Nanoha Manga Discussion

[00-Raiser]

In regards to Hayate, there was a chapter in the manga where she explains extactly what her rank means. I forget which chapter it is, though...

[prescience]

StrikerS manga chapter 10. Page 17.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Damn slow internet connection...

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Bottom line: Tsuzuki TSAB slaps letter ranks onto anything that it wants to make appear impressive, without there being any exact numeric calculus behind these "ranks".

Just like how he grants military promotions like candy, I guess?

Y'know what? I think I'll just buy the "threat level" theory, that's what Tsuzuki probably intended anyway. "Meh, those guys are C-ranks, they're Cannon Fodders." "Oooh, that girl is A-rank, be very careful!". Something like that...

Hmm, maybe this is how they categorize them:
SS- Superweapon Spammer!
A- Almost Awesome
B- Better than nothing, I guess
C- Cannon Fodder
D- Designated Victims

[al103]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Yuuno's actually only an A rank mage.

If Hayate would take combat (Air or Ground) instead of synthetic she would be lower than SS. Likewise mage with good skills outside of combat like Yuuno would rank higher if he would take synthetic test.

[Keroko]

That's all just speculation though.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Just like how he grants military promotions like candy, I guess?

Yeah. Kinda like 19-year-old Lieutenant Colonels. IRL Lt.Col.s command battalions of a thousand men, you don't give that kind of power to someone who's barely out of basic cadet training... -__- Even with all the justification like "crazy mana output = fast-track to promotion", it just isn't right.

Y'know what? I think I'll just buy the "threat level" theory, that's what Tsuzuki probably intended anyway. "Meh, those guys are C-ranks, they're Cannon Fodders." "Oooh, that girl is A-rank, be very careful!". Something like that...

Hmm, maybe this is how they categorize them:
SS- Superweapon Spammer!
A- Almost Awesome
B- Better than nothing, I guess
C- Cannon Fodder
D- Designated Victims

Yepp, that makes more sense to me than the entire magic rank discussion on the past few pages. And every other magic rank discussion I witnessed. Combined.

[Kaijo]

Most of this is speculation. All we know for sure is that mage ranks are tested. Apparently, you can observe and guess that someone like Fate seems to output at AAA levels, but it's just a rough estimate. Given that she went up to S+, it meant that the AAA estimate was a bit off. And of course, it's likely both Nanoha and Fate could have gone higher, but they stopped taking tests (Nanoha stopped due to her injury, and Fate stopped along with her).

So mage ranks are mainly test only.

Magic point values are things you can measure, apparently, but that's different than a rank.

And of course, spell ranks are different and are more accurate given that assign specific value ranges to speed, control, and power.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Most of this is speculation. All we know for sure is that mage ranks are tested. Apparently, you can observe and guess that someone like Fate seems to output at AAA levels, but it's just a rough estimate. Given that she went up to S+, it meant that the AAA estimate was a bit off.

Or it means that she grew stronger. Just because she was measured at AAA when she was nine doesn't mean that was the upper level of her potential.

Really, there's no visible difference between measurements and test ranks. Again, Fate was measured at AAA. Then she did a test, and what was she awarded? AAA rank. Only now it had the 'official' stamp. Which is really the only difference we know off. The stamp.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Or it means that she grew stronger. Just because she was measured at AAA when she was nine doesn't mean that was the upper level of her potential.

Really, there's no visible difference between measurements and test ranks. Again, Fate was measured at AAA. Then she did a test, and what was she awarded? AAA rank. Only now it had the 'official' stamp. Which is really the only difference we know off. The stamp.

Not quite true. Because the measurement put them at AAA rank, but after testing, they officially became S+. The measurement was wrong. Measurement is only good for magic point values, and even those don't tell the full tale. Fate had a higher magic point value, but Nanoha still beat her.

There is a very good reason for this, as Chrono pointed out: rank really doesn't mean much compared to skill. So there's no real reason to apply any kind of ranking system to computer measurements. Instead, ranks are just like certificates. You apply for them, and if you pass, you are granted the license.

In short, applying ranks based on measurement is pointless.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Not quite true. Because the measurement put them at AAA rank, but after testing, they officially became S+.

No they didn't. Nanoha and Fate were AAA ranked after testing, madam superintendant of the Ground Forces' words. They didn't become S rank until StrikerS came around, which is at least a good six years later. More then enough time to grow.

Also, Chrono never said 'rank really doesn't mean much compared to skill' he said that power doesn't mean everything. Which is a rather different thing entirely. And he was referring to a completely different measurement too, so his quote is rather irrelevant in this case. You might say there's no real reason to apply any kind of ranking system to computer measurements, but clearly the TSAB thinks differently, since they use ranks for darn near everything. Power, speed, range, casting time, difficulty, everything.

It really is just a powerlevel system no matter how you look at it. Why make it more complicated then it needs to be?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

No they didn't. Nanoha and Fate were AAA ranked after testing, madam superintendant of the Ground Forces' words. They didn't become S rank until StrikerS came around, which is ten years later. More then enough time to grow.

Source? Because from what I recall, they stopped taking rank tests after Nanoha's injury. So they had to have been S+ before that.

Also, Chrono never said 'rank really doesn't mean much compared to skill' he said that power doesn't mean everything. Which is a rather different thing entirely. You might say there's no real reason to apply any kind of ranking system to computer measurements, but clearly the TSAB thinks differently, since they use ranks for darn near everything. Power, speed, range, casting time, difficulty, everything.

Some things it makes sense to apply a ranking to, like the speed of a spell; that's something that can be measured accurately.

But trying to apply a single rank to a mage taking into account all factors, doesn't do the mage justice. There is too many variables. In that case, it makes more sense for rank to just be the certificate of a test that the mage passes.

Another way to phrase what they said on the Arthra which makes everything line up nicely, is that Nanoha and Fate "look like they have the level of a AAA-rank mage." This keeps rank as test-only, but allows some room to estimate based on multiple measurements and visual observation. And it keeps in line with logical reasoning that it's fairly pointless to apply a single letter to a mage as a system of measurement; to do so doesn't really tell you much.

It's like saying a football player is B-class. What does that even mean? Football players have many varying skills and attributes, that even if you measured how fast they ran, how far they threw or kicked a ball, you can't fit that all into a single letter, so it's practically useless as a measurement. A single letter doesn't tell you much; only gives a vague idea of power, so it's a bad way to measure something.

To do so would make the TSAB look rather stupid, which I suppose is one valid view. I guess I just prefer taking the explanation that doesn't make them look rather stupid.

[prescience]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Source? Because from what I recall, they stopped taking rank tests after Nanoha's injury. So they had to have been S+ before that.

A's manga, chapter 2, page 16. *SNIP*
It bugs me that the A's Nano fancomic is labelled as an official part of the manga >_>

Some things it makes sense to apply a ranking to, like the speed of a spell; that's something that can be measured accurately. (snip)

So basically, a mage rank is a (necessarily) vague powerlevel. I don't see any need for disagreement here.

Oh, and has anyone read ch10 of the Movie manga? I'm really not sure what to make of it anymore...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Source? Because from what I recall, they stopped taking rank tests after Nanoha's injury. So they had to have been S+ before that.

Nanoha and Fate stopped sparring with eachother after Nanoha's injury (Fate being worry-warting and all). Nanoha didn't take her S rank test until after she was healed of her injury. Fate herself passed the test a year later.

So Nanoha and Fate didn't pass the S rank test until they already served in the bureau for at least a two years, three in Fate's case. The bureau tested Fate prior to her even joining the bureau (A's manga).

Conclusion? Nanoha and Fate were AAA ranked, and grew in power over the years.

Source.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Some things it makes sense to apply a ranking to, like the speed of a spell; that's something that can be measured accurately.

But trying to apply a single rank to a mage taking into account all factors, doesn't do the mage justice. There is too many variables. In that case, it makes more sense for rank to just be the certificate of a test that the mage passes.

So you keep saying, but the TSAB, or heck, the entire magical world, thinks differently. And it hasn't exactly hampered them. The systems they use to scan ranks seem to be fairly accurate, Fate was scanned as AAA, and tested as AAA. Difference? None. Reasons to make things more complicated? None.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

To do so would make the TSAB look rather stupid, which I suppose is one valid view. I guess I just prefer taking the explanation that doesn't make them look rather stupid.

It's a simple powerlevel system! You know, "Oh crap! That guy is S-rank! Run for it!" Stuff like that. A simple way for the viewer to see that character A is packing dynamite. Yeesh, must everything result in a 'this makes the TSAB look stupid' debate these days?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Nanoha and Fate stopped sparring with eachother after Nanoha's injury (Fate being worry-warting and all). Nanoha didn't take her S rank test until after she was healed of her injury. Fate herself passed the test a year later.

So Nanoha and Fate didn't pass the S rank test until they already served in the bureau for at least a two years, three in Fate's case. The bureau tested Fate prior to her even joining the bureau (A's manga).

Conclusion? Nanoha and Fate were AAA ranked, and grew in power over the years.

Source.

Okay, good. 4 years after A's, they pass a test for S rank, which is right after Nanoha recovered. So, technically speaking, Nanoha was S rank all along. Yet no one said she was S rank before that; they just estimated her power at AAA. So yes, the estimate was wrong.

And in all the years past that (6 years between then and StrikerS), they didn't get any stronger? At all? If they did, then the cast might refer to them as having the power of an SS-rank or more. They don't. They are referred to by the rank of the test they passed, not by their actual power level, just like everyone else. So rank is test only.

That was the whole big reason for episode 1 of StrikerS; no one said Teana and Subaru were B rank before the test. Yet, if they could measure people like you believe and determine a rank like that, there would be no real need for a rank test at all.

So you keep saying, but the TSAB, or heck, the entire magical world, thinks differently. And it hasn't exactly hampered them. The systems they use to scan ranks seem to be fairly accurate, Fate was scanned as AAA, and tested as AAA. Difference? None. Reasons to make things more complicated? None.

Hampered? No. But we're not talking about the real effects, just the reasons behind them. As I stated, it makes no sense to assign a single letter to a mage otherwise, except just for rank tests.

Let's take Bob. Bob is a mage. I tell you that Bob is A rank. What does that tell you about Bob? Answer: Not much. You can only guess at a vague power level.

As we've noted, if a AA ranked granny can take down two AAA (or S) ranked mages at once, then ranking really doesn't mean much. It's a piss poor system for measuring a mages power. Thus, the only logical explanation for the TSAB using it, is how they've already described it to us: Just a general way mages can prove how strong and capable they are by passing tests.

Sorta like how I have an MSCE certificate above my desk. My actual skill with Microsoft systems can differ quite a bit with someone else who has the same certificate, and they might be able to run loops around me; but we have the certificate just as a ranking system to show others what we are capable of. That's all the rank system is, and thus pointless to use as a direct measurement.

It's a simple powerlevel system! You know, "Oh crap! That guy is S-rank! Run for it!" Stuff like that. A simple way for the viewer to see that character A is packing dynamite. Yeesh, must everything result in a 'this makes the TSAB look stupid' debate these days?

But as Chrono showed, rank is pointless that way; He took down Fate easily, just like AA-Granny took down Nanoha and Fate. The difference in capability was blatantly obvious, so the ranking system didn't work too well as a measurement system in that regard.

And perhaps "stupid" is a bad way to phrase it; more like logically reasoning out the best explanation for why the TSAB does something, or handles things a certain way. I can't imagine them using rank as a direct measurement, because it's too simplistic and vague. They can take readings like magic point values, actual output that they can physically measure, and perhaps estimate how high of a rank someone might go based on those measurements; but it doesn't make sense to use rank a direct estimate when we've seen lower ranked people take down higher ranked people.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Okay, good. 4 years after A's, they pass a test for S rank, which is right after Nanoha recovered. So, technically speaking, Nanoha was S rank all along. Yet no one said she was S rank before that; they just estimated her power at AAA. So yes, the estimate was wrong.

Can you give me any source whatsoever that she was S rank all along? Cause Fate is kinda proving that the 'estimates' were correct.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Hampered? No. But we're not talking about the real effects, just the reasons behind them. As I stated, it makes no sense to assign a single letter to a mage otherwise, except just for rank tests.

Let's take Bob. Bob is a mage. I tell you that Bob is A rank. What does that tell you about Bob? Answer: Not much. You can only guess at a vague power level.

What it tells me is that B rank Jack shouldn't bullrush into the fight. That's already a lot more information then we'd have if we'd only known that some mage named Bob was there.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

As we've noted, if a AA ranked granny can take down two AAA (or S) ranked mages at once, then ranking really doesn't mean much. It's a piss poor system for measuring a mages power. Thus, the only logical explanation for the TSAB using it, is how they've already described it to us: Just a general way mages can prove how strong and capable they are by passing tests.

And yet we've already established that this system is used for measuring anything under the sun as well, even mages who aren't measured, and that said measures tend to be rather accurate.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But as Chrono showed, rank is pointless that way; He took down Fate easily,

Chrono is a pointless comparison considering Fate used him as an example to point out that even the difference between AAA and AAA+ is already a vast gulf.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

just like AA-Granny took down Nanoha and Fate. The difference in capability was blatantly obvious, so the ranking system didn't work too well as a measurement system in that regard.

It did work. They were more powerful, and thus the teacher used caution and attacked the areas in which they were weakest instead of facing them from the front.

It's a simple thing, really. Ranks work like how ranks work. The higher the better, but just like with any power, if you don't know how to use it someone who does has the edge. That doesn't mean the power itself is worthless though, nor the ranking of it.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And perhaps "stupid" is a bad way to phrase it; more like logically reasoning out the best explanation for why the TSAB does something, or handles things a certain way.

I can agree with doing this, in fact I do this myself very often (for example, I recently debated several reasons why giving kids weapons makes fighting safer in Vivid), but it only works as long as the idea doesn't contradict the source material. Which your explanation does. Badly.

Mage ranks in Nanohaverse are simply used as power levels. That's how the system works. Some people find ways around it, but that's the usual genius fighter thing. David versus Goliath and all.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Can you give me any source whatsoever that she was S rank all along? Cause Fate is kinda proving that the 'estimates' were correct.

If she had the capability to pass the S rank test, then she was technically S rank before the test. All Fate did was pass the AAA-rank test. Remember, they estimated earlier that she looked AAA, so it probably seemed a reasonable place to start. I presume that if they said that she looked AA rank before, she would have taken that test first.

And yet we've already established that this system is used for measuring anything under the sun as well, even mages who aren't measured, and that said measures tend to be rather accurate.

There's a clear difference in the very measurable aspect of a spell's speed, and the overall capability of a mage who has access to numerous spells and abilities. One is quite simple, while the other is considerably more complex. It's like saying, "The stadium is A-rank." It doesn't tell you much about the stadium, other than perhaps a general size. No details, which as we've determined, are very important.

Chrono is a pointless comparison considering Fate used him as an example to point out that even the difference between AAA and AAA+ is already a vast gulf.

Afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with you there; I don't see any reason to see those two ranks as having a "vast gulf" between them. If anything, it's skewered the other way; Amy said Nanoha and Fate had much higher magic point values than Chrono. It's a funny measurement system, where you can rank person A higher than person B, despite the computer telling you that person B has a higher number measurement according to the computer.

Same thing with Teana and Vice; Vice was B+ and Teana was B(at the time of StrikerS), but Teana supposedly had twice the magic point values. The actual measurement has no bearing on the rank itself.

It did work. They were more powerful, and thus the teacher used caution and attacked the areas in which they were weakest instead of facing them from the front.

So you believe that, if the teacher was ranked higher, she just would have gone in guns blazing and overpowered them? Because what you say sounds a little off if you listen to it: "The mage rank system was successful at predicting capability, by evidence of the fact that two people of higher rank were defeated by someone of lower rank!" If that happened to me, I'd have to rethink my measurement system, so that it accounted for the fact that the granny was measurement as much stronger than the two girls.

I can agree with doing this, in fact I do this myself very often, but it only works as long as it doesn't contradict the source material. Which your explanation does. Badly.

With the way you want to explain things, you have to disregard the actual number measurement from the computer. I don't really see how you can use rank as a measurement, when it contradicts the actual number measurement they took. If there is a discrepancy between letter and numbers, that would be my cue to rethink how my measurement system goes. What you want to say is: "I will disregard the actual measurement in favor of the vague one."

Anyway, I don't want to drag this out in the manga thread, so this will be my last post on this subject for now (may comment again if this subject comes up again sometime int he future, heh). So if you want to respond to this and have the last word, feel free.^^

So, to sum up, I'll just restate my point that, based on the difference between magical point value readings which come from an actual computer measurement, and the rank estimate, I have to conclude that mage ranks are test only. You can use them to estimate someone's overall capability based on actual measurements like magic point values, but mage ranks are just a generalization and earned from tests, like certifications.

And I'll restate that I'm only referring to mage ranks, which I see as different from spell ranks (a whole 'nother subject, heh).

[CrowKenobi]

Okay, enough is enough!

Starting from this post, ANY link to a scan site will result in the post being DELETED and the poster being BANNED!

Rule 1.1 specifically forbids it and it will be enforced.



...and isn't the StrikerS manga licensed?

[Rising Dragon]

I don't recall any of the Nanoha mangas being licensed...

[Justin_Brett]

Weren't we talking about Vivid?

[TheShinySword]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I don't recall any of the Nanoha mangas being licensed...

Oddly enough the StrikerS manga is licensed.