[Manga] Naruto Chapter 603 Discussion Thread

[Black-Cat-Sama]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

well, one thing that struck me in this chapter are the zetsus. they may actually be the answer to the older and taller tobi/obito we saw fight against minato. since obito is actually able to "wear" it like an artificial body (why do i keep thinking about that little alien dude wearing a human body in men in black 1? lol), then this might explain why the obito we saw fighting minato looked like an adult. it also explains why tobi's arm turned into zetsu goo when minato hit it with a rasengan. but it still doesn't explain how tobi/obito became such a force to reckon with in just a short amount of time that he was able to give minato a run for his money.

you're right, the comedy is poo!!!! i really don't understand the zetsu's fascination with poo. aren't they the least bit interested in pee?

In that fight, it was Tobi's LEFT arm that turned to goo, but in these flashbacks, we see that Obito has his left arm. Even if he was wearing the zetsu as armor during that fight, why wouldn't his real arm be revealed when the goo dripped off? Or is this another detail we're going to ignore, like everything that happened in Chapter 599

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama

In that fight, it was Tobi's LEFT arm that turned to goo, but in these flashbacks, we see that Obito has his left arm. Even if he was wearing the zetsu as armor during that fight, why wouldn't his real arm be revealed when the goo dripped off? Or is this another detail we're going to ignore, like everything that happened in Chapter 599

The flashbacks are not over, maybe he will lose another arm trying to save Rin.

[b1gdawg]

SIGH

So many things had to turn out in such weird and random ways for the TObito theory to be correct and this is exactly what Kishi is doing. He was rescued by the Zetsu, taken to a secret hide out, trained, became evil. I would wonder why Team Minato or any leaf ninja ever searched for Obito's body but now i guess Zetsu replaced it with a clone or something. Next chapter should be interesting to see how Kakashi is "to be blamed" for Rin's death, since this is probably the event Obito was talking about earlier.

And still, Obito dedicated his entire life to this plan over a crush he had when he was 12 years old? What?

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

SIGH

So many things had to turn out in such weird and random ways for the TObito theory to be correct and this is exactly what Kishi is doing. He was rescued by the Zetsu, taken to a secret hide out, trained, became evil. I would wonder why Team Minato or any leaf ninja ever searched for Obito's body but now i guess Zetsu replaced it with a clone or something. Next chapter should be interesting to see how Kakashi is "to be blamed" for Rin's death, since this is probably the event Obito was talking about earlier.

And still, Obito dedicated his entire life to this plan over a crush he had when he was 12 years old? What?

Madara likely dedicated his life as the orginator of the plan because his brother died...

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

there's still much more that needs to be explained about even revelations in this chapter. for one, obito merging with spiral zetsu doesn't totally add up because the tobi we have known takes off the spiral mask like an ordinary mask with a strap. it's not part of his body or even part of the zetsu body at that point. i could be wrong, but it looks like just a mask.

also, it does seem that obito grew his hair long enough to resemble the tobi that kisame and itachi met, but then what is the reason for him cutting it short again when he was still impersonating madara?

Maybe spiral zetsu became a friend (in the chapter he is sorta) of him and Obito killed him under Madara's instructions in order to obtain MS and wears the mask as a memento.

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

This chapter suggests that Zetsu is an artificial creation, but how could someone like Madara create him? Madara had the plan of taking some cells from the 1st hokage while fighting, but it's hard to believe that he could do it alone. First, he was mortally wounded, otherwise the 1st hokage and the entire world would not believe that he died in the VotE, so how did he survive and hide (ninja also take the dead body to prevent secrets and sharingan eyes of being stolen). Second, he is not the scientist type who takes some cells and then grows them in some underground laboratory (like Dr.Gero in DBZ) and then finds a way to create life support and androids out of a few stolen cells. Black Zetsu might be the answer. If the bodies of these androids are based on the 1st hokage's cells then it can be that their minds were created by Madara's genjutsu, and in that case if Obito fused his body with an android that could also result in some level of mind fusion, which leads to Tobi's messed up personality that carries Madara's will layered over Obito's. This would also mean that if the upper Madara-layer is broken then Obito's original personality may break out and turn against Madara. But Kakashi is at his limit, it's difficult to imagine how he could break down Tobi's mind in a fight.

Sounds like Oro might come into play in all this shodaime/experimentation stuff.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

of course he can cut his hair. my point was just that he has no logical reason to cut it if he's pretending to be madara. vice versa, he has no reason to grow it out unless he's pretending or planning on pretending to be madara.

When we were first introduced to Tobi, he wasn't pretending to be Madara. He was just Tobi - Deidara's goofy new partner. The Uchiha Madara revelation only came later when Tobi started impersonating him again. But it's not like he could just immediately grow his hair out to Madara length again. That's not how hair works ...

Clearly people mistakenly made a big deal out of the hair thing, when it really wasn't important. Hair grows. Hair can be cut. This doesn't even qualify for 'suspension of disbelief'. I don't see a problem.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

SIGH
And still, Obito dedicated his entire life to this plan over a crush he had when he was 12 years old? What?

It was Madara who dedicated his life to the plan, because the great Madara who beats everybody was beaten by Hashirama and became a loser for his entire life which was quite long as we see. And not only that, but his clan also betrayed him. When one becomes so obsessed with winning and ruling that he sacrifices his family (brother) and friends (kill best friend to obtain MS) and then he fails completely but does not die then he can really feel "forever alone". So Madara become a real loser in life, so it's no wonder that he dreamed of creating a global illusion where everything is nice and everybody is happy, and i guess he is some kind of benevolent god that is loved and worshipped by everyone. We'll see in the next chapters how he managed to brainwash Obito.

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Sounds like Oro might come into play in all this shodaime/experimentation stuff.

But the whole plan of obtaining the 1st hokage's cells/DNA happened decades before Orochimaru existed. Well, at least it seems that Madara's knowledge of how to properly combine the cells with his own body isn't on Orochimaru's level. Maybe he obtained the rinnegan eye being attached to some kind of 1st hokage DNA machine instead of upgrading his body as Kabuto did when he summoned Madara. So it was not only life support but also a machine that injects the DNA needed for the rinnegan transformation.

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

Madara likely dedicated his life as the orginator of the plan because his brother died...

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It was Madara who dedicated his life to the plan, because the great Madara who beats everybody was beaten by Hashirama and became a loser for his entire life which was quite long as we see. And not only that, but his clan also betrayed him. When one becomes so obsessed with winning and ruling that he sacrifices his family (brother) and friends (kill best friend to obtain MS) and then he fails completely but does not die then he can really feel "forever alone". So Madara become a real loser in life, so it's no wonder that he dreamed of creating a global illusion where everything is nice and everybody is happy, and i guess he is some kind of benevolent god that is loved and worshipped by everyone. We'll see in the next chapters how he managed to brainwash Obito.

Well yah what i mean is Obito obviously became Tobi and spent the majority of his Life trying to complete Madara's moon eye plan. I know he was most likely brain washed but Rin's death is obviously going to be a huge impact on Obito's decision. To spend the majority of his life over a 12 year old girl? Really? come on.

[MAX_COLA_POWER!]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

SIGH

So many things had to turn out in such weird and random ways for the TObito theory to be correct and this is exactly what Kishi is doing. He was rescued by the Zetsu, taken to a secret hide out, trained, became evil. I would wonder why Team Minato or any leaf ninja ever searched for Obito's body but now i guess Zetsu replaced it with a clone or something. Next chapter should be interesting to see how Kakashi is "to be blamed" for Rin's death, since this is probably the event Obito was talking about earlier.

And still, Obito dedicated his entire life to this plan over a crush he had when he was 12 years old? What?

And people defend this mind you, plus the fuel shown in this chapter of him fawning over Rin to the point of taking Kakashi out of the picture. You know Naruto wasn't THIS creepily obsessed with Sakura, but no, people will still defend Obito as the tragic little Naruto clone who just didn't get his way and his revenge being justified in every way because he is an Uchiha and nothing more, as decreed by the Uchiharem.

[Lunarskylar]

I wonder what the connection to the ninjas being from the hidden mist is. Is it madara (maybe using a zetsu as a remote controlled body) controlling yagura and telling the hidden mist to target bakakashi and rin?

Or is it that after obito fails to save rin from the mist, he decides to take over the hidden mist and create the bloody mist tradition out of spite?

Although considering that kid zabuza (approximately the same age as kakashi and obito) was the one who ended the tradition, wouldn't that imply that madara or 'tobi' was possessing the mizukage before obito was captured by madara?
Also if this is the origin of tobito's mask, then the tobi with the flame looking mask might be a different person, ie madara

I'm going with the remote controlled zetsu with a sharingan theory

[strategos]

I am guessing that whole Minato fight that Obito had was a loyalty test. They really didn't need the nine tails at the moment.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

When we were first introduced to Tobi, he wasn't pretending to be Madara.

yes he was. he had told kisame, itachi, nagato and konan at that time that he was madara. although of those 4, kisame was not aware that tobi was the same masked man he was introduced to before. but itachi, nagato and konan just went along with the 'tobi' shtick

But it's not like he could just immediately grow his hair out to Madara length again. That's not how hair works ...

never said it did. i'm saying growing hair so quickly doesn't make sense, nor does cutting your hair for no reason when you are impersonating someone

Clearly people mistakenly made a big deal out of the hair thing, when it really wasn't important. Hair grows. Hair can be cut. This doesn't even qualify for 'suspension of disbelief'. I don't see a problem.

tobi was and still is a mystery. kishi dropped hints here and there throughout the story as to tobi's identity and how he became the way he is. it wouldn't make sense to not question the writer's intent when altering the look of a character that is already shrouded in mystery. other ninja dont seem to have a problem keeping their hair perfectly cut. so why is obito growing his out right now?

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yes he was. he had told kisame, itachi, nagato and konan at that time that he was madara. although of those 4, kisame was not aware that tobi was the same masked man he was introduced to before. but itachi, nagato and konan just went along with the 'tobi' shtick

In other words, he was being Tobi at the time, not Madara. What matters is that, to the audience, he was most certainly Tobi. Only later did he impersonate Madara. And that's kind of beside the point, because who says he can't impersonate Madara with short hair? How many readers held onto the belief that he was "Old Madara" beneath that mask despite the short hair?

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

other ninja dont seem to have a problem keeping their hair perfectly cut. so why is obito growing his out right now?

That's not true. Kishi changed the style of his characters post time skip. Not just hair, but clothing as well. Not everything about a character's design must remain constant. Change in clothing or hair can reflect growth, maturation, or simply a different time period.

Tobi changed his hairstyle. But should we ignore the fact that he also changed his clothes and mask? When Tobi switched from the Spiral mask to the Sharinnegan mask, was it logical to conclude that there was a different person behind each of those masks? If it's one person per hairstyle, doesn't it follow that it's one person per mask as well?

Sorry. I do not understand this fixation with Tobi's hair.

Originally Posted by The Small One

And if white Zetsu can be worn by anybody, then maybe black Zetsu is also a normal Shinobi. Maybe someone we already met before.

I'm not sure if Black Zetsu is a normal shinobi. He can be separated from his white half without dying. He also has plant abilities and can travel through the ground. I think Black Zetsu might just be another artificial mazou-being with twist.

In the translation I read, it seems that there is a third Zetsu that located Rin and Kakashi. Could they be talking about Black Zetsu?

[Nintendo]

question about the very last page, is the black hair supposed to be madara rejuvenated from the rest?

EDIT: ok nevermind, i see its supposed to represent obito what he looks like inside the suit of armor.

[Dengar]

He was impersonating Madara, who was impersonating a man named Tobi who doesn't exist.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Lunarskylar

I wonder what the connection to the ninjas being from the hidden mist is. Is it madara (maybe using a zetsu as a remote controlled body) controlling yagura and telling the hidden mist to target bakakashi and rin?

Or is it that after obito fails to save rin from the mist, he decides to take over the hidden mist and create the bloody mist tradition out of spite?

Although considering that kid zabuza (approximately the same age as kakashi and obito) was the one who ended the tradition, wouldn't that imply that madara or 'tobi' was possessing the mizukage before obito was captured by madara?
Also if this is the origin of tobito's mask, then the tobi with the flame looking mask might be a different person, ie madara

I'm going with the remote controlled zetsu with a sharingan theory

I was thinking about the same thing, we see here that Obito grew a long hair, and that is how "Madara" looked when he revealed himself to Kisame. I guess Kishimoto will follow the same path as he did with Sasuke: first Obito is enraged like Sasuke, so he creates the "blood mist" so that the mist ninja would kill each other and in the end the village is destroyed by a stronger country, and in the second phase he calms down like Sasuke did recently.
But the huge personality change in only a few years cannot be explained by that, so it had to be his fusion with a Madara-controlled Zetsu clone. That would also explain the vast knowledge about the ninja world, the ability to manipulate the kyuubi, and that the kyuubi and others thought it was the real Madara (Zetsu can become someone else so that nobody can sense any difference). The Zetsu cloak that also has either mind control or can take over the body is pretty good idea from Kishimoto because it would remove all the largest plot holes. And then only minor plot holes remain, that are also present from the beginning of the manga, so we wouldn't have too much to complain about.

BTW Itachi meeting the long haired Tobito might explain how the "bloody mist" story ended.

One thing that should be explain but might remain a plot hole is: where are Obito's parents and how come Obito only mentions Rin and Kakashi but not his parents. And of course why does he accept Itachi's offer to wipe out his own clan and with that his parents.

[Dengar]

Well right now he's not interested in wiping out the clan yet. And why he doesn't mention his parents? His parents aren't his friends.

[Om Nerabdator]

At last we get to see what happened to rin

[HasuMasu]

Great chapter, why did Kishi have to make me like the Zetsus...