Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

There's no guarantee that there will be any nobles in a 'gambling den'. From the nature of the 'gambling', it was just a place where people played chess for money, and large sums tend to be the exception, if Rivalz's words are to be believed. Lelouch is good at chess, and plays it as a hobby. Where exactly do you get 'Lelouch was plotting to take down Britannia by beating its nobles at chess!' from?

Because it was mentioned in one of the extra media that he was saving all the money he won so that it could become a large enough account to help fund his rebellion to some degree. I don't really think he could have raised enough myself, but that was his plan.

Rivalz himself made a comment abotu what he planned to do with the money and Lelouch sort of shrugged the question off.

[tbl]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Because it was mentioned in one of the extra media that he was saving all the money he won so that it could become a large enough account to help fund his rebellion to some degree. I don't really think he could have raised enough myself, but that was his plan.

But he could invest that money and making even more.

[Koshimizu]

Originally Posted by greyhawk

Anyway, the show would have been much more fun if they had told us beforehand how Lelouch used his Geass on the Britannian employee, like the last incident at the mall, while still staying under his cover. It just strikes me as odd that there can always be a Geassed dude anywhere, anytime that will get him out of a tough situation. Telling us after all the commotion isn't exactly convincing, and I'd argue that it's less entertaining that way, than making us wonder what he'd do with the Geassed dude.

It's not random. That dude was the one who gave him the forms when they're getting Rival's bike back.
And it's a waste of time to go into details on each and every geassing. All we need to know is who he geassed and how he did it.

[Dann of Thursday]

Hmm, I suppose so. I guess that given enough time the interest would have made the money grow as well.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by bbduece

This is the 1st time Lelouch has lost some points with me.

Spoiler for R2 episode 4:

But when i think about Rolo is just some monster killing machine with no hope right? The reason i didnt like the way they display Lelouch's ruthlessness is because they created an opportunity for me to feel sorry for this poor confuse kid that Lelouch is going to destroy (ceterus peribus). Euphie was different because it was an accident and Lelouch had no choice but to make good use of that hopeless outcome.

I dont want Lelouch to turn out like Light

Moral of the story, don't mess with Nanali. -_-

[Kamel]

Originally Posted by Marsala

The problem isn't that Nunnally might turn against Lelouch, it's that she might be willing to go to any extreme to make a world where they could live together. In R1, Nunnally tried to get Lelouch to make a kinder world for them... unfortunately he failed miserably, so now it's her turn.

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Intention aside, it often doesn't equal the consequences of ones actions in carrying on those intentions. Lelouch should know that better then anyone, which is why I'm afraid that whatever Nunnally does, even if she does still love her Oni-san, they way she'll go about expressing that love will bring a whole mess of trouble for everyone, including Lelouch >_>

So what you’re saying is that the real problem is that she might turn out to be a famale version of her brother

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Sorry, but you're missing the point. When exactly have I mentioned any 'scenario'? Lelouch has demonstrated selfish behaviour in the past. If he's ever in a similar situation, Lelouch will demonstrate the same behaviour in the future. That's all there is to it.

There's no guarantee that there will be any nobles in a 'gambling den'. From the nature of the 'gambling', it was just a place where people played chess for money, and large sums tend to be the exception, if Rivalz's words are to be believed. Lelouch is good at chess, and plays it as a hobby. Where exactly do you get 'Lelouch was plotting to take down Britannia by beating its nobles at chess!' from?

If he's ever in a similar situation.... that's a scenario right there Sol, there are no guarantees to that nor any inclination to the degree of selfish behavior that would enable him to say... pursue a relationship... just work within the context we're given alright? >_>

Dann summed this point up nicely in my book, look at the above post of this page to read it <_<

Originally Posted by Kamel

So what you’re saying is that the real problem is that she might turn out to be a famale version of her brother

If anything she'll be far, FAR worse

[Ice_Bullet]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

If he's ever in a similar situation.... that's a scenario right there Sol, there are no guarantees to that nor any inclination to the degree of selfish behavior that would enable him to say... pursue a relationship... just work within the context we're given alright? >_>

Dann summed this point up nicely in my book, look at the above post of this page to read it <_<



If anything she'll be far, FAR worse

i dont think rollo would be nunnally.. i mean 1 is a girl while the other a guy.. unless the emperor's geass can make people see things.. lol

[vspirit]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

I completely disagree that Lelouch's actual goal is to make a world where Nunnaly can be safe. He's trying to create a world where she/he can't be USED.

Prior to him gaining geass for all accounts and purposes they were living a good life. Things like food, money and education were all provided for them in a relatively safe environment. Nunnaly appeared to be very happy at the school and they were surrounded by caring friends.

I'm sure it's been brought up before but safety/security can only come from a stable environment. What he did with the black knights was to introduce instability into the current environment.

I'm not saying Lelouch is doing the rebellion for all the wrong reasons though. A huge part of his personality is the fact he dislikes the way the 11's are being treated.

I've seen a similar argument before that was very convincing. In it, the person had written that Lelouch is so obsessed with making a world where Nunnally can live in peace, he failed to see that she was already perfectly happy with things the way they were.

In the end, however, I have to disagree. I'm of the mind that he's primarily doing it to carve a safe place that Nunnally, and himself, if fate allows, can live in that lasts. True, prior to his inciting the rebellion, he was living in relative ease with his sister but let's not forget the 'relative' aspect of it as peace and everything that came with it were taken from him and his sister not once, but twice before, and all from forces within his own country. Nunnally seems forgiving and would take peace whichever way it's given, but to Lelouch, that sort of peace is no different from scraps off a table. It won't last. It can't.

For who's to say that it won't happen again? As far as he was concerned, Britannia was the problem. As long as the empire is around, there could be no real peace for Nunnally and it is that, or something akin to that, he wants to give her. Let's not get into the argument of whether or not real peace exists because 1) it's too subjective and will bound to stray the discussion away from the topic at hand, and 2) I don't think that's what Lelouch's worrying about. To him, the only thing that's standing between him and the peace he wants to give Nunnally is the Holy Empire of Britannia because they kept taking it away every damn time he gets a little of it. And that, I think, above all else, is what drives his ambitions. At the end of episode 24-25, C.C. had mentioned that despite all the things Lelouch had done, be it good or bad, big or small, all of it was just to make a small, simple--childlike, even--wish of his come true. Wanting to free Japan is his big ambition to achieve that small wish, and not the wish itself as, if that were case, would you be able to define it as a small, simple wish? o.O;;

And everything else (i.e.: getting to the bottom of his mother's murder) are merely things he wants to achieve along the way. If my memory serves me right, he's also never explicitly said he wanted to eradicate war, either. It's never been on his list of Things To Do. With his level of intelligence, he should be able to easily see that that simply isn't possible. Comparatively, er, 'obliterating' (as the dub so fondly uses xD) an empire would yield a much higher probability. ^_~

On the subject of his 'perfect' altruism...I think it only really extends to as far as Nunnally. Everything he's done and is still doing, at the bottomline, it's all in her name. And even in that respect, there's still a hint of selfishness in it. What he's doing is noble and all, and even if her answer may not have changed his decision in the end, he still had never deigned to ask Nunnally what she wanted, and yet it is in her name that he wages a war and fights. That's also an act of selfishness, I think. (EDIT: he didn't ask, but she did explicitly wish for a kinder world. Forgot about that. I fully retract my comment on this subject. She may not condone his means to achieving that for her but it still doesn't change the fact that she /did/ make that wish.)

While he's not essentially a selfish person by any means, he's not selfless enough either to not be given to exercise small bouts of selfishness every now and then. Isn't that what the creators wanted? A flawed character? We're all selfish humans, one way or another. And it is on that platform, I think, that the creators based his characterization on.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Regarding Taniguchi's comments: even if Lelouch will always choose another person's happiness when it comes down to it (which is patently false, as we've seen that the only people whose happiness Lelouch cares particularly about are the people close to him), that doesn't preclude pursuing his own happiness when it doesn't come down to it. All I am saying is, when all of Lelouch's friends and family are happy, and everybody who Lelouch cares about is doing fine and dandy, then Lelouch will pursue the things that make him happy. Lelouch has pretty low standards for the sins and burdens he will take up and carry,

If that were true, that'd make him very, very altruistic indeed. More so than many of us can ever claim to be. So much so that if he were a real person, I wouldn't dream of criticizing him for it because I can never reach that level of altruism, even imperfect as it is, myself. ^^;

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

but the sum of those burdens is not insurmountable. Not only is there room for Lelouch to act for his own sake, he is not so self-defeating and broken as to not make use of it.

If he doesn't act for his own sake when there is clearly enough room to, that doesn't make him any less altruistic. It'd only make him stupid. But I do agree with you for the most part. =)

At the end of the day, though, it comes back a full circle, wouldn't you think? If he doesn't at least try to achieve happiness himself, how could he expect those whom he love, and who love him back, to? It applies to even those who live in the real world, does it not?

As for episode 4...it's noble of him to assume the evil mantle for what he considers as the greater good and all...and his seemingly downward spiralling morals make for an interesting development. However, I can't help but to see more and more of his old man in him. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing yet, though. It /is/ still only episode 4 after all. Still lots of room for twists, turns and other fascinating, fascinating development. =D

[SoldierOfDarkness]

[QUOTE=Marioshinobi;1563956]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The Emperor is 10x the man Lelouch is. A powerful man like him should't have to rely on his Geass all the time unless absolutely needed(Such as rewiring Lelouch's brain).[/QUOTE

O.o Leave this Board.

Your comparing a man who's leader of a country - To a guy who's vsing a country? and your telling me Lelouch should never use his Geass?
s.

Oye.

It was in reference to whether or not the Emperor geassed Nunally which I doubt he would do (is it necessary? Probably not).

I was also pointing out about the Geass being reserved for situations where you absolutely need it.

1. Rewiring Lelouch's brain.
2. Geassing soldiers/people to do your bidding, etc.

You mind telling me where I said Lelouch shouldn't use his Geass? In fact where did I say ANYTHING about Lelouch doing this or that? I just said that Charles should be 10x greater (in mind and strength) compared to Lelouch in comparison. This guy didn't get to the throne for nothing and he even MASTERED his geass (He can turn it on or off and if I recall correctly, mastering Geass isn't an easy thing to do).

Example - Blackmailing Rollo into helping him out. Did he need to use his geass there? No he didn't. In fact I prefer Lelouch rely less on his Geass because it's that "ace in the hole" if he ever needs it badly (Like geassing Suzaku into "living" and running away from that bombardment when he couldn't change his mind otherwise).

Is that a clear enough translation for you?

[Uncreativex]

One rather offtopic question, whats the limits for Lelouch's geass? Can't he just give a command like, "if you hear me, Zero/Lelouch say 'Lelouch wi Brittania commands you followed by a command, no matter what, you will follow it. If I say something not starting with "lelouch wi brittania commands you" you do not need to do it. Never try to kill/harm Zero/lelouch" to everyone he mets under four eyes and then pretty much have a eternal, vocal geass control over everyone?

[Masterkeyes2]

The Death Note comparisons are going to be the end of me I swear.....

At any rate I believe the idea of Lelouch's Geass that is like re-programming someone's mind to do "such-and-such" command. Some of them are active immediately or ongoing. Some require a key phrase like you said. The only "limits" from what I have read is that it has to be a reasonable command. Things that are impossible for someone like say "Doge this bullet at point blank range" won't work because its physically impossible unless you are Suzaku or Jesus.

[Aquaman OS]

Geass doesn't work if you ask someone to do something they aren't capable of doing don't understand what you mean or don't have the knowledge to do what you ask (though you could probably simplify it so they'd get it). Like how Cornelia and Clovis don't respond about Marianne because they don't know who did it.

Other than that presumably he could order anybody to do anything he asked (or order them to do something somebody else asks). We've yet to see him ask anybody to do something they couldn't do so we don't really know how that would work.

And I still want to know how the heck he Geassed himself. Reflecting it into his own eyes makes sense but since the Geassed person looks to be in a trance til given a command how did he manage to command himself when he shouldn't be able to speak.

[Masterkeyes2]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

And I still want to know how the heck he Geassed himself. Reflecting it into his own eyes makes sense but since the Geassed person looks to be in a trance til given a command how did he manage to command himself when he shouldn't be able to speak.

I think the idea for that is that "until he finishes his order" I imagine he can control that to a certain extent. Otherwise everyone he gessed would be acting on the first thing he asks. Like for example "Don't kill yourself", unless he had the power to control when he finishes ordering someone it would just be "Don't Kill".

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm new to Code Geass (read: I watched all the episodes to date for the first time over the last week), but I have to say that Lelouch really didn't live up to the hype I had heard about.

Part of it, of course, is deliberate. Lelouch/Zero can be entirely hypocritical in criticisms of Britania when trying to convince Suzaku to join him, when he does the exact same things himself to his own allies. And of course, some events are just accidents.

But really, forall his vaunted genius, Lelouch continues to be the definition of a man who would be twice as smart as he really is if he was half as smart as he thinks he is. This isn't to say that Lelouch is dumb, or that his tactics aren't brilliant, but he constantly overestimates his own abilities and underestimates his opponents, and his plans are continuously thrown into peril by mere chance or a single unexpected variable (in Season 1, that variable was Suzaku, though it was Arthur the cat in one of the earliest episodes). Lelouch constantly over-plans to the point that the slightest flaw can ruin everything, from his numerous failures to capture his half-sister to his multiple failures to turn Suzaku. Even the fate of Euphie and the massacre that followed is solely the result of his own gloating ego which constantly wavers the moment his friends are involved. When it comes to being a magnificent bastard, Lelouch falls well short of men like Ventari from Discworld.

He dissappoints me as a character, really. He goes through all the trouble of casting off old ties, and yet at the same time hesitates at crucial moments when his own weaknesses are displayed. Personally, I think the best poetic justice would be for Naanely to either lose her memories of her brother, or for her to learn what he's done in her name. Either would be a suitable reward for Lelouch.

[Dann of Thursday]

Wow, that's accurate enough to make me wonder why I even watch considering how he can be at times. His ego is probably one of his biggest obstacles and unfortunately I can never see that going away at any point.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Personally, I think the best poetic justice would be for Naanely to either lose her memories of her brother, or for her to learn what he's done in her name. Either would be a suitable reward for Lelouch.

Both of those are actually very likely. She will most definitely find out what he's doing in her name of she hasn't already. It's not known how she will react though. She might support it wholeheartedly.

As for her forgetting him, he might not mind that in the end as long as he's ensured her safety. Chances are if he succeeds he'll either be 1.Dead 2. Knee deep in Geass stuff with C.C. for the rest of his life. 3. In a leading postion of his new world (whether he wants to or not). Either way he won't be living a quiet peaceful life with Nunally in the end.

What would be poetic justice is if he realizes he's had Nunally pegged all wrong from day one and she's not nearly as innocent as she seems.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, I wouldn't say it's out of the question for him to be living with her in the end though it of course depends on what is going to happen in the end. I'm not too sure any of those options may occur. Chances are he will be done with C.C. completely upon fufilling her wish and that will be the last he sees of her. Dead is a possibility, but there are things making me think that won't happen. Him becoming leader seems somewhat possible though I'd personally find it odd.

Poetic justice would be Nunnally being more sinister than Lelouch thought her to be though. That would definitely screw him up.

[KrimzonStriker]

It's actually because he's shown humane moments at times that I can actually like him as well as I do. I mean, I'm rather glad he isn't a complete asshole or I couldn't really feel like I could support him. The fact that he can hesitate or retain some semblance of emotion despite constantly tainting himself is what makes him interesting to me, because I wonder if he could do what others couldn't and find a way to balance the two sides. Not to say he's perfect at it, but because he isn't at times it gives me some hope that things might just end well for him, that he doesn't become the monster he tried to fight like so many others, or lose his conviction in carrying on the fight half-way through.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Both of those are actually very likely. She will most definitely find out what he's doing in her name of she hasn't already. It's not known how she will react though. She might support it wholeheartedly.

We talking about the same girl here? Nunale, who worries about everyone and her entire family, who's been the perfect chaste princess for the knightly love of Suzaku and her brother? Nunale, who simply wants to be with her brother? If Nunale knew that Lelouch forced Euphie to massacre the Elevens wholesale, that Lelouch had murdered family members totally uninvolved in their Mother's death, and had betrayed friends and allies alike in her name, "support" would be about the farthest thing from her character type. Forgiveness she might manage, but support would run contrary to her entire character type.

As for her forgetting him, he might not mind that in the end as long as he's ensured her safety. Chances are if he succeeds he'll either be 1.Dead 2. Knee deep in Geass stuff with C.C. for the rest of his life. 3. In a leading postion of his new world (whether he wants to or not). Either way he won't be living a quiet peaceful life with Nunally in the end.

Lelouch has gone on crusade to rescue her and be with her again. Her complete forgetting of him would instantly make years of labor, bloody sacrafices, and dives into ever deeper darkness all for naught. Everything has been about protecting, avenging, and creating a future for his sister.

What would be poetic justice is if he realizes he's had Nunally pegged all wrong from day one and she's not nearly as innocent as she seems.

Outside of a parody, I doubt it. She's been too-far established as a maiden princess by this point, always needing her night(s) in armor to save her.



Edit: An back on the topic of Lelouch, I'm still trying to figure out how breaking Area 11 away from Britannia is supposed to lead to the destruction and collapse of the Empire. The loss of magical-liquid whatever is annoying, but Brittania had Nightmares before they invaded Japan. Meanwhile, however, Leluch will have saved the Empire the enormous costs of pacifying, fortifying, and colonizing a chain of islands so close to China. In exchange... Leluch will have gained an island chain that can't even feed itself unless one Superpower or another keeps open the sea lanes, where Britania has maintained naval dominance since the start of the series.