[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[luckyssol]

The letter in the bottle is the only thing that counters the natural disaster theory in my opinion.

[Ithekro]

In truth, anyone could have made that letter in a bottle. One just has to be able to dump it where it can be found.

Or be one of the survivors who had time to write it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

What if the "golden land" is the place where the gold is....something like a bomb shelter. If they went there, there are a few possibilities for why no one finds them

The golden land appears to be some kind of afterlife... the TIPS refer to it as though it's "hell".

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We also know that there are corpses that were never found, even though they weren't labeled as "missing" in the TIPS like Nanjo.

There's other stuff missing too, correct? Like the stakes in Ep3...

This kind of makes me think that the house was destroyed in some way. Could very well be a fire, but what on earth would destroy Maria's body so utterly as to only leave a jawbone? I guess a bomb would work... maybe there really is small bombs in the food...

Originally Posted by Ithekro

In truth, anyone could have made that letter in a bottle. One just has to be able to dump it where it can be found.

Or be one of the survivors who had time to write it.

I think that goes against the point of the letters, though...

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I get your point and I agree that there probably won't be a meta Beatrice in episode 6 but I guarantee that we'll see Beatrice in episode 6. Her magic world version is part of the game board and will always be there at the start of a new game regardless of her meta world version's status.

that's what i meant, actualy.

But it seems to be the case that if someone denies Beatrice's existence then she exists.

???? i don't get it??

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't like the idea of separating real Beatrice from metaBeatrice because of the promise Battler made in ep4.

If the two are one and the same, then Battler can simply kill the witch Beatrice while the real Beatrice will keep on living. In the other case, killing that Beatrice means she will die forever, or sleep forever like the epitaph says. In both cases is a bad ending :/

sounds like separate entities to me. if they were "the same" he couldn't do that.
like i said, there's probably the promise person she's originating from. but she's not quite the same as her.
and nobody had anything against piece!Battler and meta!Battler beeing like that.

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

i probably fail at getting my point across here.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The golden land appears to be some kind of afterlife... the TIPS refer to it as though it's "hell".

and everyone who survives go to the golden land later.
it kinda may sound like a hint for the fire theory...
and is it just me or the butterflies kinda look like flames. at least in the anime.

the whole epitaph has a "gold inetrpretation" and "magic interpretation", i think it's ok to view Golden Land as both afterlife (magic ver) and the place wher the gold is hidden (gold ver).
as far as i remember adults had the same thoughts as Ithekro when solving the epitaph.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

There's other stuff missing too, correct? Like the stakes in Ep3...

This kind of makes me think that the house was destroyed in some way. Could very well be a fire, but what on earth would destroy Maria's body so utterly as to only leave a jawbone? I guess a bomb would work... maybe there really is small bombs in the food...

Don't forget that it's not just the bodies in the mansion that are missing in Episode 3. Maria and Rosa in the rose garden proper and Natsuhi and Krauss in the arbor also disappeared, so Disaster X had to extend at least that far. Even the blood from Rosa's death was obliterated somehow. I don't think blowing up the mansion is enough to account for that, although one of the larger-scale options still works.

I think the most bizarre thing is what didn't disappear, though. I could see Mammon's stake surviving a large-scale disaster under some weird circumstances, but what about Maria's notebook? Didn't Maria have her handbag with her when she died? How did it survive when two bodies were destroyed/washed away/buried right next to it?

Before Episode 5 I was wondering if instead of a disaster, one of the murderers was acting on behalf of Mysterious Off-Island Group X. Group X could come onto the island early in the morning on October 6th and finish off all of the survivors. Eva would survive in Episode 3 by virtue of Group X not knowing where Kuwadorian is. It's skating pretty close to Knox's 1st Commandment now, but maybe this is still valid if Group X is the Sumadera family?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

???? i don't get it??

What I meant was if Battler didn't deny Beatrice at the start then none of these games would have ever happened.

[Used Can]

Well, no one in EP1 (other than servants) accepted Beatrice's existence - events of the Tea Party non-withstanding. In fact, by the end, it seemed Natsuhi even knew who the culprit was - well, that was my impression.

[kaitwospirit]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The letter in the bottle is the only thing that counters the natural disaster theory in my opinion.

Wasn't the letter in the bottle written in the same handwriting as the money letters and the writing in Maria's notebook?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by kaitwospirit

Wasn't the letter in the bottle written in the same handwriting as the money letters and the writing in Maria's notebook?

The message in the bottle handwriting and the money letters handwriting were the same but neither matched Maria's handwriting.

[kaitwospirit]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The message in the bottle handwriting and the money letters handwriting were the same but neither matched Maria's handwriting.

I don't mean Maria herself, I mean whoever also wrote in her notebook as Beatrice.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by kaitwospirit

I don't mean Maria herself, I mean whoever also wrote in her notebook as Beatrice.

To be honest I can't remember that scene with Ange and Nanjo's son. I think that's where they mention Beatrice's signature in Maria's book matched the letter in the bottle handwriting. I'll have to reread that chapter.

Edit: Here it is. When Ange was talking to Nanjo's son:

Spoiler for Handwriting:

[Used Can]

Personally, I think that a disaster would be a terrible way to finish the mystery. That'd be a variant of the Hinamizawa syndrome.

[Ithekro]

Even that can be man made.

Does the sender of the hundred million yen being Beatrice suggest Beatrice lived beyond the events of October 4th and 5th, 1986?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Even that can be man made.

Does the sender of the hundred million yen being Beatrice suggest Beatrice lived beyond the events of October 4th and 5th, 1986?

Those letters were sent on the third, I believe.

What it DOES suggest is that "Beatrice" is either Krauss, Natsuhi, Jessie, Nanjo, or any of the servants.

[kaitwospirit]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Even that can be man made.

Does the sender of the hundred million yen being Beatrice suggest Beatrice lived beyond the events of October 4th and 5th, 1986?

Doesn't help us with that. The money letters were sent out on October 3rd. The messages in a bottle all vary in content and all end with no survivors, so we don't know if their writer knew that Eva survived the 5th in episode three or not. So they don't provide any evidence either way, unfortunately.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by kaitwospirit

Doesn't help us with that. The money letters were sent out on October 3rd. The messages in a bottle all vary in content and all end with no survivors, so we don't know if their writer knew that Eva survived the 5th in episode three or not. So they don't provide any evidence either way, unfortunately.

Only the letters for Episodes 1 and 2 were discovered, if I recall correctly.

[kaitwospirit]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Only the letters for Episodes 1 and 2 were discovered, if I recall correctly.

In 1998, Ange talks to a Rokkenjima enthusiast who has seen the handwriting on one of the message bottles. He tells her that there were several letters found. This is in the episode three continuity. I don't know if there's any letter that directly corresponds to episode one or episode two, can't find that in the game script, but the point is that the messages in a bottle must have been written before the events of October 4-5.

[Ithekro]

....

So how would that work? A letter written before the "crimes" asking someone to find out what really happened, is sent out in a bottle, before anything happens?

It had details about what happened too, didn't it?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by kaitwospirit

Doesn't help us with that. The money letters were sent out on October 3rd. The messages in a bottle all vary in content and all end with no survivors, so we don't know if their writer knew that Eva survived the 5th in episode three or not. So they don't provide any evidence either way, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by kaitwospirit

In 1998, Ange talks to a Rokkenjima enthusiast who has seen the handwriting on one of the message bottles. He tells her that there were several letters found. This is in the episode three continuity. I don't know if there's any letter that directly corresponds to episode one or episode two, can't find that in the game script, but the point is that the messages in a bottle must have been written before the events of October 4-5.

I don't understand why you are concluding that the letters in the bottles must have been written before the events of October 4-5. There is nothing that confirms that the person who wrote the letters died during the incident. The fisherman found the first bottle many years after the incident.

[kaitwospirit]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

....

So how would that work? A letter written before the "crimes" asking someone to find out what really happened, is sent out in a bottle, before anything happens?

It had details about what happened too, didn't it?

It had details, but they can get things wrong. All of the letters ended with everyone dead, for example, so Eva's survival screwed things up.

Whoever wrote the letters was very certain that everyone would die, at least.