Haruhi Suzumiya - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Haruhi Fans only)

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Jintor

I think we have differing definitions of "Main Character"; this is probably because I believe you can only have one 'Main character', a smaller group of 'primary characters', 'secondary characters', and then 'extras'. For example, in Lucky Star, the Main Character is Konata, but the Primary Characters are Miyuki, Kagami and Tsukasa. In Evangelion, the Main Character is Shinji, but the Primary Characters are Rei, Asuka, and Misato. In Gurren-Lagann, the main character is Simon, the other but Primary Characters are Kamina and Yoko.

Fullmetal Alchemist. Even though Ed's the title character(sorta), I'll be damned if you don't consider Al a main character.

[Jintor]

Will Smith's character.

Al is a Primary character.

The Main character trumps all the other characters.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jintor

Will Smith's character.

Funny... if I had to choose, I'd probably choose Tommy Lee Jones' character. He's the mentor figure after all. He's the guy who was an agent before Will was.

Who's the main character in the Superman/Batman comic?

[Jintor]

Will Smith's character?

I admit my theory fails when we get into things that are deliberately engineered as Duo creations...

/edit I chose Will Smith because we're generally supposed to empathise with Jay because he's the rookie; he's the one the story follows from the start to the end. MIB 2 might be different; I think that focuses more on Kay.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jintor

Will Smith's character?

LOL

I admit my theory fails when we get into things that are deliberately engineered as Duo creations...

Well, I'll admit that most fictional works do tend to have one particular main character. But there are exceptions.

[Jintor]

Like the Blues Brothers. They fail my litmus test as well.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I believe that the Kyon/Haruhi dynamic is a ying/yang one in many respects. Each has personality characteristics that would serve to make the other one more well-rounded. And, what we see through the novels, in my opinion, is each character gradually and slowly becoming more like the other one.

...

So, I tend to see Kyon and Haruhi sharing the center of the narrative, the rest of the SOS Brigade immediately surrounding them (with Nagato being perhaps a bit more prominent than Itsuki and Mikuru), and the the other characters surrounding the SOS Brigade.

You structure heirachy as a yin/yang circle surrounded by more circles, while I see it as a typical triangle. Interesting...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jintor

Al is a Primary character.

There are several times in the manga when Ed drops out of focus entirely, and it moves to Al... Al is one of the two main characters of the duo. In this way, I agree with Triple_R... some characters can share a main character role because they are designed that way.


Haruhi and Kyon, however, are really not designed that way... Kyon spends relatively little time in most of the stories (again, especially Vol. 7, you need to finish it before you make comments about it, Triple_R) by Haruhi's side, although he's with her most of the time OUT of the narrative's scope. By that I mean that he sits in front of her in class and generally does whatever she says.

I believe the character Kyon actually interacts most with might be Koizumi, like I suggested earlier. Koizumi is practically his confidante, precisely because he HAS no one else. (I'm sure he'd talk to Haruhi if what he was talking about didn't involve her, but...)


And wait, Triple_R, you're into Vol 7 already? Skip Melancholy of Mikuru until after the Prologue?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

There are several times in the manga when Ed drops out of focus entirely, and it moves to Al... Al is one of the two main characters of the duo. In this way, I agree with Triple_R... some characters can share a main character role because they are designed that way.

Thank you. And I would argue that Kyon and Haruhi are designed that way as well. Due to the unique yin/yang element between them, as well as many other factors.

Kyon spends relatively little time in most of the stories (again, especially Vol. 7, you need to finish it before you make comments about it, Triple_R)

Well, I'm not commenting on Vol. 7 as a whole. I was just pointing out how the opening narration of the Prologue of Volume 7 focuses very intensely on Haruhi, and for many paragraphs.

...by Haruhi's side, although he's with her most of the time OUT of the narrative's scope. By that I mean that he sits in front of her in class and generally does whatever she says.

I believe the character Kyon actually interacts most with might be Koizumi, like I suggested earlier. Koizumi is practically his confidante, precisely because he HAS no one else. (I'm sure he'd talk to Haruhi if what he was talking about didn't involve her, but...)

Actually, I might agree with you here. However, this is about the only time we see Koizumi take center stage... when he's talking with Kyon one-on-one. Whereas Haruhi is unique in that she often takes center stage with out respect to Kyon. That is, to say, Koizumi, Nagato, and Mikuru are only center stage when Kyon focuses on them. Haruhi, OTOH, maintains a constant center stage presence by how she holds an authoritative stature compared to all the characters (not just Kyon), and also by how she consistently has great plot relevance.

Basically, even if we don't take her powers into account, Haruhi's stature is raised simply through being SOS Brigade Chief, and by her overt eccentricity. This causes her to be a point of focus for all of the characters of this anime and novel franchise. Apart from Haruhi, only Kyon enjoys such a "point of focus" stature, albeit for different reasons... reasons that directly relate back to Haruhi, usually.

And wait, Triple_R, you're into Vol 7 already? Skip Melancholy of Mikuru until after the Prologue?

Yes, that's my approach.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Basically, even if we don't take her powers into account, Haruhi's stature is raised simply through being SOS Brigade Chief, and by her overt eccentricity. This causes her to be a point of focus for all of the characters of this anime and novel franchise. Apart from Haruhi, only Kyon enjoys such a "point of focus" stature, albeit for different reasons... reasons that directly relate back to Haruhi, usually.

Haruhi's abilities are the center of the story... not Haruhi's character. Although one is an extension of the other, I feel that Haruhi-as-a-character is extremely unimportant compared to Haruhi-as-a-god.

I also really think the series is more about Kyon, as a direct consequence of his position as narrator, than anyone else.

It's like the exact opposite of The Great Gatsby.

[Jintor]

To modify my theory, maybe it's more that there can only be one Main Character at any given point in a story, and characters are moved in and out of the position as is narratively convenient? Acc. Kaisos (i haven't watched FMA the anime) in order for Al to be the main character role, Ed had to not be the main character. So perhaps it's more of a roving spotlight than a permenant feature, if you get my drift.

[Joe4evr]

Originally Posted by Jintor

To modify my theory, maybe it's more that there can only be one Main Character at any given point in a story, and characters are moved in and out of the position as is narratively convenient?

You still end up with more than one Main Character for the series as a whole.

[Jintor]

Ah, but then they don't become the Main Character, they just occupy the position for a given amount of time. It's like, if a group continually switches who the person in the position of leader is, you don't get lots of leaders; you get a leader and a bunch of ex-leaders, and they just keep swapping around.

It's all Semantics anyway, because Haruhi always has Kyon as the viewpoint character.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jintor

To modify my theory, maybe it's more that there can only be one Main Character at any given point in a story, and characters are moved in and out of the position as is narratively convenient? Acc. Kaisos (i haven't watched FMA the anime) in order for Al to be the main character role, Ed had to not be the main character. So perhaps it's more of a roving spotlight than a permenant feature, if you get my drift.

Well, I doubt that your theory has universal application, but your theory may apply to this anime and novel franchise at least. If we use your theory...


Novel 1 - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is probably Kyon.


Novel 2 - The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is probably Haruhi. This is where she is most of a catalyst, both directly and indirectly. This may also be the novel where Kyon's narration focuses on Haruhi the most.


Novel 4 - The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is perhaps Nagato (she is the cause of the major disturbance in this novel, after all).

Snow Mountain Syndrome and Where Did the Cat go - You could actually argue that Koizumi is the main character in these two. Because he's the one that sets up the New Year's Eve trip, and basically provides running commentary on it. He really is almost like a game-show host, lol.

And, from what I understand, Mikuru does get a focus put on her in the later novels as well.


As an aside, your theory definitely applies to Star Trek, where it was common to have many episodes focusing on one or two particular crew members.

[SgtHydra]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, I doubt that your theory has universal application, but your theory may apply to this anime and novel franchise at least. If we use your theory...


Novel 1 - The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is probably Kyon.


Novel 2 - The Sigh of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is probably Haruhi. This is where she is most of a catalyst, both directly and indirectly. This may also be the novel where Kyon's narration focuses on Haruhi the most.


Novel 4 - The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - The main character is perhaps Nagato (she is the cause of the major disturbance in this novel, after all).

Snow Mountain Syndrome and Where Did the Cat go - You could actually argue that Koizumi is the main character in these two. Because he's the one that sets up the New Year's Eve trip, and basically provides running commentary on it. He really is almost like a game-show host, lol.

And, from what I understand, Mikuru does get a focus put on her in the later novels as well.


As an aside, your theory definitely applies to Star Trek, where it was common to have many episodes focusing on one or two particular crew members.

The focus character is different than the main character.

In my own honest opinion, there isn't any definate main character.

Kyon is basically a cameraman that won't shut up, though we all love him for that.
Haruhi is more or less an actual main character that gets bored sometimes and wanders off the set. Since she doesn't have the spotlight for a long enough time, she can't be called "the" main character.
Nagato is a classic silent (or stoic) side character, following in the footsteps of Rei Ayanami in this role.
Mikuru I could care less about, but honestly she is a typical "moe" side character (I say she's more of a femme fatale than anything else).
Koizumi gives me the creeps.
Tsuruya is pretty much another show's main character that is getting a cameo.

And that pretty much covers everyone with enough screen time to make a case for. None of them are true main characters, the last four especially.

Of course, this is Haruhi we're talking about. Tanigawa isn't exactly known for playing his tropes straight down the line like everybody else.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SgtHydra

The focus character is different than the main character.

In my own honest opinion, there isn't any definate main character.

Kyon is basically a cameraman that won't shut up, though we all love him for that.
Haruhi is more or less an actual main character that gets bored sometimes and wanders off the set. Since she doesn't have the spotlight for a long enough time, she can't be called "the" main character.
Nagato is a classic silent (or stoic) side character, following in the footsteps of Rei Ayanami in this role.
Mikuru I could care less about, but honestly she is a typical "moe" side character (I say she's more of a femme fatale than anything else).
Koizumi gives me the creeps.
Tsuruya is pretty much another show's main character that is getting a cameo.

And that pretty much covers everyone with enough screen time to make a case for. None of them are true main characters, the last four especially.

Of course, this is Haruhi we're talking about. Tanigawa isn't exactly known for playing his tropes straight down the line like everybody else.

That is a neat way of looking at it. I particularly like your take on Tsuruya... it really does fit with how she's used in this novel and anime franchise.

[AmyElizzabeth]

I don't think Disappearance was about Nagato.
It was about Kyon and his epic adventure to get back to his real dimension, with the help of his (now altered) friends.
I don't think Nagato was what the story was about. Granted, she was probably the second main character in this story, but since It focused on Kyon, I'll say It's about Kyon.

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That is a neat way of looking at it. I particularly like your take on Tsuruya... it really does fit with how she's used in this novel and anime franchise.

But I've been saying that forever! D:

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I'd say she's more of a fan character based largely on Haruhi, but that's just me. What does this have to do with speculation, anyway?

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Who's the main character in the Superman/Batman comic?

Bad example. Batman is always the main character. In everything. In the current DC storyline, he's "dead". But he's still the main character.

You know, I think I finally understand your Haruhi argument, although I still disagree. See, she's no Batman.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Haruhi's abilities are the center of the story... not Haruhi's character. Although one is an extension of the other, I feel that Haruhi-as-a-character is extremely unimportant compared to Haruhi-as-a-god.

^ This. Perfectly stated.

This is what I was getting at with the characters' personal (read "emotional") foci. The SOS-dan members didn't show up because of Haruhi's supposed magnetic personality. They were there due to her powers. Now, that's still the primary reason they are there, but the only major additional reason (except for Itsuki, who may or may not have a thing for Haruhi) is Kyon. Yuki (and again, maybe Itsuki—can't really tell) definitely has personal feelings for him, and he's Mikuru's all-important personal cheat code/plot coupon (finish Volume 7 already, Trip). And in later books he especially becomes a focus for some new characters, which will probably help you to understand my seeing "Mary-Sue-like" qualities in him.

[Triple_R]

Recently finished the Prologue for Novel 7. Was debating if it was worth reviewing on its own. After discussing it over with another AS regular here that's read through all the novels, I decided that it probably was (like that person said, the Prologue is about the length of a chapter, anyway). So, some brief points. Spoiler space to save space...

Spoiler for Novel 7 Prologue:

1. Nothing quite gets Kyon rushing heroically into action like fixing the time-line does. I haven't seen a character that passionate over time-line purity since Sam Backett in Quantum Leap. If there's ever a live-action Haruhi movie, maybe Scott Backula should play the role of Kyon. I kid, I kid!

The Kyon narration was solid, though perhaps a bit long-winded in spots. Kyon did a great job of describing what time travel feels like, though. It's easy to visualize, and imagine.


2. Mikuru was wrote pretty well here. Both "regular" and "big". Her regular self wasn't terribly useful, but it was touching to see how much she genuinely cares about Kyon.


3. Nagato showed real emotion here. That one line where she said "I don't want to" was a significant turning point for her character, I think. Overall, I liked how Nagato was handled.


4. Koizumi was typical Koizumi. Plenty of fancy theories and good exposition, while making the reader wonder what Koizumi really wants... In this particular case, though, the exposition was genuinely quite helpful, if not outright necessary, at least for me. It crystallized the situation a bit in my mind. The reason being that...


5. Phew... was this Disappearance mop-up operation ever hard to follow at times. Once we get into the major showdown itself, it's just a real mess of characters, alternate versions of characters, older versions of characters... really hard to keep track of. Tanigawa is meticulously careful in how he wrote the scene, to his credit, but I still found it hard to keep track of everybody. So, again, I was sincerely thankful for Koizumi putting it all into perspective.


6. Nice touch in showing a bit of the scene of how Haruhi, Mikuru, and Koizumi reacted to Kyon's fall. This was a good way of incorporating Haruhi a bit more into a story that had to essentially leave her out of much of it, for obvious reasons. It showed her loyal friend side again, and quite effectively.


7. Haruhi is pretty much a walking calender, isn't she? Amazing how she keeps all of these special calender days in mind. If Kyon settles down with Haruhi, he sure as hell better remember the date of the wedding anniversary... The celebration itself was nice and simple and straightforward. A good way to close out the Prologue story.


Aside from these general observations, one major critique...

1. This is perhaps inevitable given the type of story that Tanigawa is telling here, but... as I wrote above, this really felt like a mop-up operation to me. There was just no sense of drama or suspense at all; a situation exacerbated by how Asakura was useless (I'm starting to see where Kogetsu gets that idea from...) and Alt!Yuki didn't really put up a fight either. If this gets animated, I honestly wouldn't mind KyoAni taking some liberties, and juicing up the struggle a bit. Like, at least let Asakura put up some sort of real struggle against Nagato et al.


Anyway, that's all for this one, unless I think of something later.

8/10 for the prologue.

Some nice bits, but due to the predictability combined with it being a bit hard to follow it times, I didn't find it as enjoyable as the stories that immediately proceeded it (chronologically within the Haruhi universe, I should say).

Well, that's all for this one. Hope people took something form my review at least.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Bad example. Batman is always the main character. In everything. In the current DC storyline, he's "dead". But he's still the main character.

If you're joking here, and just being a big Batman fan, a smilie would help, but it's fine.

If you're serious here, you underestimate Superman's importance as a character.

You know, I think I finally understand your Haruhi argument, although I still disagree. See, she's no Batman.

Nor is Kyon.

^ This. Perfectly stated.

I'm going to be frank here; both you and Kaisos have been very critical of Haruhi's character... and frankly (and especially after recently reading Novels 5 and 6), I don't quite see why.

So... it's not surprising at all to me that both you and Kaisos hold a low view of Haruhi's quality and value as a character, apart from her God-like powers, imo.

There's no question that Haruhi was guilty of some awful behavior pre-Disappearance, but she comes across pretty well post-Disappearance. Honestly, she's a bit of a caring sweetheart post-Disappearance.

If a character moves past earlier transgressions, I tend to forgive him or her for it, unless it's something hugely bad.

This is what I was getting at with the characters' personal (read "emotional") foci. The SOS-dan members didn't show up because of Haruhi's supposed magnetic personality. They were there due to her powers. Now, that's still the primary reason they are there, etc...

I somewhat disagree. I think that they're growing to like Haruhi for who she is.