there are little specifics in the series on how flying works (i.e. whether it's "carrying" or "levitating" yourself in the air vs. propelling yourself like a rocket/missile), you are theorycrafting and making even more assumptions on how Ilya's flight works compared to Miyu's style which can arguably be compared to ground combat thanks to having contact with a surface.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Leaping =/= stepping. In grounded combat where you are standing on a surface, stepping involves 1) friction with a hard surface, which can be used as leverage to continue applying force beyond the initial push (i.e. "putting your weight" into strikes) and 2) manipulating your center of gravity like a fulcrum via your standing stance/posture to withstand any opposing "push" from the enemy. A human body's mass is not evenly distributed. This a basic, fundamental maneuver in close quarters combat, to the point where it's instinctive for some animals.
Stepping into your attacks is not the same as doing a jumping attack - which would be more or less an aerial strike that would indeed benefit more from flying.

Yes, ground combat is more natural for a human being than aerial combat. That's totally irrelevant to your claim that flying has less force than moving on a surface.

There is also no evidence that Ilya can accelerate more quickly than Miyu can step on air. Sapphire plainly stated that neither style of traveling through air is inherently better than the other. Since Triple R and you are so insistent on claiming flying is better, the burden of proof falls on you to explain why Sapphire is wrong.

Bullshit. Reread my posts, nowhere have I made the claim that flying is superior. You in fact are suggesting that flying is inherently inferior than walking on a solid surface, despite the two girls moving with comparable effectiveness during the battle.

Since there are little specifics in the series on how flying works (i.e. whether it's "carrying" or "levitating" yourself in the air vs. propelling yourself like a rocket/missile), you are theorycrafting and making even more assumptions on how Ilya's flight works compared to Miyu's style which can arguably be compared to ground combat thanks to having contact with a surface.

Bullshit, once again. I have made no more theorycrafting than you. The fact is, equal force is equal force, regardless of whether it is generated through a flying ability (magic, antigravity, thrust, whatever) or pushing against a solid surface. You in fact are suggesting that Ilya's form of flight cannot accelerate as hard or provide equal thrust as taking a firm step.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Yes, ground combat is more natural for a human being than aerial combat. That's totally irrelevant to your claim that flying has less force than moving on a surface.

Bullshit. Reread my posts, nowhere have I made the claim that flying is superior. You in fact are suggesting that flying is inherently inferior than walking on a solid surface, despite the two girls moving with comparable effectiveness during the battle.

My argument was initially in response to Triple R, who stated:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When it comes to mana use. But I would argue that Ilya's method is better overall because it's smoother, more versatile, and potentially faster (flight speed tends to be faster than running speed or jumping speed).

And my argument was that walking on a solid surface is better for a human being to engage in melee combat as opposed to the advantage in pure mobility flying provides. My point was that both have their own advantages and emulating ground movement in the air was just one example in Miyu's favor since Triple R wants to believe that flying is inherently better when Sapphire plainly states that neither one is plainly better than the other.

and then you came to dispute my post.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Bullshit, once again. I have made no more theorycrafting than you. The fact is, equal force is equal force, regardless of whether it is generated through a flying ability (magic, antigravity, thrust, whatever) or pushing against a solid surface. You in fact are suggesting that Ilya's form of flight cannot accelerate as hard or provide equal thrust as taking a firm step.

We don't know how much force either one of them are generating through either method, so there is nothing to prove that Ilya's flight generates an adequate amount of force needed for melee combat.

We do however know what advantages having a solid surface provides for melee combat, which arguably is similar enough to what Miyu does.

We also can see that for every melee fight so far, it has been done on a surface despite the fact that they can fly and use the air as a third dimension to attack from above for more variety. Rin can fly, and yet when it came to fighting the Saber card you see her clashing weapons on the ground instead of making circles around Saber's head. The same goes for Ilya in the next episode who also made strikes with Kanshou and Byakuya only on the ground and only retreated to the air when she was going for ranged attacks by throwing overloaded swords. By your own admission, fighting on the surface is more natural for a human than fighting in the air.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

and then you came to dispute my post.

That's because the examples you used were terrible. "Footing" and flight/thrust at an equal amount of force are equal. When one needs to "stand your ground," as long as there's the appropriate amount of force in the appropriate direction necessary, the source of said force is irrelevant. We have no evidence that Ilya cannot generate that amount of force (in fact based on her movements during flight, she should be able to), which was what you implied. In the same situation, Miyu too would need to make sure her aerial footholds can withstand/provide the necessary force without collapsing, which was the point of my first post. We have not seen Miyu in melee in the air anymore than Ilya.

We don't know how much force either one of them are generating through either method, so there is nothing to prove that Ilya's flight generates an adequate amount of force needed for melee combat.

We do however know what advantages having a solid surface provides for melee combat. We also can see that for every melee fight so far, it has been done on a surface despite the fact that they can fly and use the air as a third dimension to attack from above for more variety. Rin can fly, and yet when it came to fighting the Saber card you see her clashing weapons on the ground instead of making circles around Saber's head. The same goes for Ilya in the next episode who also made strikes with Kanshou and Byakuya only on the ground and only retreated to the air when she was going for ranged attacks by throwing overloaded swords.

True, but we also haven't seen Miyu in serious melee in the air yet. Her attack on Caster was made with an attempted backstab, a beam, and a leap, not a hand-to-hand battle. Since we don't know how much force either of them are using, we cannot know how "solid" her platforms can be considered, other than that it can hold her weight when she's standing still and dissipates when she jumps.

Also to note, if we leave off the discussion on the forces necessary, the advantage of Miyu's "flight" technique is, as you mentioned, its familiarity and established methods. The disadvantage not mentioned is that it as with ground combat, it requires balance and posture (which limits possible techniques and angles of attack), and is recognizable as combat on a 2D plane by an opponent. It does not take advantage of the weightlessness and free movement in a 3D space that Ilya's flight allows.

[Unknown Soldier]

This argument is about as sensical as the argument that flying is different from floating.

You only need to watch the first Kara no Kyoukai movie to get the reference I just made.

[Dengar]

I though magic wasn't really that limited at all, just hard to pull off. Wasn't it magecraft that was limited?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

This argument is about as sensical as the argument that flying is different from floating.

You only need to watch the first Kara no Kyoukai movie to get the reference I just made.

Fujou Kirie wasn't even using her body to fly. Those things Shiki killed in the first movie were literally phantoms.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I though magic wasn't really that limited at all, just hard to pull off. Wasn't it magecraft that was limited?

Folks are having trouble remembering what terms to use for what.

The Kaleidosticks don't seem to work by the same rules as Rin and Luvia's powers, thus magical girls can easily accomplish things that mages cannot. Whether what Illya and Miyu are utilizing is some form of true magic or not is unclear, but it's not standard magecraft.

[Dengar]

^Agreed, it totally isn't. I am assuming that the Kaleidosticks have properties similar to Zelretch's sword, which allow them to draw mana from.... other sources.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

And my argument was that walking on a solid surface is better for a human being to engage in melee combat as opposed to the advantage in pure mobility flying provides.

And that argument is very faulty, largely because its almost entirely presumptuous. One key presumption you're making is that the real world laws of physics are fully in effect for melee combat involving magical girls in this anime. This is one of the dangers I see with equating Nasuverse magic with "scientific" - It may lead to faulty presumptions based on real world science that doesn't necessarily apply to the Nasuverse.

Illya may well be able to put her weight behind mid-air flying attacks even if she has no "footing".

My point was that both have their own advantages and emulating ground movement in the air was just one example in Miyu's favor since Triple R wants to believe that flying is inherently better when Sapphire plainly states that neither one is plainly better than the other.

And who says that Sapphire is definitely 100% right? It's impossible for Sapphire to simply be mistaken, or to voice an incorrect opinion?

And even if Sapphire is somehow infallible, is it impossible that she might have stretched the truth a bit just for the sake of Miyu's self-esteem and mental well-being?

I take exception to your unwarranted condescending tone over what I "want" to believe. I don't merely "want" to believe that flying is inherently better, I do believe and think that. My position is perfectly reasonable. It is perfectly reasonable to hold flying to be inherently superior to air-walking for reasons I have already laid out, as well as some I haven't even touched on yet (question: If you wanted to travel a very long distance as quickly as possible, would you rather be able to fly or be able to air walk?)

We also can see that for every melee fight so far, it has been done on a surface despite the fact that they can fly and use the air as a third dimension to attack from above for more variety.

I wouldn't want to do a diagonally downwards flying attack on someone holding a sword the way that Saber Alter does. I think the reasons for this are fairly obvious. It's much less risky to engage in ground combat here. And it should be noted that engaging in ground combat does not somehow give air walking an advantage over flying, as ground combat means that neither is being used.

[Dengar]

Her 'air jumping' is subject to gravity, which can be advantageous, but also carries an increased risk of causing harm to one's self.

[Liddo-kun]

Caster tough to beat, but then they encounter a worse problem = Saber Alter.

the only thing I dislike here is the constant blabbing Luvia and Rin.