Rozen Maiden Zurückspulen - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll [END]

[HosannaExcelsis]

Look, here's the truth: The original Rozen Maiden anime is ugly and vastly inferior in art design, character designs, and cinematography to the new anime. The character drama surrounding Jun and the atmosphere built up around his depressed life and Kirakishou's menace is much more interesting than comedic antics centered on stereotypical moe characters or the convoluted Alice Game. The soundtrack is better than that of the original anime's (though the original anime's was good), and is used really well as part of sound direction that's as good as it gets in anime. The saddest thing about the new Rozen Maiden is that it's tied to a franchise that's not worth the effort the anime staff put into it, and that's what both gave the anime its weaknesses and what prevented it from getting an enthusiastic reception from fans.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

The saddest thing about the new Rozen Maiden is that it's tied to a franchise that's not worth the effort the anime staff put into it

So you played the "(fill the blank) is commercial trash, but this is ART!" card. How many times I have seen that card played (in and outside anime forums) ...

[Dark Faith]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

Look, here's the truth

Heh.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

The original Rozen Maiden anime is ugly and vastly inferior in art design, character designs, and cinematography to the new anime.

I agree that it's inferior, but I wouldn't call it ugly. It's much older than this adaptation, so it's natural that there's differences in art style, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim it's downright ugly.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

The character drama surrounding Jun and the atmosphere built up around his depressed life and Kirakishou's menace is much more interesting than comedic antics centered on stereotypical moe characters or the convoluted Alice Game.

That's nothing more than a subjective opinion. I found the Alice Game to be far more interesting than Unwound Jun's dramatic life. And Suigintou made a much better villain than Kirashou, whose only talent was being overpowered for no reason and "dying" a stupid "death".

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

The saddest thing about the new Rozen Maiden is that it's tied to a franchise that's not worth the effort the anime staff put into it, and that's what both gave the anime its weaknesses and what prevented it from getting an enthusiastic reception from fans.

The saddest thing about the new Rozen Maiden is that it's barely Rozen Maiden anymore, the focus on Jun was simply too great compared to the dolls'.
Like I mentioned in the 12th episode thread, I feel that this story would've had a great deal more success if it had a different name and setting.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

Look, here's the truth: (...)

Jyanku.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

sound direction that's as good as it gets in anime.

No, it's not. I can even understand people liking this OST more (although fvck me if a lot of the 2nd half of OST disc2 wasn't composed for a Hollywood action movie instead of RM) but please do not say this poor sound direction was "as good as it gets in anime".

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

what prevented it from getting an enthusiastic reception from fans.

What about removing most of the fun from the source material (even in this arc)?

[Uberchu]

I seriously hope you guys aren't implying that the original anime was better than the manga. RMZ is a bad adaptation, but it still stands tall above other shows if only because the source is that good. The original anime butchered Suigintou's character, made Kanaria incompetent, and had one of the worst endings I've ever seen. The plot didn't have nearly as much depth and reminded me more of a battle shonen. I loved both, and the original is one of my favorites, but there's just no contest which one had a better story. Original anime just had a much better OST. It's not even funnier; the manga has plenty of comedy sprinkled in.

[HosannaExcelsis]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

So you played the "(fill the blank) is commercial trash, but this is ART!" card. How many times I have seen that card played (in and outside anime forums) ...

Well, this wouldn't be the first time an adaptation managed to improve on the source material (which I'm not calling trash in this case, by the way, since credit has to go to Peach-Pit for the good qualities of the story, particularly adult Jun's character, that the anime was able to capitalize on). Not that the anime was able to avoid all the problems of the source, since it wasn't able to retain the same quality when it went into the fantasy world in episodes 9-12 as it did with the earlier portions of the narrative in the real world.

Originally Posted by Dark Faith

I agree that it's inferior, but I wouldn't call it ugly. It's much older than this adaptation, so it's natural that there's differences in art style, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim it's downright ugly.

Age isn't an excuse, and certainly doesn't correlate to visual quality. Anime studios struggled a lot in the early period of adjusting to digital composition, which the first Rozen Maiden show suffered from, but there were shows around the same time that managed through excellent designs, art, and animation to overcome digital weaknesses, such as Wolf's Rain. The new Rozen Maiden showed a lot of visual creativity with such things as clever transitions and fabric textures.

That's nothing more than a subjective opinion. I found the Alice Game to be far more interesting than Unwound Jun's dramatic life. And Suigintou made a much better villain than Kirashou, whose only talent was being overpowered for no reason and "dying" a stupid "death".

I prefer fleshed-out characters with some psychological depth to them such as Jun and Saito as opposed to one-dimensional moe girl stereotypes as the Rozen Maidens tend to be. That's just me though; I realize there are people who feel differently.

The saddest thing about the new Rozen Maiden is that it's barely Rozen Maiden anymore, the focus on Jun was simply too great compared to the dolls'.
Like I mentioned in the 12th episode thread, I feel that this story would've had a great deal more success if it had a different name and setting.

That is part of the problem I was referring to; this show was very different to what franchise fans are accoustomed to. The story as it is can't be done with Rozen Maiden, yet at the same time those franchise ties that it felt obligated to entangle itself in detracted from the most interesting qualities of the story. I disagree with your assertion that this would have done better without the Rozen Maiden name, regardless of that this isn't the kind of story most anime fans are interested in.

Originally Posted by Horse

No, it's not. I can even understand people liking this OST more (although fvck me if a lot of the 2nd half of OST disc2 wasn't composed for a Hollywood action movie instead of RM) but please do not say this poor sound direction was "as good as it gets in anime".

I have no idea what you mean by the Hollywood comment, but I will say that the main advantage I see in the new soundtrack over the old is a greater variety in instrumentation and moods. As far as sound direction goes, I gather from your past comments that you wanted more music playing throughoutso there wouldn't be as much silence in the show. But just streaming music constantly, obviously telegraphing emotions in a bombastic fashion, is pretty lazy sound direction. Saving music for specific scenes allows it to have more impact and create a more effective mood when needed. Plus, "silence" isn't actually silent most of the time; there's a lot of use of ambient sound to flesh out the setting (city noises, background hums, sharp noises like a tea kettle going off). I'll link to this post I wrote in another forum that talks some about the level of detail paid to sound direction. But you are right that I shouldn't say it's as good as it gets, since Flowers of Evil recently did an even better job in this area.

What about removing most of the fun from the source material (even in this arc)?

That again goes to part of what I talking about, where the new Rozen Maiden was less comedic than franchise fans wanted. I understand why people would want that, though for myself I find the comedy of the franchise fairly weak and generic; the moments where the new series went into comedic deformation for gag purposes were some of my least favorite. (I did enjoy the shower battle though.)

[Horse]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

I have no idea what you mean by the Hollywood comment,

Listen to disc2 from the OST.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

I gather from your past comments that you wanted more music playing throughoutso there wouldn't be as much silence in the show. But just streaming music constantly, (...)

Not really but after reading that wall of text I have nothing more to say.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

The saddest thing about the new Rozen Maiden is that it's tied to a franchise that's not worth the effort the anime staff put into it, and that's what both gave the anime its weaknesses and what prevented it from getting an enthusiastic reception from fans.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

That again goes to part of what I talking about, where the new Rozen Maiden was less comedic than franchise fans wanted.

You said it yourself - it didn't have what the fans wanted. That was its weakness. Don't act surprised it's not as popular.

Originally Posted by Uberchu

I seriously hope you guys aren't implying that the original anime was better than the manga.

I like the manga a lot, but I do personally think nomad improved on it. They took what they had to work with at the time (not much) and made story and character arcs (simple as they were) where there were none in the source.

Originally Posted by Uberchu

(...)and had one of the worst endings I've ever seen.

It was in no way worse than the last 10 minutes of this show. (Ignoring the fact you can get the full version of it in the manga.) Also, Barasuishou's traumend death > Kirakishou's Zuruckspulen "death", IMHO.

But in the end - it doesn't really matter. The nomad adaptation is dead just like this one, most likely.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by Horse

It was in no way worse than the last 10 minutes of this show. (Ignoring the fact you can get the full version of it in the manga.) Also, Barasuishou's traumend death > Kirakishou's Zuruckspulen "death", IMHO.

But in the end - it doesn't really matter. The nomad version is dead just like this one, most likely.

Bara's death would have been amazing if it didn't also include Shinku's going full retard moment. As for 2013 RM's "ending," I hated it too. It teased another season when we know full well that's unlikely as hell. In general, 2013 RM was a failure as an adaptation, with it's most redeeming aspects being the ED. Atrocious pacing, scenes lacking the impact they had in the manga, and lack of comedy all weigh it down.

Although, I personally loved Kira's death. That "you don't need me?" was absolutely heartwrenching. Then they had to ruin it by making her explode, which I don't believe was explicitly shown in the manga. Shame on you DEEN.

[HosannaExcelsis]

Originally Posted by Horse

You said it yourself - it didn't have what the fans wanted. That was its weakness. Don't act surprised it's not as popular.

When did I say I was surprised? All I am is sad that my tastes do not align with the majority of anime fandom, and so make it more difficult for works that appeal to me to be made.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

When did I say I was surprised? All I am is sad that my tastes do not align with the majority of anime fandom, and so make it more difficult for works that appeal to me to be made.

The manga is popular. They just failed to adapt it properly.

[HosannaExcelsis]

I've read the manga. The anime is better.

[MCAL]

Having read the manga now, I'd say the lessening of comedy in the anime during the Kirakishou battle made it much better than the manga. In the anime, with voices attached to those moments, having Suiseiseiki vamping to the camera would have broke the tension a lot.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Uberchu

I seriously hope you guys aren't implying that the original anime was better than the manga. RMZ is a bad adaptation, but it still stands tall above other shows if only because the source is that good. The original anime butchered Suigintou's character, made Kanaria incompetent, and had one of the worst endings I've ever seen. The plot didn't have nearly as much depth and reminded me more of a battle shonen. I loved both, and the original is one of my favorites, but there's just no contest which one had a better story. Original anime just had a much better OST. It's not even funnier; the manga has plenty of comedy sprinkled in.

If there was some kind of equivalent for the oscar for anime and Zurückspulen was nominated or won and the Nomad adaption didn't I would say, ok, you have some base to say one was better than the other. But as it stands everything you say is subjective towards saying that improves/worsens the anime as a whole. What we do have are cold numbers of sales, so we know how much paying fans liked either.

Originally Posted by HosannaExcelsis

Well, this wouldn't be the first time an adaptation managed to improve on the source material (which I'm not calling trash in this case, by the way, since credit has to go to Peach-Pit for the good qualities of the story, particularly adult Jun's character, that the anime was able to capitalize on). Not that the anime was able to avoid all the problems of the source, since it wasn't able to retain the same quality when it went into the fantasy world in episodes 9-12 as it did with the earlier portions of the narrative in the real world.

You know, there was something bothering me about Zurückspulen story and I didn't realized what until I read DrCasey review, the whole growing out of the shell adult Jun did was already explored by Nomad in the previous anime, peach-pit just recycled the idea with adult jun but it is the same thing, no wonder I felt the story felt old as I was reading it.

Age isn't an excuse

Your disagreement is purely subjective, no cold facts that tells to show how worthless the improvements in CGI have been for anime over a 9 year period.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

If there was some kind of equivalent for the oscar for anime and Zurückspulen was nominated or won and the Nomad adaption didn't I would say, ok, you have some base to say one was better than the other. But as it stands everything you say is subjective towards saying that improves/worsens the anime as a whole. What we do have are cold numbers of sales, so we know how much paying fans liked either.

I, honest to God, hope you aren't resorting to sales to seriously prove that one thing is better than the other. Sales have never meant quality, never has, never will. For example, Shinsekai Yori is far superior to Psycho Pass despite being a complete flop. Using sales seems like a lazy argument, as if you can't even be bothered to discuss the merits of a show and instead pick out a few numbers.

You know, there was something bothering me about Zurückspulen story and I didn't realized what until I read DrCasey review, the whole growing out of the shell adult Jun did was already explored by Nomad in the previous anime, peach-pit just recycled the idea with adult jun but it is the same thing, no wonder I felt the story felt old as I was reading it.

Not true at all. Unwound Jun and Wound Jun have completely different problems. Wound Jun can't talk to people. Unwound Jun feels that his life is shit and will forever be shit, but he has no real problem actually talking with people. It's made even more heartbreaking when Shinku herself said that the world had no more possibilities, which drove home the point that Jun will always be a loser and pushed him to build a body for Kira.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Uberchu

I, honest to God, hope you aren't resorting to sales to seriously prove that one thing is better than the other. Sales have never meant quality, never has, never will. For example, Shinsekai Yori is far superior to Psycho Pass despite being a complete flop. Using sales seems like a lazy argument, as if you can't even be bothered to discuss the merits of a show and instead pick out a few numbers.

If you read carefully you will see I am simply avoiding the debate which is better because that is subjective, what I am saying is that one is more popular (by a wide margin) that the other because we have objective data.

Not true at all. Unwound Jun and Wound Jun have completely different problems. Wound Jun can't talk to people. Unwound Jun feels that his life is shit and will forever be shit, but he has no real problem actually talking with people. It's made even more heartbreaking when Shinku herself said that the world had no more possibilities, which drove home the point that Jun will always be a loser and pushed him to build a body for Kira.

You are grasping at straws, adult Jun can but does not talk to people, younger Jun could talk to people but resisted to leave his house (so obviously no one besides his sister and Tomoe could talk with him). Both Jun's felt their lives had gone to the trash and that there was nothing they could do to fixit, both of them were blind to the myriad possibilities open to them if they could just push ahead until the dolls entered their lives.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

You are grasping at straws, adult Jun can but does not talk to people, younger Jun could talk to people but resisted to leave his house (so obviously no one besides his sister and Tomoe could talk with him). Both Jun's felt their lives had gone to the trash and that there was nothing they could do to fixit,

Not true, Wound Jun couldn't even go to school without hyperventilating. The reason he can't talk to people is because he's paranoid that people are talking trash about him. Unwound Jun is different. He thinks other people are beneath him (ex. the people at the university, the manager). Yeah, both think their lives are shit, but that's an obvious similarity. Their reasons are totally different. Unwound Jun tried to change by studying and changing his looks. He failed and remained a loser.

both of them were blind to the myriad possibilities open to them if they could just push ahead until the dolls entered their lives.

It's a key theme of the series that Jun is destined to be a loser unless the Rozen Maidens come to motivate him.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Uberchu

Not true, Wound Jun couldn't even go to school without hyperventilating.

That is what I say, chibi jun can't leave his house, but if people visit him (i.e. Tomoe, who could be talking trash behind juns back for all he knows) he can talk to them.

The reason he can't talk to people is because he's paranoid that people are talking trash about him. Unwound Jun is different. He thinks other people are beneath him (ex. the people at the university, the manager)

... because he thinks/knows they talk trash about him, same thing.

Yeah, both think their lives are shit, but that's an obvious similarity. Their reasons are totally different.

I never said that both had the same reason to form a shell around them, I said they both lived in a shell (which obviously is different since the life of a ten year old is different from a 18(?) year old) so is the same plot.

Unwound Jun tried to change by studying and changing his looks. He failed and remained a loser.

Yoda's words, remember you must "There is no try, either you do or you don't". chibi jun changed (grew out of his cocoon) only to become an adult that trips over the exact same stone, stopped going to school, etc. instead of remembering what he had learned in the past and move forward. As I said, it is the exact same lesson, the exact same plot, so far what has been scanlated of the manga shows little creativity, if there had never been an anime I would have never started to read peach-pits rozen maiden.

Originally Posted by Uberchu

It's a key theme of the series that Jun is destined to be a loser unless the Rozen Maidens come to motivate him.

Not necessarily since unwound Jun could stop being a Hikkikomori without the help from the dolls, maybe it is the opposite, he becomes a loser that needs pampering only when the dolls appear >_<

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

That is what I say, chibi jun can't leave his house, but if people visit him (i.e. Tomoe, who could be talking trash behind juns back for all he knows) he can talk to them.

For one, he trusts Tomoe. They're childhood friends. Everyone else? He doesn't trust them at all.

... because he thinks/knows they talk trash about him, same thing.

No, Unwound Jun feels that he is alienated from everyone else. He doesn't fit in. He's gotten over the paranoia of people talking trash, but now the problem is that, in his mind, everyone is goofing off and talking about meaningless crap. For example, he detests the people at the university not for talking trash about him but for goofing off.

I never said that both had the same reason to form a shell around them, I said they both lived in a shell (which obviously is different since the life of a ten year old is different from a 18(?) year old) so is the same plot.

So every story where the character is isolated from society is the same now? If you generalize that much every story is the same.

Yoda's words, remember you must "There is no try, either you do or you don't". chibi jun changed (grew out of his cocoon) only to become an adult that trips over the exact same stone, stopped going to school, etc. instead of remembering what he had learned in the past and move forward. As I said, it is the exact same lesson, the exact same plot,

He stopped going to school because it wasn't for him. That's what the manager said to him in the final episode. Also, what do you mean by "the exact same stone...what he had learned in the past?" He learned nothing relevant from being cooped up at home. He went to school and still got rejected. He goes to work, tries hard, and still gets alienated from society. He never realizes that he is subconsciously limiting himself until the Rozen Maidens come.

[Triple_R]

For all the comparisons and contrasts that are made between Rozen Maiden Zurückspulen, and the much older Rozen Maiden anime shows, I wonder if Zurückspulen's sales troubles might simply be due to how the tastes of anime fans have changed since Rozen Maiden's hayday.

Keep in mind that Rozen Maiden came to prominence just before LN and VN adaptations really took off, and if you look over the history of various moe competitions, I think you can see how LNs/VNs had a dramatic impact on what was considered "moe" amongst anime fans.

The sort of shows that were prominent (or came to prominence) around the same time as Rozen Maiden included shows like Mari-Mite and Kannazuki no Miko and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. It was a period when Yamato Nadeshikos, and a sort of bourgeois moe, were frequently seen along with Victorian England-esque attire and "pure maidens".

You don't see quite as much of that anymore in anime, I find, and I think that the rise of LN and VN adaptations might be part of the reason why.

In other words, the style and aesthetics of the Rozen Maidens themselves has perhaps faded a bit. I don't see that "poetic tortured soul" gothic-style girl played straight as much as I used to. Yes, you have Ore no Imouto's Kuroneko and Chuunibyou's Rikka, but there's a certain tongue-in-cheek element to it that you don't see with Suigintou and her master who are played totally straight.

Perhaps the style and sensibilities of Rozen Maiden are now simply out of fashion. It can happen. You don't see a lot of Spike Spiegel's around any more either.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For all the comparisons and contrasts that are made between Rozen Maiden Zurückspulen, and the much older Rozen Maiden anime shows, I wonder if Zurückspulen's sales troubles might simply be due to how the tastes of anime fans have changed since Rozen Maiden's hayday.

Rozen Maiden's manga still sells well. I blame DEEN for the recap and doll shrinking.